The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Nymrohd]

Don't forget the tiny little issue of "how do we even pull this off", because they also show a blatant disregard for the insane scope of their ideas. Blizzard way overstretched with Cata, but the whole team revamp just assumes that problem magically disappeared since.

First off, while I am not going into specifics because I am not looking at getting banned again, you could look around to see what players without dev tools have managed to create using WoW assets. It is very impressive.
Second, there absolutely are ideas whose scope is insane and I agree with you on that. But there are also ideas that are entirely possible. The following seem to be the scenarios most often discussed.

The full revamp idea in which the entire world is remade from scratch and on a larger scale at that is just a pipe dream. Oh they absolutely could create a world model like that (see above) but populating it with quests, events and NPCs would take far more time. It's the equivalent of making 4+ expansions at once.

But

The partial revamp idea in which instead of adding a new set of 4-5 zones they revamp one of the subcontinents of Azeroth is no more work than an expansion. The six obvious subcontinents of Azeroth (North, Central, South Kalimdor, Lordaeron, Khaz Modan, Azeroth) are all somewhat similar in area to Dragon Isles (and likely smaller than Dragon Isles will be when we account for all post-launch zones). The main issue ofc is that having anywhere from three to six expansions devoted to revamping the world could prove very boring. On the issue of scaling, zone borders can be changed to create bigger zones so rescaling would not be necessary. Most old world zones are singular biomes; modern zones tend to have three on average.

Then ofc outside revamp we have ideas for a visual update. That is very much possible. We've talked about it, most world objects can be seamlessly replaced without disturbing existing quests and mobs. There would still be a lot of work to do, especially with things like the Quel'thalas/Lordaeron border as well as many coastal areas that don't need to be populated but still would need to be finished to modern standard. The issue with a visual update ofc is that unless it comes together with a partial revamp, it doesn't have relevant content

Another thing is the idea that if they are planning a revamp, they have been working at it for a while. I am not really sure about that. Yes they have created many world objects but the evidence for a new world model is not there as far as I know. They have gotten better at hiding things but that's a fairly recent thing.

I still think we are getting Avaloren (and hope they actually stretch it out into a two-expansion arc and make it huge) but I don't think that all of the scenarios above are impossible. Yes, a full revamp probably is. But not the other options.

[ImTheMizAwesome]

Updated Dark Shore and Arathi are not wild and exciting new places to explore.

I mean speak for yourself, because for me updated warfront zones were exciting to explore everything plus new music, faming elite mobs for rewards and seeing references.
Im still disappointed that we didn't get Southern Barrens warfront.

The thing it was lacking was a proper, long new storyline attached and overall wider reaching systems and these are the things i would hope at least partial revamp would be based upon, also connecting some areas with each other.

[Nymrohd]

I mean speak for yourself, because for me updated warfront zones were exciting to explore everything plus new music, faming elite mobs for rewards and seeing references.
Im still disappointed that we didn't get Southern Barrens warfront.

The thing it was lacking was a proper, long new storyline attached and overall wider reaching systems and these are the things i would hope at least partial revamp would be based upon, also connecting some areas with each other.

I honestly found updated Dark Shore underwhelming. They did not really update elven ruin models (even though they could have used those in Suramar for that purpose) nor did they make any changes to the dramatic cataclysm landscape (like the tornado and lava in the middle of the zone)

[Mecheon]

Don't forget the tiny little issue of "how do we even pull this off", because they also show a blatant disregard for the insane scope of their ideas. Blizzard way overstretched with Cata, but the whole team revamp just assumes that problem magically disappeared since.

Yeah. I have Ideas on how it can be pulled off. But they're awkward and weird ideas that I am also very aware aren't feasible.

I completely understand the desire for a revamp, but the desire for a revamp doesn't quite hit the reality of it.

I honestly found updated Dark Shore underwhelming. They did not really update elven ruin models (even though they could have used those in Suramar for that purpose) nor did they make any changes to the dramatic cataclysm landscape (like the tornado and lava in the middle of the zone)

I'm faiirly sure this ia a limitation of phasing. There's only so much they can change with phasing, so a lot of the regular topology can't be adjusted. So, they worked it in

[ImTheMizAwesome]

I honestly found updated Dark Shore underwhelming. They did not really update elven ruin models (even though they could have used those in Suramar for that purpose) nor did they make any changes to the dramatic cataclysm landscape (like the tornado and lava in the middle of the zone)

I think arathi was done miles better than Darkshore, but still enjoyed DS.

The barrens warfront would probably end up my favorite if they actually went for it, because i like it the most from the 3, i think if partially revamp would happen they would make more dramatic changes to the zones to make them feel really new.

