The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Cheezits]

Also: the Shadowlands being a scam would make Zovaal 200% more justified, and also explain why Denathrius would even help him if he truly wanted to end the universe as well (I think they will make it so he manipulated Zovaal, as Nathrezim do).

They are robot slaves. They became self-aware, and want to destroy the universe and make a better one without their masters. Either Denny truly vibed with the idea or he was doing everything he could to escape the Shadowlands at any cost.

Now, how much the Primus knows is up in the air. I have a feeling that with the Aman'thul and "old man" aesthetic connection he absolutely could be an informant for the Titans and perpetuating the lie.

[Limayria]

I would hate this, as it would prove WoW is afraid to move on from the Titans or anything like that.

Also, a Constellar being drawn to the Sepulcher would just mean not every Constellar is bound to the Titans.

- - - Updated - - -

I mean, it is possible this could be a scam, but I would prefer it a ton if it wasn't. From their magics, to Odyn's edicts, etc, I'd rather they just be their own thing.

The first one bullshit isn't moving on from the titans, it's quite literally returning to the original status quo of titans as distant creator gods, just changing what they're called from "titans" to "first ones"

How would you explain things existing before the shadowlands if the first ones really did create the entire universe?

[milkmustache]

I would hate this, as it would prove WoW is afraid to move on from the Titans or anything like that.

Also, a Constellar being drawn to the Sepulcher would just mean not every Constellar is bound to the Titans.

- - - Updated - - -

I mean, it is possible this could be a scam, but I would prefer it a ton if it wasn't. From their magics, to Odyn's edicts, etc, I'd rather they just be their own thing.

I personally subscribe to the idea that the Shadowlands being retconned to being some form of Titan control over the "afterlife" and them being the First Ones would be a great turn for the story--

I know you tend to be a fan of the way it was presented... but how would you feel if doing this allowed space for Blizzard to actually explore what a realm of death could look like outside of any ordering or structuring we saw in Shadowlands?

[Cheezits]

I personally subscribe to the idea that the Shadowlands being retconned to being some form of Titan control over the "afterlife" and them being the First Ones would be a great turn for the story--

I know you tend to be a fan of the way it was presented... but how would you feel if doing this allowed space for Blizzard to actually explore what a realm of death could look like outside of any ordering or structuring we saw in Shadowlands?

I honestly think it may have been the plan from the start. Just look at "Oribos" and how they refused to reveal Zovaal's motivation. However, they didn't make a satisfying product- as we saw with the Sylvanas and Teldrassil stories, a six+ year story doesn't matter to a monthly, paying customer. If the Shadowlands was made clinical and cold on purpose, and that something was off about it, they should've made it very apparent that was the case instead of playing it completely straight and then revealing the truth years upon years later.

Brokers = Ethereals is a coinflip on whether it was flagrant Danuser OC or a hint. Nobody ever bringing up Ethereals in the expansion itself was again, ridiculous. Nathria = Nathrezim should have been in launch.

[Joshuaj]

The first one bullshit isn't moving on from the titans, it's quite literally returning to the original status quo of titans as distant creator gods, just changing what they're called from "titans" to "first ones"

How would you explain things existing before the shadowlands if the first ones really did create the entire universe?

The First Ones and the Titans are similar in that they are mysterious entities, but their similarities completely end there. The Titans were never stated in the old lore to be creators. They found chaotic worlds, ordered them, then seeded life on them.

The First Ones are stated to have CREATED the entire universe and it's laws.

[Cheezits]

The First Ones and the Titans are similar in that they are mysterious entities, but their similarities completely end there. The Titans were never stated in the old lore to be creators. They found chaotic worlds, ordered them, then seeded life on them.

The First Ones are stated to have CREATED the entire universe and it's laws.

By a bunch of unreliable narrators, several of which are literal robots with ghost souls.

[Joshuaj]

I personally subscribe to the idea that the Shadowlands being retconned to being some form of Titan control over the "afterlife" and them being the First Ones would be a great turn for the story--

I know you tend to be a fan of the way it was presented... but how would you feel if doing this allowed space for Blizzard to actually explore what a realm of death could look like outside of any ordering or structuring we saw in Shadowlands?

Why? What would be the point of the Shadowlands being fake? I love the idea of me potentially having a paradise afterlife when I die. I don't want that to be some fake bullshit.

- - - Updated - - -

By a bunch of unreliable narrators, several of which are literal robots with ghost souls.

"Unreliable narrators"

Blizzard themselves talked about the First Ones creating everything what? ODYN, the prime designate of the Keepers doubled down on it.

