The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Dvalin]

People already have complained about the Titans being "villain batted" in DF. What you said is true but how the average player handles it is another story.

I still think in the end, only a handful of them (watchers/Titans) will be actually cruel. Odyn for sure. Even if Amanthul is the final boss I don't expect him to be an outright villain.

I think the plot of TWW does their other side more justice than that one bit of lore back in DF. The execution is much better now.

But, yeah, literacy is bad sometimes.

[Joshuaj]

Establishing the first ones = titans isn't a retcon, it's never been said they were different things and the elaboration on shadowlands lore in DF builds a stronger case for the titans having appropriated parts of the realm of death as they did with the realm of life

And the TWW titan lore is about the titans lying to and manipulating the titan forged

What do you mean it's not been established that they were different? What? Does someone legit need to spell it out for you or summ???

From the differences in their relics, to the differences in their magics, to the differences in their architecture, to the differences of their workshops and naming conventions, etc. They are very much different, unless I am to believe the Titans are THAT good at lying about a point they themselves are trying to hide from mortals for some reason...

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People already have complained about the Titans being "villain batted" in DF. What you said is true but how the average player handles it is another story.

I still think in the end, only a handful of them (watchers/Titans) will be actually cruel. Odyn for sure. Even if Amanthul is the final boss I don't expect him to be an outright villain.

Not to be that guy, but the fans think a lot of things...

The fans are also wrong a lot.

[milkmustache]

What do you mean it's not been established that they were different? What? Does someone legit need to spell it out for you or summ???

From the differences in their relics, to the differences in their magics, to the differences in their architecture, to the differences of their workshops and naming conventions, etc. They are very much different, unless I am to believe the Titans are THAT good at lying about a point they themselves are trying to hide from mortals for some reason...

I think you're misunderstanding. Their point isn't that the First Ones are presented differently than the Titans, but that our indrect knowledge of the First Ones would allow for a reveal that they are the Titans without it being a retcon.

[Worldshaper]

As I’ve said before, I think it’s fair to say that Elune is a goddess of Life—one of the Pantheon of Life. The reason she’s involved with other cosmic forces isn’t because she was born from them or bound to them, but simply because she actively reached out to them. She approached the Winter Queen as a sister, Eonar as a close friend, and it's only reasonable to believe that she tried to build similar relationships with both the Light and the Void as well.

Only problem is, her own powers always seem Light/Shadow/Arcane-based. Not Life.

If she were a Goddess of Life, of the Pantheon of Life, from the Realm of Life Zereth Vitae, you would expect her to throw out mostly Rejuvenations and Lifeblooms, not cosmic beams of arcane energy.

I get what you're saying though. And I find it interesting that her main collaborators from the different forces always seem to represent Life (Eonar, WQ, Malorne, etc.).

But her own properties always seem to paint her as somebody more affiliated with Light and Shadow.

The Moon.
The Stars.
Eclipses.
Balance between Night and Day.
The Night Warrior.
The White Lady.
Moonwells.

Here's an alternate hypothesis on her collaborations.

She is of the Light and Shadow. Like a Naaru, she is of the Light but the Shadow is also intrinsic to her very being.
She wants to spread, foster, and protect Life around the cosmos. Just like all higher beings of the Light wish to do.

So she...

1. Arrived on Azeroth seeking to protect and nurture its worldsoul, and all life dwelling on it.

2. First, she befriended the elementals (particularly the elements of water and air seemed to favour her).

3. Then, she perhaps even sought to work with one of the Old Gods? The 5th one is depicted with vines and skulls in Chronicles, so there might be a connection there.

4. Other primitive life forms may have sprung from these early efforts, such as the ancestors of the Tauren and Trolls. Legends about the Earth Mother started to appear.

5. Titans arrive and she forms some kind of bond with both Eonar and the Wild God Malorne. Dragons and various powerful beings like Dryads appear on Azeroth, all seeking to protect it. The Emerald Dream is ordered in a way that benefits her efforts on Azeroth, with powerful world trees having their Life magic seep through into the physical realm.

6. Elune forms some kind of sisterhood with the Winter Queen, or perhaps even installs the soul of a fellow Light-affiliated being into the "robot" we've met. They made arrangements so that the forms of life Elune needs in her efforts on Azeroth can be sent back again (Wild Gods), while later still some could even be kept on Azeroth indefinitely (Wisps).

7. The World Tree project begins in the physical realm in an attempt to spread Life more efficiently. It faces opposition and setbacks over and over again. But aided by the life-giving energies of the worldsoul, more advanced races begin to appear under the light of the moon. Haranir, Kaldorei, and others.