You just put progression systems and actual long and more cinematic storylines, revamp elites and some rewards to chase(carrot on a stick) and people won't care if it's new island or revamped original zone, you will have new players that never really experienced OG zones and old players having some nostalgia hit plus new feeling to experience the zones in different way.


Full revamp from the scratch of everything is a pipe dream and i don't think it will ever happen, but partial revamp that gets expanded patch by patch is something that can.

[Nymrohd]

I'm faiirly sure this ia a limitation of phasing. There's only so much they can change with phasing, so a lot of the regular topology can't be adjusted. So, they worked it in

Is that true? I am reminded of even early phasing like Redridge where the world model changes. Ofc it was also bugged as hell and you could see all the NPCs falling through the world while approaching and the world model was switching before they could switch as well.

- - - Updated - - -

I think arathi was done miles better than Darkshore, but still enjoyed DS.

The barrens warfront would probably end up my favorite if they actually went for it, because i like it the most from the 3, i think if partially revamp would happen they would make more dramatic changes to the zones to make them feel really new.

You just put progression systems and actual long and more cinematic storylines, revamp elites and some rewards to chase(carrot on a stick) and people won't care if it's new island or revamped original zone, you will have new players that never really experienced OG zones and old players having some nostalgia hit plus new feeling to experience the zones in different way.


Full revamp from the scratch of everything is a pipe dream and i don't think it will ever happen, but partial revamp that gets expanded patch by patch is something that can.

Honestly I wish we had Barrens Warfronts because
a) 4 versions of Dwarven and Tauren high quality weapon and armor mogs
b) it would have been an opportunity for Baine to be less of a wimp

[Chickat]

Yes. Silverpine is Revendreth(?), Feralas is the spriggand pool in Val'sharah, Dustwallow is Nazmir, Tirisfal is Drustvar, Stonetalon is Highmountain, STV is Zuldazar, Loch Modan is Tiragarde Sound, Durotar is Gorgrond.

That said, this does present an interesting point of discussion, in that a 100% revamped zone can potentially vastly change the main color aesthetic for a zone. Draenor nagrand has a much more orange fringed look compared to Outland Nagrand's yellow, Terokkar is dark green-blue, but Talador is autumnal red-orange.

Should zones keep their old coloration or be updated to something new?



Should Tanaris be it's classic sort of pale yellow/egg-shell with yellow-orange mountain spikes, or should it be a full white sand desert? Should Elwynn stay yellow-green or move to a more forest green?

I think they would just recolor the texture if they reused the Voldun sand one.

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So WoW tiktok account posted this a few days ago.

I know they are updating the lighting and fog, but does Silithus/southern kalimdor not look more modern to you guys?

Could this be teasing the revamp, or is it just the same area with new lighting and fog.

https://www.tiktok.com/@warcraft/vid...50426602261803

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Don't forget the tiny little issue of "how do we even pull this off", because they also show a blatant disregard for the insane scope of their ideas. Blizzard way overstretched with Cata, but the whole team revamp just assumes that problem magically disappeared since.

The WoW team is at least twice as big now, if not even bigger. Plus they have a ton of assets they can use from over the years. It can be done. You just dont want it.

[Schwert]

It's so weird to me that people say a revamp to Eastern Kingdoms / Kalimdor is bad because it's not "new content".
How is entirely reworking zones and redoing the stories and quests and content in them not "new content"? Hundreds of new quests, cosmetics, world quests, PvP areas, ect ect. It'd be no different than something entirely made up.

Nostalgia sells.
Look at the Pokemon franchise and how hard they milk generation 1.
Literally the same concept on a smaller scale.

People who care about Warcraft want more Warcraft. The further away the game strays from it's core, the more convoluted it becomes.
A return to simplicity where we get entirely new content in nostalgic zones that moves the story forwards isn't a bad thing.

I want to care about Night Elves and Worgen and actually get content for Void Elves. Introducing yet another useless NPC race and doing world building for them, all while spinning the roulette on what trendy aesthetic the newly made up zones are gonna be ain't it.
The story needs to move forwards.
We are not moving the story forwards by just adding new zones that have nothing to do with the original story constantly.

You know what'd be exciting to explore?
Stuff people actually care about not being destroyed and stuck in a state of "oh no giant dragon burnt everything".

[Pyrophax]

I think they would just recolor the texture if they reused the Voldun sand one.

- - - Updated - - -

So WoW tiktok account posted this a few days ago.

I know they are updating the lighting and fog, but does Silithus/southern kalimdor not look more modern to you guys?

