The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Ersula]

Was it stated the Automa didn't know about the Maw? Also, sure, the Maw wasn't made with the Progenitor's design in mind, but a couple things:

1. The Progenitor's still set up waystones in the Maw, implying they knew what was up regardless.

And 2. The Jailer's maw powers are still within the Cosmos itself. The supposed 7th power is outside the design entire.

The first thing you do in Zereth Mortis is warn them about the Jailer & the Maw...they have no idea what you're talking about.

So I say again, wanting to destroy the design makes you outside the grand design. The Automata know about everything, except the Mawsworn. Stating the First Ones "put the waystone there" being proof that everything that happened in shadowlands was intended by the First ones is just....dumb. We have no reason to think they put a waystone there. Rather, the more likely explanation is that the location the Eternal Ones turned into the Maw was part of that Forbidden Area (Korthia) no one was ever supposed to go, including the Eternal ones, and predates the Cosmic design entirely.

If the First Ones predicted the events of Shadowlands they simply could have told The Primus not to make Frostmorne. Or stopped Denathrius from making the Dreadlords. Or fixed Zovaal's brain. Or given the Arbiter higher bandwidth. Or Aborted Sargeras. Or countless other things. All would have ruined the Jailer's scheme. This idea that it was supposed to happen isn't established anywhere in the story & somehow makes the storyline even dumber than it already is.

[Joshuaj]

The first thing you do in Zereth Mortis is warn them about the Jailer & the Maw...they have no idea what you're talking about.

So I say again, wanting to destroy the design makes you outside the grand design. The Automata know about everything, except the Mawsworn. Stating the First Ones "put the waystone there" being proof that everything that happened in shadowlands was intended by the First ones is just....dumb. We have no reason to think they put a waystone there. Rather, the more likely explanation is that the location the Eternal Ones turned into the Maw was part of that Forbidden Area (Korthia) no one was ever supposed to go, including the Eternal ones, and predates the Cosmic design entirely.

If the First Ones predicted the events of Shadowlands they simply could have told The Primus not to make Frostmorne. Or stopped Denathrius from making the Dreadlords. Or fixed Zovaal's brain. Or given the Arbiter higher bandwidth. Or Aborted Sargeras. Or countless other things. All would have ruined the Jailer's scheme. This idea that it was supposed to happen isn't established anywhere in the story & somehow makes the storyline even dumber than it already is.

The First Ones put 2 Waystones at specific locations (Ignoring the one in Zereth Mortis ofc): 1 in the Maw, and 1 at Korthia. Both were used by a Maw Walker and both waystones were activated in specific occasions. To say the First Ones didn't prepare for this eventuality is silly imo.

Also, I'm looking at the questline again, nothing implies they didn't know about the Mawsworn. Sure, they still did their own thing, but Firim states that so long as the Automa aren't interrupted or anything, they basically ignore stuff.

[milkmustache]

Idk, maybe don't say silly shit like "The First Ones should be retconned into being the Titans" then?

Ik you didn't say it, but others did.

Silly to one is an obvious fix to Blizzard's worst mistake to... most of the forum.

[Joshuaj]

Silly to one is an obvious fix to Blizzard's worst mistake to... most of the forum.

A fix that makes literally no sense? lol

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Also, I don't consider most of the forum to know what they're talking about regarding the First Ones.

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"If the First Ones predicted the events of Shadowlands they simply could have told The Primus not to make Frostmorne. Or stopped Denathrius from making the Dreadlords. Or fixed Zovaal's brain. Or given the Arbiter higher bandwidth. Or Aborted Sargeras. Or countless other things. All would have ruined the Jailer's scheme. This idea that it was supposed to happen isn't established anywhere in the story & somehow makes the storyline even dumber than it already is."

Kinda goes against the implication that they don't directly intervene with their creation, They influence it VIA the cosmic forces within the design (As the cosmic influences are literally portions of the First Ones themselves), but that's about it. Funny enough, the First Ones not directly intervening with their design takes inspiration from a real life belief.