8. Enter the modern era, with all the history that we know of.

[Limayria]

What do you mean it's not been established that they were different? What? Does someone legit need to spell it out for you or summ???

From the differences in their relics, to the differences in their magics, to the differences in their architecture, to the differences of their workshops and naming conventions, etc. They are very much different, unless I am to believe the Titans are THAT good at lying about a point they themselves are trying to hide from mortals for some reason...

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Not to be that guy, but the fans think a lot of things...

The fans are also wrong a lot.

I mean you seem to be incapable of understanding that characters can be wrong in a story

And we haven't seen titan stuff yet, we've seen titan forged stuff on Azeroth made and maintained by keepers, which could also be built a certain way to influence the way the titan forged view and interact with the world much like places like oribos in shadowlands or bastion

And titan tech shows up as the end goal of zovals plan, using the manifold to try and reset creation or whatever

Zereth mortis and it's aesthetic and magics could easily be connected to actual order stuff in the realm of order as it was meant as a space nothing else in the shadowlands would see so they wouldn't need to be hiding it


And most importantly from a meta narrative PoV the first ones are the titans from classic wow the titans were shown as distant, dispassionate creator gods who we only knew through relics they left behind in their work shops and legends of their acts, they fulfill the exact same role in the narrative even if not in the universe, it's not even like an interesting case of "it's like poetry it rhymes" it's literally just copy pasting an old thing with out an actual understanding of what made it compelling, like how Elune provided a contrast to the titan mythos we were exposed to and the other myriad creation stories in the setting

Only problem is, her own powers always seem Light/Shadow/Arcane-based. Not Life.

If she were a Goddess of Life, of the Pantheon of Life, from the Realm of Life Zereth Vitae, you would expect her to throw out mostly Rejuvenations and Lifeblooms, not cosmic beams of arcane energy.

I get what you're saying though. And I find it interesting that her main collaborators from the different forces always seem to represent Life (Eonar, WQ, Malorne, etc.).

But her own properties always seem to paint her as somebody more affiliated with Light and Shadow.

The Moon.
The Stars.
Eclipses.
Balance between Night and Day.
The Night Warrior.
The White Lady.
Moonwells.

Here's an alternate hypothesis on her collaborations.

She is of the Light and Shadow. Like a Naaru, she is of the Light but the Shadow is also intrinsic to her very being.
She wants to spread, foster, and protect Life around the cosmos. Just like all higher beings of the Light wish to do.

So she...

1. Arrived on Azeroth seeking to protect and nurture its worldsoul, and all life dwelling on it.

2. First, she befriended the elementals (particularly the elements of water and air seemed to favour her).

3. Then, she perhaps even sought to work with one of the Old Gods? The 5th one is depicted with vines and skulls in Chronicles, so there might be a connection there.

4. Other primitive life forms may have sprung from these early efforts, such as the ancestors of the Tauren and Trolls. Legends about the Earth Mother started to appear.

5. Titans arrive and she forms some kind of bond with both Eonar and the Wild God Malorne. Dragons and various powerful beings like Dryads appear on Azeroth, all seeking to protect it. The Emerald Dream is ordered in a way that benefits her efforts on Azeroth, with powerful world trees having their Life magic seep through into the physical realm.

6. Elune forms some kind of sisterhood with the Winter Queen, or perhaps even installs the soul of a fellow Light-affiliated being into the "robot" we've met. They made arrangements so that the forms of life Elune needs in her efforts on Azeroth can be sent back again (Wild Gods), while later still some could even be kept on Azeroth indefinitely (Wisps).

7. The World Tree project begins in the physical realm in an attempt to spread Life more efficiently. It faces opposition and setbacks over and over again. But aided by the life-giving energies of the worldsoul, more advanced races begin to appear under the light of the moon. Haranir, Kaldorei, and others.

8. Enter the modern era, with all the history that we know of.

I think there's gonna be something between Elune and the curse of flesh and void and life all coming together in TLT to lead us towards some future post saga content in whatever shape that takes

[Nightshade711]

To be fair with the whole Titans/Shadowlands debate.
The Shadowlands are very ordered.

Even if the Titans themselves didn’t MAKE the Shadowlands it could make sense for them to have ordered it.

[Eldryth]

The Emerald Dream we know on Azeroth is not the same as the Shadowlands we went to. The Shadowlands and the Plane of Life itself are much better comparisons.