Could this be teasing the revamp, or is it just the same area with new lighting and fog.

https://www.tiktok.com/@warcraft/vid...50426602261803

- - - Updated - - -



The WoW team is at least twice as big now, if not even bigger. Plus they have a ton of assets they can use from over the years. It can be done. You just dont want it.

I think that to make it work, aside from 0 wish from devs, zones must be merged and unlarged. And if there will be 2-6 expansions with it - how draw line between revamped and not-revamped zones? Make glass wall? Make shadow wall? Or make completely separated Kalimdor/EK from current zones?
And not all zones could be enlarged and merged.
For example - if, I repeat IF zones will be megred - what to remove? Again - for example Tanaris+Uldum+Silithus can be cool sand zone, with Old gods, qiraji and pirates. But for single zone there is too much story and content. Farraki, pirates, Bronze dragonflight, qiraji, Tolvirs, and Uldum titan stuff. I think its to much for single zone, but too little for expansion. Theoretically it is possible to cut Bronzes, make Farraki (that lived and not massacred to this day) friendly and cut Titan stuff from Uldum. Make it more about Old God corruption, with titan stuff to be some patch content for future. With side stories about Gadgetzan and pirates.
Or how merge Desolace? Or Ungoro+Feralas?

[Schwert]

Quite a bit of the work that goes into designing a zone is already done when it comes to a revamp.
We know the zone themes, a large portion of art assets are already done and seemingly have been worked on for years now, a very large portion of potential story elements are already in place, the original layouts for the zones are already there, ect ect.

It takes a lot of time and effort to design and make quests and their rewards, but like, comparing the difficulty and time of creating something like Bastion or the Azure Span from scratch to remaking Elwynn Forest isn't as comparable as people against this want it to be. Even if they wound up doing the zones from scratch to completely update them for something like dragon flying, it's still less work. Still a lot of work, but they don't need nearly as much concept and drafting.

We don't know exactly how Blizzard's pipeline works, but when multiple pipes are suddenly shorter, and they've potentially had more plumbers working for a while, you can cover a lot of ground rather quickly.

As somebody with a love for narrative design, I'd rather work on updating something already existing I know decently well than have to create something entirely from scratch too, especially with the amount of detail work they've been doing with the NPC races in Dragonflight. The amount of research and writing it takes to actually flesh that stuff out? Yeah, give me the Scarlets or a troll tribe instead - days to weeks saved in that regard.

[Lahis]

So WoW tiktok account posted this a few days ago.

I know they are updating the lighting and fog, but does Silithus/southern kalimdor not look more modern to you guys?

Could this be teasing the revamp, or is it just the same area with new lighting and fog.

https://www.tiktok.com/@warcraft/vid...50426602261803

That is just wordless Silithus phase with the new draw distance and fog that implemented in 10.1.5. Just playing on the "Sword? What sword?" meme.

[Mecheon]

It's so weird to me that people say a revamp to Eastern Kingdoms / Kalimdor is bad because it's not "new content".
How is entirely reworking zones and redoing the stories and quests and content in them not "new content"? Hundreds of new quests, cosmetics, world quests, PvP areas, ect ect. It'd be no different than something entirely made up.

Nostalgia sells.
Look at the Pokemon franchise and how hard they milk generation 1.
Literally the same concept on a smaller scale.

People who care about Warcraft want more Warcraft. The further away the game strays from it's core, the more convoluted it becomes.
A return to simplicity where we get entirely new content in nostalgic zones that moves the story forwards isn't a bad thing.

I want to care about Night Elves and Worgen and actually get content for Void Elves. Introducing yet another useless NPC race and doing world building for them, all while spinning the roulette on what trendy aesthetic the newly made up zones are gonna be ain't it.
The story needs to move forwards.
We are not moving the story forwards by just adding new zones that have nothing to do with the original story constantly.

You know what'd be exciting to explore?
Stuff people actually care about not being destroyed and stuck in a state of "oh no giant dragon burnt everything".

That's the thing though, we saw what happened in Cata. People are only concerned about endgame. For all of the quests Cata added, how many did you go back and do at high level? How many Dragonflight side quests did you go back and finish once you hit max level? Go back and experience good stories there?