[Worldshaper]

Re: Elune, I'd also like to point out that she is already part of a "cycle": that of the sun and moon, or day and night. An'she and Musha.

So as far as all the Shadowlands lore goes, I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being another case of the way they interpret the cosmos in there. Just like their cosmology chart was different from the one we got from the Titans.

If anything, Elune seems like a very diplomatic person, striking deals and forming alliances (and dalliances) left and right.

- Lover of Malorne (life).
- Great love of Eonar (order).
- Sister of the Winter Queen (death).

But again returning to the "Elune's Chosen" talent tree, notice it's all about Arcane damage, moons, and stars.

While it's certainly possible Elune is a Life deiety of some type of Pantheon of Life (I won't rule anything out), I'm also very mindful of the fact that Naaru and other beings of the Light have always sought to protect and foster Life throughout the universe.

The Shards of Light suffused worlds with life, creating Elementals and so on. Then Naaru went on their great cosmic quest to protect it.

So I could definitely see a scenario play out in which Elune is revealed to be a being of Light and Shadow, seeking to protect and spread Life throughout the cosmos. In so doing, she might take on various roles and form friendships with people who might aid her cause.

Perhaps she charmed Malorne and Eonar, seeking to bring about world trees, Wild Gods and Kaldorei.

Maybe she worked closely alongside the Winter Queen for many ages, setting up an intricate system for Life and Death (the great cycle) in order to fuel her eternal army of Wild Gods, Night Elves and other beings. To the point where they saw each others as "sisters".

[Joshuaj]

Re: Elune, I'd also like to point out that she is already part of a "cycle": that of the sun and moon, or day and night. An'she and Musha.

So as far as all the Shadowlands lore goes, I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being another case of the way they interpret the cosmos in there. Just like their cosmology chart was different from the one we got from the Titans.

If anything, Elune seems like a very diplomatic person, striking deals and forming alliances (and dalliances) left and right.

- Lover of Malorne (life).
- Great love of Eonar (order).
- Sister of the Winter Queen (death).

But again returning to the "Elune's Chosen" talent tree, notice it's all about Arcane damage, moons, and stars.

While it's certainly possible Elune is a Life deiety of some type of Pantheon of Life (I won't rule anything out), I'm also very mindful of the fact that Naaru and other beings of the Light have always sought to protect and foster Life throughout the universe.

The Shards of Light suffused worlds with life, creating Elementals and so on. Then Naaru went on their great cosmic quest to protect it.

So I could definitely see a scenario play out in which Elune is revealed to be a being of Light and Shadow, seeking to protect and spread Life throughout the cosmos. In so doing, she might take on various roles and form friendships with people who might aid her cause.

Perhaps she charmed Malorne and Eonar, seeking to bring about world trees, Wild Gods and Kaldorei.

Maybe she worked closely alongside the Winter Queen for many ages, setting up an intricate system for Life and Death (the great cycle) in order to fuel her eternal army of Wild Gods, Night Elves and other beings. To the point where they saw each others as "sisters".

We don't know if Elune's link to the astral cycle is connected to Mu'sha and An'she. Maybe it is, but that's speculation. Also, again, you can be a Life Goddess and have connections to different forces. That's the literal point of the Cosmic Pattern.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Also: the Shadowlands being a scam would make Zovaal 200% more justified, and also explain why Denathrius would even help him if he truly wanted to end the universe as well (I think they will make it so he manipulated Zovaal, as Nathrezim do).

They are robot slaves. They became self-aware, and want to destroy the universe and make a better one without their masters. Either Denny truly vibed with the idea or he was doing everything he could to escape the Shadowlands at any cost.

Now, how much the Primus knows is up in the air. I have a feeling that with the Aman'thul and "old man" aesthetic connection he absolutely could be an informant for the Titans and perpetuating the lie.

God this would have been a perfect way to fix SL.

Make all of it fake and sylvanas wanted to get rid of the Titan prison of a false after life and the jailer won her over with proof that it was all a scam. We stop the jailer but also just flat out destroy the shadowlands freeing all the souls to go to a true unknown afterlife.

It would have fixed all the problems of undermining all the various cultures afterlife’s by leaving them up in the air after the fake ones were destroyed and would have been great build up to the titans being bad and not the non sense anti vaxx dragons.

[Cheezits]

Why? What would be the point of the Shadowlands being fake? I love the idea of me potentially having a paradise afterlife when I die. I don't want that to be some fake bullshit.