Of course the Emerald Dream isn't the same as the whole Shadowlands, that's why I didn't make anything like that comparison.


It is, explicitly, Ardenweald's counterpart in the Realm of Life, which makes a lot of the answers we got involving it in Shadowlands very suspect. Why would a supposedly natural part of the Shadowlands be intrinsically paired with an artificial construct within the Realm of Life? Why would a Life goddess be ruling over a foreign incursion into Life?

I hadn't really bought into the idea of the Titans being behind shaping the Shadowlands, but it'd actually be the simplest answer to this. Why would Ardenweald be paired with a Titan-distorted version of Life? Because it, too, was created or altered by the Titans. And Elune could have gotten there because of her link with Eonar.

[Cheezits]

To be fair with the whole Titans/Shadowlands debate.
The Shadowlands are very ordered.

Even if the Titans themselves didn’t MAKE the Shadowlands it could make sense for them to have ordered it.

Yeah, Marsaminus confirms that there was Shadowlands before the Pantheon. Winter Queen just popped up one day.

Just like how they made the Dream, the Titans probably wrangled an emptier, less sentient Shadowlands into the energy generator it is now.

[Xilurm]

Arthas doesn't deserve redemption. He literally cut out his own heart to kill his human compassion.

He deserves redemption from Shadowlands. The legacy he left as an iconic character was completely shat on in SL.

[Zardas]

Establishing the first ones = titans isn't a retcon, it's never been said they were different things and the elaboration on shadowlands lore in DF builds a stronger case for the titans having appropriated parts of the realm of death as they did with the realm of life

Wasn't it stated that the First Ones created the various pantheon, including the one of Order ?

[Joshuaj]

I think you're misunderstanding. Their point isn't that the First Ones are presented differently than the Titans, but that our indrect knowledge of the First Ones would allow for a reveal that they are the Titans without it being a retcon.

That...still doesn't make sense, as what we know about the First Ones makes it very hard for Blizzard to reveal they're the Titans. They'd have to do some MAJOR retconning otherwise.

[Hitei]

I think you're misunderstanding. Their point isn't that the First Ones are presented differently than the Titans, but that our indrect knowledge of the First Ones would allow for a reveal that they are the Titans without it being a retcon.

The technology level alone makes this entire idea nonsense. The First Ones have machines that can infinitely fabricate new realities at will and were able to build a system that could pull souls from across all of existence (and multiple timelines, but we don't talk about that) to a single point. The Titans were kept busy just handling demonic hordes, have to stuff all sorts of machines into planets to take control of worldsouls, were largely unaware of the Void's deal, needed to employ another group to keep an eye on planets because they are so non-omniscient. Sargeras' dumbass couldn't even figure out how to get to Azeroth efficiently without someone on the planet opening the way.

Aman'thul, the leader of the Titans, lost his shit over a primordial World Tree being planted because it represented a threatening display of another domain's influence on a planet, and the Pantheon's containment system and plan for the Old Gods failed not once, but for all four of their shoddily made prisons. The First Ones built a machine that can rewrite all of existence and started an elaborate, universe-spanning Rube Goldberg machine to make the worldsoul all the Titans absolutely obsess over controlling.

[Joshuaj]

Wasn't it stated that the First Ones created the various pantheon, including the one of Order ?

Yes. There are also multiple interviews talking about the First Ones and how they're above the forces we know, like the Titans and the Void Lords, etc.

[Zardas]

And we haven't seen titan stuff yet, we've seen titan forged stuff on Azeroth made and maintained by keepers

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Whispe...ightened_World

Magni Bronzebeard says: The titans built these halls ta watch over the soul o' the world.

[Joshuaj]

He deserves redemption from Shadowlands. The legacy he left as an iconic character was completely shat on in SL.

How was it shat on? He only appeared once and wasn't even a soul...

Unless you think Arthas deserved some cool moment in the Afterlife, which I think is silly considering he was one of the most evil mfs ever.