Because if you're did, you're one of the few

There absolutely is a desire to update the world but it has to be balanced with the fact that people want new things, and even riding on nostalgia, there's only so much you can adjust the existing things. Plus, there's roughly 40 zones worth of content before the two, even if we don't touch some like Vashj'ir's three zones

I think that to make it work, aside from 0 wish from devs, zones must be merged and unlarged. And if there will be 2-6 expansions with it - how draw line between revamped and not-revamped zones? Make glass wall? Make shadow wall? Or make completely separated Kalimdor/EK from current zones?
And not all zones could be enlarged and merged.
For example - if, I repeat IF zones will be megred - what to remove? Again - for example Tanaris+Uldum+Silithus can be cool sand zone, with Old gods, qiraji and pirates. But for single zone there is too much story and content. Farraki, pirates, Bronze dragonflight, qiraji, Tolvirs, and Uldum titan stuff. I think its to much for single zone, but too little for expansion. Theoretically it is possible to cut Bronzes, make Farraki (that lived and not massacred to this day) friendly and cut Titan stuff from Uldum. Make it more about Old God corruption, with titan stuff to be some patch content for future. With side stories about Gadgetzan and pirates.
Or how merge Desolace? Or Ungoro+Feralas?

While I'm "I don't think they can get it working" on a revamp, I'm actively against zone merging. What do we gain from it? Silithus, Tanaris and Uldum each have their own seperate vibe, their own seperate things to them, why should they be just the one zone?

They had to split zones in Cata for a good reason

[Nymrohd]

That's the thing though, we saw what happened in Cata. People are only concerned about endgame. For all of the quests Cata added, how many did you go back and do at high level? How many Dragonflight side quests did you go back and finish once you hit max level? Go back and experience good stories there?

Because if you're did, you're one of the few

There absolutely is a desire to update the world but it has to be balanced with the fact that people want new things, and even riding on nostalgia, there's only so much you can adjust the existing things. Plus, there's roughly 40 zones worth of content before the two, even if we don't touch some like Vashj'ir's three zones



While I'm "I don't think they can get it working" on a revamp, I'm actively against zone merging. What do we gain from it? Silithus, Tanaris and Uldum each have their own seperate vibe, their own seperate things to them, why should they be just the one zone?

They had to split zones in Cata for a good reason

Most of the max level content we get in a new expansion is just leveling content that is upscaled. Almost every world quest is part of that, half the dungeons are leveling dungeons, events are often tied to the stories of the leveling experience. What exactly would be keeping them in the post-Legion World Quests and Events paradigm from doing the same? There absolutely are issues with revamp concepts but this is just not one of them.

[Skildar]

I don't understand when I read that : remaking old zones from scratch and transforming them into at the same time leveling and endgame zones wouldn't work or isn't a revamp

Then how would you call it? Why wouldn't it work? There is enough opportunity to make some new and staggering visuals and deep stories to be told that would involve many known characters. And more importantly this isa very occasion to grow alliance and horde stories and identities.

[Pyrophax]

That's the thing though, we saw what happened in Cata. People are only concerned about endgame. For all of the quests Cata added, how many did you go back and do at high level? How many Dragonflight side quests did you go back and finish once you hit max level? Go back and experience good stories there?

Because if you're did, you're one of the few

There absolutely is a desire to update the world but it has to be balanced with the fact that people want new things, and even riding on nostalgia, there's only so much you can adjust the existing things. Plus, there's roughly 40 zones worth of content before the two, even if we don't touch some like Vashj'ir's three zones



While I'm "I don't think they can get it working" on a revamp, I'm actively against zone merging. What do we gain from it? Silithus, Tanaris and Uldum each have their own seperate vibe, their own seperate things to them, why should they be just the one zone?

They had to split zones in Cata for a good reason

Kalimdor



I think more about just like that. We have 3 (2 starter zones + leveling one - Barrens) zones for Horde, 3 zones for Alliance (2 starter zones + leveling one - Ashenvale) and Sand zone and forest zone for patch content. Ungoro and Winterspring as mini-patch zones.
And remove much of mountains. I undertand that it was placed for separating zones, but come on, its not aged well.

[Nymrohd]

While I'm "I don't think they can get it working" on a revamp, I'm actively against zone merging. What do we gain from it? Silithus, Tanaris and Uldum each have their own seperate vibe, their own seperate things to them, why should they be just the one zone?

They had to split zones in Cata for a good reason

How many biomes and how many stories does Azure Span tell?

[Xilurm]

If they do make a revamp, they need to make sure that the core races all have their own set of starting zones that don't get wrecked by the time you finish levelling in them. That way you can revisit them in the future and they'll be just like you left them.

I was looking forward to the whole "living world" thing where zones and places change based on your actions, but this just makes me miss how the zone was originally.

Anyway, the core races (Classic-Cata races) should have their own set of starting zones.

Humans for example never changed. Elwynn Forest, Westfall (even though in a constant state of war, which is the problem I am talking about), Redridge and Duskwood are there.