Because Maldraxxus and, to an extent, Ardenweald are what logically a realm of death should be like in Warcraft's universe. Necomancy and some natural decay. Not a soul engine of ten billion zillion afterlifes created by a big machine that connects to six other machines and also there's a hell world where they extract sin energy etc.

There are hints here and there that that was exactly what the Shadowlands was before SOMETHING happened- Marsaminus was chilling and then Winter Queen suddenly popped up. She didn't make Ardenweald but she suddenly was just there. How did that happen? Who made her? Why did they make her and not Marsamnius?

The infinite shit is all pointing to something coming in and rearranging a world that was already there. Just like how they borderline confirmed that the Dream is the same thing in the realm of Life.

The titans cannot create organic life- they just fuck with it. And make robots.

[Khaza-R]

Also: the Shadowlands being a scam would make Zovaal 200% more justified, and also explain why Denathrius would even help him if he truly wanted to end the universe as well (I think they will make it so he manipulated Zovaal, as Nathrezim do).

They are robot slaves. They became self-aware, and want to destroy the universe and make a better one without their masters. Either Denny truly vibed with the idea or he was doing everything he could to escape the Shadowlands at any cost.

Now, how much the Primus knows is up in the air. I have a feeling that with the Aman'thul and "old man" aesthetic connection he absolutely could be an informant for the Titans and perpetuating the lie.

I thought that was the direction it was going in tbh and wonder if that was the original intent but they pivoted from it.

The Arbiter and its servants being literal foreign machines sorting souls to articial afterlives. The whole thing really just one prison. Making the Jailer's title even more ironic considering he was the original Arbiter. The devourers representing the raw, natural state of the Shadowlands. More like the ouroboros we saw in Chronicle chart.

[Worldshaper]

We don't know if Elune's link to the astral cycle is connected to Mu'sha and An'she. Maybe it is, but that's speculation. Also, again, you can be a Life Goddess and have connections to different forces. That's the literal point of the Cosmic Pattern.

We don't know anything, to be fair. In 2016 we thought for sure that we held all the answers with Chronicles Vol. 1. Then came the next book, and the next expansion, and so on...

But we do know that the powers she grants are seemingly always themed around the arcane/light/shadow and so on. She helps others spread life but I can't recall seeing much of her using Life magic?

[Cheezits]

I thought that was the direction it was going in tbh and wonder if that was the original intent but they pivoted from it.

The Arbiter and its servants being literal foreign machines sorting souls to articial afterlives. The whole thing really just one prison. Making the Jailer's title even more ironic considering he was the original Arbiter. The devourers representing the raw, natural state of the Shadowlands. More like the ouroboros we saw in Chronicle chart.

I think it is legitimately the original idea, they just, for whatever reason, didn't confirm it. Maybe because it was too "negative" of a gutpunch to reveal the Titans were that insane, and they were scared of the fan reaction? They were again building up to Titans being cruel in Dragonflight but, again, pivoted. Evil Tyr hints at launch and fucking outright saying Tyrhold is meant to secretly "Titanize" dragons.

Now they are kicking that can down to TLT. I think they are genuinely concerned about the reveal and how fans will take it.

[Joshuaj]

The design of the First Ones makes it to where the cosmic influences and the primal influences can interact with eachother and work off of one another, whether it be from the cosmic embodiments which lord over the powers, or from the nature of the influences themselves. That's why the intersections of the pattern exist, that's why reality is the way it is. That's why the Shadowlands has a form of structure in it, that's why Elune and Xe'ra have connections, that's why the Dreadlords can infiltrate the other forces, that's why the Titans can be allowed to affect the Dream or wield lots of other magics, that's why light crystals in the Beyond can become sources for life, etc.

Shall I bring up more examples? Or is this enough? Kinda wanna end this argument to discuss potential 11.2 and Midnight stuff.

- - - Updated - - -

We don't know anything, to be fair. In 2016 we thought for sure that we held all the answers with Chronicles Vol. 1. Then came the next book, and the next expansion, and so on...

But we do know that the powers she grants are seemingly always themed around the arcane/light/shadow and so on. She helps others spread life but I can't recall seeing much of her using Life magic?

The Tears of Elune, her link to the Druids, and the fucking World Seed are clear examples of Elune utilizing Life magics. She can use other magics, and that still wouldn't negate her true nature.

- - - Updated - - -

I think it is legitimately the original idea, they just, for whatever reason, didn't confirm it. Maybe because it was too "negative" of a gutpunch to reveal the Titans were that insane, and they were scared of the fan reaction? They were again building up to Titans being cruel in Dragonflight but, again, pivoted. Evil Tyr hints at launch and fucking outright saying Tyrhold is meant to secretly "Titanize" dragons.