[Ersula]

The First Ones put 2 Waystones at specific locations (Ignoring the one in Zereth Mortis ofc): 1 in the Maw, and 1 at Korthia. Both were used by a Maw Walker and both waystones were activated in specific occasions. To say the First Ones didn't prepare for this eventuality is silly imo.

Also, I'm looking at the questline again, nothing implies they didn't know about the Mawsworn. Sure, they still did their own thing, but Firim states that so long as the Automa aren't interrupted or anything, they basically ignore stuff.

You seem to just misunderstand the situation.

Did they put them there? Yes.
Was it the maw when they put them there? No.
Was it the ruins of some sort of pre-cosmology First One society that was left derelict by the time they created the Shadowlands & the rest of the cosmology? Yes.
Is this how those ruins are portrayed in Korthia? Yes.
Did they use these waystones to travel? Yes.
Were they part of a plan to stop the destruction of the cosmology in spite of there being many other ways to stop it that didn't involve multiple genocides? No.

Its a coincidence, not predestination.

Kinda goes against the implication that they don't directly intervene with their creation, They influence it VIA the cosmic forces within the design, but that's about it. Funny enough, the First Ones not directly intervening with their design takes inspiration from a real life belief.

Either way they're intervening with their creation. Why is them making a flawed creation on purpose make more sense to you than making a flawed creation by mistake? The Automata believe the First Ones were infallible but that doesn't mean they're correct.

[Joshuaj]

You seem to just misunderstand the situation.

Did they put them there? Yes.
Was it the maw when they put them there? No.
Was it the ruins of some sort of pre-cosmology First One society that was left derelict by the time they created the Shadowlands & the rest of the cosmology? Yes.
Is this how those ruins are portrayed in Korthia? Yes.
Did they use these waystones to travel? Yes.
Were they part of a plan to stop the destruction of the cosmology in spite of there being many other ways to stop it that didn't involve multiple genocides? No.

Its a coincidence, not predestination.
Either way they're intervening with their creation. Why is them making a flawed creation on purpose make more sense to you than making a flawed creation by mistake? The Automata believe the First Ones were infallible but that doesn't mean they're correct.

Regarding what Danuser said, the First Ones prepared things for eventualities within the Cosmos. Like how the Void Lords can see infinite possibilities and see them as true, the First Ones can also see the infinite possibilities within the Universe, although they probably don't see all of them as true given their nature. Regardless, the weaves of the Universe can go any type of path. And if the First Ones can foresee said path, then they can prepare for it. Yes, they might've set up the waystones pre-Maw, but they still foresaw a potential inevitability where they could be needed, which implies they probably knew about the possibility of the Maw, etc.

However, none of this was set in stone, so it's entirely possible the waystones could never be used or anything like that. However, the Progenitors wouldn't take that risk. Anything to keep the design going, ya know?

So yes, it wasn't pre-destined. However, that doesn't mean it wasn't foreseen. The Universe is of the Progenitor's creation. Whatever path it weaves, they can foresee.

"Either way they're intervening with their creation. Why is them making a flawed creation on purpose make more sense to you than making a flawed creation by mistake? The Automata believe the First Ones were infallible but that doesn't mean they're correct."

The creation of the Design seems to have been made with the intention of growth and evolution. The First Ones themselves started out in conflict with one-another, and they eventually got together and made the design. So, as a result, this design will also house conflict, and potentially resolve in peace. However, that's not the only answer...

The entire design kinda tipped over once Zovaal started his conspiracy, and note that his conspiracy started when he felt an "outside force". It's entirely possible the 7th indirectly fucked with the design of the 6 in hopes of making it break from within. The First Ones foresaw this eventuality, and put in counter-measures in-case (Whether they proved true or not was irrelevant to them), but the 7th still managed to cause some major chaos to the design, even if it's influence wasn't directly known.

Funny enough, the 7th's existence is probably why the 6 got together in the first place, as everything talks about 6 forces pointing towards a 7th yet denying it, as well as speculation regarding each force, and how it's entirely possible the influences conflict within the pattern was driven by the unconscious knowledge of an outside force outside our understanding.