Dwarves and Gnomes have Dun Morogh, Loch Modan and Wetlands.

Night Elves have... Ashenvale. And even that is halfway messed up and in a state of war. So they don't really have a proper zone for themselves do they? I doubt that Teldrassil is ever coming back in any shape or form even with a Revamp, so while Darkshore is somewhat salvageable, they'd need a different zone as well. Felwood should've been cleansed by now surely. So that, Darkshore and Ashenvale can be the new ones.

Draenei have Azuremyst and Bloodmyst Isles and with a revamp they will probably be connected seamlessly to the rest of Kalimdor.

I'll talk about Worgen in a bit...

As for the Horde side, the Orcs and Trolls have Durotar and as much as I hate to admit it, Azshara is supposed to be their 2nd levelling zone, correct? Along with the Barrens.

Tauren also have Mulgore and share the Barrens with the Trolls and the Orcs.

Speaking of the Barrens, they should definitely combine them into one zone again, put some bridges over the gap which is probably not burning anymore and there you have it.

Now, speaking of the Worgen AND the Forsaken, assuming the Worgen get back Gilneas (and they better do tbh), and the Forsaken get back Lordaeron, which we know they will, should they share zones in Silverpine? Or should the Forsaken have their 2nd zone be Western Plaguelands?

[Hitei]

I mean speak for yourself, because for me updated warfront zones were exciting to explore everything plus new music, faming elite mobs for rewards and seeing references.
Im still disappointed that we didn't get Southern Barrens warfront.

The thing it was lacking was a proper, long new storyline attached and overall wider reaching systems and these are the things i would hope at least partial revamp would be based upon, also connecting some areas with each other.

I have a hard time believing you, because there is objectively almost nothing to explore. It's still the nearly identical zone it has been since Cata launch. I believe that you enjoyed looking around at the nicer looking version, I did too, that you flew through the zone just for the sake of seeing the "new version" (probably once?) and checking if there was anything different--but I really can't buy that you spent a large amount of time "exploring" a zone that is 96% the same as it has been for 10 years.

I feel like that's sort of self evident in your post. It wasn't even exciting enough for "exciting to explore" to stand on its own in your mind. You felt the need to pad it's value with "there's new music" and "farming elite mobs". Your first inclination wasn't to post about memorable first views, or location discoveries, because there weren't any. It's not like you were shocked there was a giant monster skeleton sticking out of the ground when you came upon it. The whole zone was just the same views in higher fidelity. You having fun in the zone is different from exciting exploration

You also have to consider the larger picture. You had fun in those zones as a .1 patch for an expansion with two entire brand new, never seen before continents. What we're talking about though is an expansion where every zone is just Darkshore. Zones you've seen a hundred times before, but with nicer textures and higher poly trees and a handful of new buildings.

A revamp expansion that isn't a remake is an expansion of knowns. One that has no exploration.

You make a new undead character and it starts in Stratholme--pretty neat, right?--your map is undiscovered, blank because you haven't visited anywhere yet, but before you pick up that first quest, you've already explored everything. Your first question isn't "(exploration) what's outside this cool gate, or down that road, or through this mountain pass?". You know what is outside the gate, EPL. And next to it, WPL > Tirisfal > Silverpine > Hillsbrad > Arath > Wetlands... you know what's down the "road" all the way to the opposite end of the entire continent: Booty Bay, and where the flight paths are in that town, and exactly what turns to take when walking down the roads to get all the way there without ever consulting your map. Your first question instead is ""What's changed with the town, Corin's Crossing that I know is out of this gate and down the road to the south? Are there still mindless undead in it?" It's no longer about exploration, it's about updating the status of a whole bunch of things you already know about in thorough detail.

Speaking as someone who could stomach but wouldn't prefer it: I do not think that most of the playerbase would enjoy an expansion with nowhere new to explore.

[ImTheMizAwesome]

I have a hard time believing you, because there is objectively almost nothing to explore. It's still the nearly identical zone it has been since Cata launch. I believe that you enjoyed looking around at the nicer looking version, I did too, that you flew through the zone just for the sake of seeing the "new version" (probably once?) and checking if there was anything different--but I really can't buy that you spent a large amount of time "exploring" a zone that is 96% the same as it has been for 10 years.

You don't have to believe me and i won't be trying to sell this idea to you in hours long discussions, when you are clearly against that after reading some of your posts and your opinion is already set in stone.

It would be just a waste of time, honestly.

[Xilurm]

Did the devs actually say they messed up with the Cata revamp? Why did they think that?