Now they are kicking that can down to TLT. I think they are genuinely concerned about the reveal and how fans will take it.

Wouldn't this go against the Titans wanting to he credited for everything tho?

[Cheezits]

Wouldn't this go against the Titans wanting to he credited for everything tho?

I think it's a plotpoint that the Titans are not known in the Shadowlands (AFAIK) but the First Ones are. They are just the same thing, and the lie is to keep the Shadowlands denizens from going apeshit and discovering that they are all slaves to a big perpetual battery.

Zovaal realized this and went crazy- and GUESS who was #1 on burying him in superhell? Primus.

[Eldryth]

Don't forget that the Emerald Dream was all but confirmed to be an unnatural alteration to the Realm of Life back in Dragonflight, too. The Titans seemingly carved a part out of another force's home to make it.

And given that it is the part of the Realm of Life that Ardenweald is linked to, and therefore the part that Elune should be overseeing, it already restored Elune's mysterious nature. Why would a normal member of the Pantheon of Life be ruling over an unnatural incursion into their domain? Just one thing that doesn't fit with the "explanation" we got back in Shadowlands.

Also, even if you gloss over everything else that points to her being more than just Life, her creating the Prime Naaru is next to impossible to reconcile with it. That's not just working with another power, that's her outright creating the primary agents of "another" force.

[Joshuaj]

God this would have been a perfect way to fix SL.

Make all of it fake and sylvanas wanted to get rid of the Titan prison of a false after life and the jailer won her over with proof that it was all a scam. We stop the jailer but also just flat out destroy the shadowlands freeing all the souls to go to a true unknown afterlife.

It would have fixed all the problems of undermining all the various cultures afterlife’s by leaving them up in the air after the fake ones were destroyed and would have been great build up to the titans being bad and not the non sense anti vaxx dragons.

The Jailer never mentions the Titans to Sylvanas tho...

- - - Updated - - -

Don't forget that the Emerald Dream was all but confirmed to be an unnatural alteration to the Realm of Life back in Dragonflight, too. The Titans seemingly carved a part out of another force's home to make it.

And given that it is the part of the Realm of Life that Ardenweald is linked to, and therefore the part that Elune should be overseeing, it already restored Elune's mysterious nature. Why would a normal member of the Pantheon of Life be ruling over an unnatural incursion into their domain? Just one thing that doesn't fit with the "explanation" we got back in Shadowlands.

Also, even if you gloss over everything else that points to her being more than just Life, her creating the Prime Naaru is next to impossible to reconcile with it. That's not just working with another power, that's her outright creating the primary agents of "another" force.

The Emerald Dream we know on Azeroth is not the same as the Shadowlands we went to. The Shadowlands and the Plane of Life itself are much better comparisons.

[Cheezits]

The Jailer never mentions the Titans to Sylvanas tho...

Because Blizzard for whatever reason does not want to reveal the twist for years and years. They could've absolutely talked about it offscreen too.

"Lol the first ones are fake it's all a scam please tell the heroes of Azeroth this so they help me, the Titans are actually super crazy evil" would've been a logical thing for Zovaal and Sylvanas to talk about. But it would've spoiled the TWEEST so it didn't happen. However, that conversation explains EVERYTHING Zovaal and Sylvanas did. And Denathrius, to an extent.

Maybe they just didn't want the players to feel like chumps and that they were doing something horrible/being the bad guys.

[Joshuaj]

I think it's a plotpoint that the Titans are not known in the Shadowlands (AFAIK) but the First Ones are. They are just the same thing, and the lie is to keep the Shadowlands denizens from going apeshit and discovering that they are all slaves to a big perpetual battery.

Zovaal realized this and went crazy- and GUESS who was #1 on burying him in superhell? Primus.

The Primus literally has memories of the Titans and had an ally who showed him the infinite timeways (that ally was most likely Aman'Thul).

Don't you dare tell me they didn't know of the Titans.

- - - Updated - - -

Because Blizzard for whatever reason does not want to reveal the twist for years and years. They could've absolutely talked about it offscreen too.

"Lol the first ones are fake it's all a scam please tell the heroes of Azeroth this so they help me, the Titans are actually super crazy evil" would've been a logical thing for Zovaal and Sylvanas to talk about. But it would've spoiled the TWEEST so it didn't happen.

Probably because the twist doesn't exist?