Funny enough, all of this brings me back to what Firim said in his speculation: "And if the six (or seven, or... excuse my imprecision) each vie with one another to claim it, could they be driven by the unconscious knowledge that there exists some other force outside our understanding that seeks it as well?"

Firim talks about the potential of 7 forces within the design (But seemingly generalizes with 6), yet he theorized the possibility of there being an outside force as well.

And in 9.2, the hints as there being 7 forces (With the 7th being an outside force altogether) are more and more known. Heck, it's basically confirmed. Howver, there are also a lot of potential Azeroth hints within Zereth Mortis as well, which makes me wonder...

What if Firim wasn't wrong in theorizing there might be 7 powers within the design? Like maybe there are 7 First Ones, or there are 6 First Ones and 1 other power? This 7th would be Azeroth in this case.

And the force outside the pattern? Well that would then be the generalized "7th force", with its own design, it's own song, and its need to claim what the First Ones hold fast.

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Based off the Zereth Mortis Firim notes as well, I do have to wonder what Azeroth truly is, especially with the insane potential of the Worldsouls. This has led me to two possible theories:

1. Azeroth is the last remnant of an original creator power (this creator power made the First Ones, the 7th wanted it, the 6 went against that and used their power + Azeroth's to make the Universe, they split Azeroth into multiple entities known as the Worldsouls, and they forged a design to keep Azeroth safe from the 7th til their design can grow strong enough to defy it)

Or 2. Azeroth is the first child of the Progenitors or is their golden child (Basically, the First Ones do their thing, the 7th tries to consume the rest of them, the 6 unite and create a design, the First Ones make Azeroth which is their ultimate weapon, the First Ones make other worldsouls with immense potential in-case, the First Ones make the pantheons and everything to keep the design going and to ensure the worldsouls are safeguarded, etc).

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That, or Azeroth is the 7th or isn't related to the Progenitors at all, and my theories are proven useless...

[FossilFree]

That, or Azeroth is the 7th or isn't related to the Progenitors at all, and my theories are proven useless...

I'll bet on Azeroth being the 7th force. This is why all the other forces want to kill or imprison her. The Legion, the Jailer, the Titans, etc. She is probably more powerful than the First Ones, but her power hasn't been fully realized yet.

Since they have been tying the Radiant Song to Azeroth, maybe sonic is the 7th force, with Murmur being an early herald of said force. A bard class could then theoretically harness the 7th force as their thematic basis.

[Worldshaper]

Retconning the First Ones and the Zereths out would do wonders for the lore.

I don't know the scope of the damage, for example how many books and quests they're mentioned in.

But I'm sure you could explain it using Aman'Thul and timelines, somehow. Perhaps the Titans grew so powerful in one timeline, they "ascended," or at least portrayed themselves as having done so.

But then it's explained this was all nonsense and the true origins of the cosmos remains a mystery.

All it takes to get the ball rolling is a quest chain like the Archaedas one in TWW, or a book like Neltharion's "annotated" one.

[Holdodlig]

Retconning the First Ones and the Zereths out would do wonders for the lore.

I don't know the scope of the damage, for example how many books and quests they're mentioned in.

But I'm sure you could explain it using Aman'Thul and timelines, somehow. Perhaps the Titans grew so powerful in one timeline, they "ascended," or at least portrayed themselves as having done so.

But then it's explained this was all nonsense and the true origins of the cosmos remains a mystery.

All it takes to get the ball rolling is a quest chain like the Archaedas one in TWW, or a book like Neltharion's "annotated" one.

Would just be great if most of the Shadowlands we saw was just a big titan scheme in order to displace a lot of souls out of the real Shadowlands so they could produce more Titanforged creatures and "bring order" to more worlds. And having all the Zereth be titan structures where they set up these conspiracies would be a good thing then, having the Titans acting as if there was a superior being even on top of them when they've actually been the biggest conspirators.

[Worldshaper]

Would just be great if most of the Shadowlands we saw was just a big titan scheme in order to displace a lot of souls out of the real Shadowlands so they could produce more Titanforged creatures and "bring order" to more worlds. And having all the Zereth be titan structures where they set up these conspiracies would be a good thing then, having the Titans acting as if there was a superior being even on top of them when they've actually been the biggest conspirators.