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I mean you seem to be incapable of understanding that characters can be wrong in a story

And we haven't seen titan stuff yet, we've seen titan forged stuff on Azeroth made and maintained by keepers, which could also be built a certain way to influence the way the titan forged view and interact with the world much like places like oribos in shadowlands or bastion

And titan tech shows up as the end goal of zovals plan, using the manifold to try and reset creation or whatever

Zereth mortis and it's aesthetic and magics could easily be connected to actual order stuff in the realm of order as it was meant as a space nothing else in the shadowlands would see so they wouldn't need to be hiding it


And most importantly from a meta narrative PoV the first ones are the titans from classic wow the titans were shown as distant, dispassionate creator gods who we only knew through relics they left behind in their work shops and legends of their acts, they fulfill the exact same role in the narrative even if not in the universe, it's not even like an interesting case of "it's like poetry it rhymes" it's literally just copy pasting an old thing with out an actual understanding of what made it compelling, like how Elune provided a contrast to the titan mythos we were exposed to and the other myriad creation stories in the setting




I think there's gonna be something between Elune and the curse of flesh and void and life all coming together in TLT to lead us towards some future post saga content in whatever shape that takes

Lmao I guess the Seat of the Pantheon is Titanforged then? Or the halls at the depths of Antorus?

Oh wait...

Don't call incapable of something when you don't seem to understand the lore yourself.

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To be fair with the whole Titans/Shadowlands debate.
The Shadowlands are very ordered.

Even if the Titans themselves didn’t MAKE the Shadowlands it could make sense for them to have ordered it.

The forces of Light, Death, and Order were made with structure in mind. Even then, every force works with one another, so Order having some type of influence in the realm of Death makes sense. And considering the Primus has memories of the Titans and whatnot, the Titans doing stuff in the Shadowlands is acceptable.

I don't think they should make it to where the First Ones are them, however.

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Yeah, Marsaminus confirms that there was Shadowlands before the Pantheon. Winter Queen just popped up one day.

Just like how they made the Dream, the Titans probably wrangled an emptier, less sentient Shadowlands into the energy generator it is now.

That just means the First Ones made the realms before placing the pantheon members there.

[milkmustache]

How was it shat on? He only appeared once and wasn't even a soul...

Unless you think Arthas deserved some cool moment in the Afterlife, which I think is silly considering he was one of the most evil mfs ever.

Evil character does not mean they're undeserving of cool moments. At all.

Regardless, Arthas was reduced to an afterlife fart. He was a puppet for angry death realm Ru Paul, but wasn't at the same time? Zovaal even being in the picture completely ruins all of the story that Arthas had, it takes away character motivations, arcs and outcomes from having any sort of meaning because it's all reduced to "but actually, this guy did it."

[Joshuaj]

"Zereth mortis and it's aesthetic and magics could easily be connected to actual order stuff in the realm of order as it was meant as a space nothing else in the shadowlands would see so they wouldn't need to be hiding it"

This is debunked by the fact that a lot of the magics in Zereth Mortis are also very chaotic looking, and span an infinite number of directions, which goes against the Titans more streamlined magics.

[Nightshade711]

Yeah, Marsaminus confirms that there was Shadowlands before the Pantheon. Winter Queen just popped up one day.

Just like how they made the Dream, the Titans probably wrangled an emptier, less sentient Shadowlands into the energy generator it is now.

Thanks, I coulda sworn I had seen that somewhere but couldn’t find it.

The titans (seemingly) aren’t created robots like the Eternal Ones. They’re just world souls that matured - from what we’ve heard & seen with Argus.

It would be cool if it were the case that the First Ones aren’t actually real & the “first ones” stuff we’ve seen was just the titans. The magic we’ve seen in ZM looks awfully like pure order magic.

[Cheezits]

Denathrius told Zovaal to do all the Lich King stuff telling him it would help him, but it actually meant for some other purpose.

KJ was in on it somehow.

That would solve some issues, especially as it was already looking like the Nathrezim "caused" him to go crazy before SL. However, the KJ thing is tricky and he really may have just gotten punked.

[Joshuaj]

Evil character does not mean they're undeserving of cool moments. At all.

Regardless, Arthas was reduced to an afterlife fart. He was a puppet for angry death realm Ru Paul, but wasn't at the same time? Zovaal even being in the picture completely ruins all of the story that Arthas had, it takes away character motivations, arcs and outcomes from having any sort of meaning because it's all reduced to "but actually, this guy did it."

He was an evil guy who tried to become the king of it all, only to die and end up as a memory to be forgotten, fizzled out at the very origin of the Afterlife itself.

Guess you can say he met his maker *sips tea*

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Denathrius told Zovaal to do all the Lich King stuff telling him it would help him, but it actually meant for some other purpose.

KJ was in on it somehow.

That would solve some issues, especially as it was already looking like the Nathrezim "caused" him to go crazy. However, the KJ thing is tricky and he really may have just gotten punked.

Lmao yeah no, I don't think Denathrius was using Zovaal for anything. Considering how he acted towards Renathal and whatnot, he was 100% glazing the guy