Would be crazy if this was the conspiracy in TLT.
Since way back, the cycle of life and death itself was "ordered" to benefit the Titans' mission.

[Timester]

The "First Ones" debate must be one of the most boring in all MMO. We get a new patch full of lore, nothing related to First Ones. Yet, what the thing is talked about? First Ones...


I just hope they retcon them once and for all so we can talk about the lore that is being presented to us.

[Dvalin]

Retconning the First Ones and the Zereths out would do wonders for the lore.

I don't know the scope of the damage, for example how many books and quests they're mentioned in.

But I'm sure you could explain it using Aman'Thul and timelines, somehow. Perhaps the Titans grew so powerful in one timeline, they "ascended," or at least portrayed themselves as having done so.

But then it's explained this was all nonsense and the true origins of the cosmos remains a mystery.

All it takes to get the ball rolling is a quest chain like the Archaedas one in TWW, or a book like Neltharion's "annotated" one.

We've already been over this a few days ago when we were talking about Elune and Aman'thul. No. It's not that easy anymore to retcon this, and no, it doesn't make sense. The cosmological chart was rewritten/finetuned around Shadowlands, we're dealing with that reality now. Whether you like the First Ones or not. The conspiracy probably has everything to do with the Manifold and our Worldsoul, and how the Titans wand to 'indoctrinate' her to become one of their own. Just like every cosmological force wants to.

[Reive]

the new arathi questline was pretty dog. they really can't write conflict on a level that goes beyond the surface.

[Timester]

the new arathi questline was pretty dog. they really can't write conflict on a level that goes beyond the surface.

The conflict was already written on the short story, this was just the epilogue.

[Khaza-R]

the new arathi questline was pretty dog. they really can't write conflict on a level that goes beyond the surface.

To be fair, WarCraft has been all about that scapegoating trope since WC3.

Evil genocidal orcs, no, no we aren't those guys...

Racist, intolerant humans, no, no we aren't those bad guys either...

They've acutally never been able to write a grey story. Vanilla if anything was a bit of fluke. For the most part they are incapiable of making enemy who isn't just absurdly evil for the sake of it. Their garbage tier writing is inescapable it seems.

[Reive]

To be fair, WarCraft has been all about that scapegoating trope since WC3.

Evil genocidal orcs, no, no we aren't those guys...

Racist, intolerant humans, no, no we aren't those bad guys either...

They've acutally never been able to write a grey story. Vanilla if anything was a bit of fluke. For the most part they are incapiable of making enemy who isn't just absurdly evil for the sake of it. Their garbage tier writing is inescapable it seems.

yea but now it has gotten even worse. they keep adding team rocket tier villains to make the horde and the alliance avoid clashing with each other because they're scared to upset people. the result is sappy, nonsensical and boring writing. they should stick with the avengers tier narrative until they get better writers

[KayserB]

Idk, maybe don't say silly shit like "The First Ones should be retconned into being the Titans" then?

Ik you didn't say it, but others did.

He's right. Shadowlands mess should/must be retconned. Fuck the first ones, they should be replaced by the Titans. Period.

[Reive]

the writing keeps being the weakest part of retail wow. they can write emotional and funny stories pretty well but when things get more serious and more depth is required everything falls apart

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He's right. Shadowlands mess should/must be retconned. Fuck the first ones, they should be replaced by the Titans. Period.

they can't retcon it. not anymore. also, the first ones are the least offensive thing about shadowlands' lore

[Nightshade711]

Would be crazy if this was the conspiracy in TLT.
Since way back, the cycle of life and death itself was "ordered" to benefit the Titans' mission.

Could make sense.

After all why are the Eternal Ones robots who return to their base robotic forms on death like this:


But the titans don’t when they die, as seen with Argus.

The Titans already meddled in other realms pre-SL lore too, AND there was a Shadowlands that existed before the structure/Eternal Ones.

[KainneAbsolute]

For me Shadowlands arent the original domain of death. Remember when Primus had a Titan design? Well, i think the current shadowlands was ordered and the maw is the ruins of a failed previous version of afterlife.