The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[FossilFree]

Oh, absolutely. The Old Gods were changed by Azeroth's free will. That's why Xal was sent to Azeroth to see the Black Empire, saw what the Old Gods were doing (off the plan) and managed to manipulate the weakest of them all, N'zoth.

Sounds like making the Old Gods secretly friendly, or some of them anyways. That could make sense, since Neltharion's notes on the Black Empire seemed to contradict the Titans' claims about the Old Gods. That they weren't so bad, and maybe even had some good things about them? If the Old Gods were actually working for Azeroth at this point, all of that would start to fit in place.

That could also give us the basis for a friendly void faction that has split off from the Void Lords, and maybe even teaches us how to harness their powers. Riftblade class anyone?

[Foolicious]

The Denathrius thing does make me wonder- if Remornia hadn't intervened, would he have just fallen down in his robot form? Or do we think he may have ditched the robot tether somehow?

ZM confirms a (powerful?) soul plus a robot makes an Eternal One. But maybe Denny ditched it so he can more flexibly travel?

And has anyone wondered if that's what is required for a Keeper as well? I wonder if Tyr's "soul" was in that scale. Or, are they just robots that obtained souls over time similar to Algari Earthen?

Quite possible that denathrius has found a way to leave the robot body behind. He had the dreadlords stationed all around the universe for millenia. Surely they could have found something that makes a soul more independend.
But it could also be that the robot part is more of a metaphorical part of the eternal ones. When they die they leave this body behind, but its not like they form their physical appearance around it and its still operating inside them like a skeleton.
Like a druid in bear form transforms into a nightelf when they die etc.
So because he didn't die we did not see his body.

The more unsatisfying answer is probably that zereth mortis wasn't fully done by the time castle nathria was done. Or they did not want to spoil the "robot reveal" in the first patch.

[milkmustache]

Sounds like making the Old Gods secretly friendly, or some of them anyways. That could make sense, since Neltharion's notes on the Black Empire seemed to contradict the Titans' claims about the Old Gods. That they weren't so bad, and maybe even had some good things about them? If the Old Gods were actually working for Azeroth at this point, all of that would start to fit in place.

That could also give us the basis for a friendly void faction that has split off from the Void Lords, and maybe even teaches us how to harness their powers. Riftblade class anyone?

I wonder if less working for Azeroth and more finally working for themselves... which may or may not be good in certain perspectives, but it was from the free will gained by their proximity to Azeroth.

Re; Riftblades, I really, really want a Spellblade class of some sort, maybe giving them certain specs like Riftblade, Spellbreaker and another could be a good approach!

[Joshuaj]

Uh, they are from Ka'resh accordingly to the new patch, that's the point. Even Loremaster Cho says it:

The ethereals and the brokers both hail from K'aresh? It is possible they were once one people?..."

This after the questline where V'enari and Locus Walker pretty much said the same thing.


It's not about retcons, this is actually a fan theory for years. But it solidifies that whatever we know from Shadowlands is far from a certain, just like the lies of the Titans.

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It wasn't a retcon, we all know the books are written from perspectives. That's the point.

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Which is a BS due what the Arbiter is supposed to do, all races lose their identities in the Shadowlands.

Well, except the Brokers now.

The Arbiter judges souls. If a soul is akin to the Brokers, then it's possible the Arbiter sent them to a specific realm.

Also, only the covenants really went through that type of change (with the Kyrian stuff not being optional at the time), and we made it to where the Kyrian change with the memory wipe and whatnot was optional. So, not every Kyrian is a blue human (though they likely still possess Kyrian traits), and some Kyrians have their memories still.

[Ersula]

What? Using this logic, retcons don't even exist.

Not exactly. I would argue a character within a narrative lying or new information recontextualizing existing information are not retcons.

An omnicient narrator telling the audience the Eredar corrupted Sargeras, then later us finding out Sargeras corrupted the Eredar, is an example of a retcon.

Though yes, its going to be contested whether or not the first Chronicles is presented as a Titan's log or an omniscient narrator.

[Joshuaj]

Uh, didn't Lorewalking just unequivocally establish Brokers are K'aresh natives? As in, simply Ethereals who attuned to death magic so they can traverse the veil?At that point "native" would be meaningless. They wouldn't have died, since they didn't get assigned an afterlife. Tazavesh wasn't made by the First Ones. The Arbiters attendants said the Brokers just showed up one day & they didn't know how to react to that, so they didn't. So that goes to my theory that of all the types of magic they could have attuned to, death magic allowed them to traverse the veil, both ways, per V'anari simply showing up in the world of the living in Lorewalking like its nothing.

They would still be native, as they were affected by the magics of Death, meaning they are likely tethered to it and reborn there. It's no different to how most Kyrian are native to Bastion, despite most of them coming from the realm of the living.

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Not exactly. I would argue a character within a narrative lying or new information recontextualizing existing information are not retcons.

An omnicient narrator telling the audience the Eredar corrupted Sargeras, then later us finding out Sargeras corrupted the Eredar, is an example of a retcon.

Though yes, its going to be contested whether or not the first Chronicles is presented as a Titan's log or an omniscient narrator.

I think it's more-so taken from the PoV of someone who studied Titan archives, and based their opinion on that.

[Ersula]

They would still be native, as they were affected by the magics of Death, meaning they are likely tethered to it and reborn there. It's no different to how most Kyrian are native to Bastion, despite most of them coming from the realm of the living.

But we have no reason to think that. They never say Brokers who are killed in the shadowlands return to Tazavesh. Brokers never passed through the Arbiter. The Attendants tell us the Brokers just showed up one day & being utterly unprepared for them, treated them with hospitality. That tells me Brokers got there of their own volition.

[FossilFree]

I wonder if less working for Azeroth and more finally working for themselves... which may or may not be good in certain perspectives, but it was from the free will gained by their proximity to Azeroth.

Re; Riftblades, I really, really want a Spellblade class of some sort, maybe giving them certain specs like Riftblade, Spellbreaker and another could be a good approach!

Yea, maybe they weren't even conscious of Azeroth's influence as much as her influence gave them free will. But if she represents free will as a force, then they have basically been converted to being her champions even if they didn't realize it! I actually like that angle, it's different from the other forces where their henchmen generally make a choice to help that force directly and specifically.

And the Riftblade/Spellblade/Spellbreaker connection seems so obvious that it would almost be weird NOT to do it for Midnight. If Void Elves and Blood Elves are reunifying, then here you are representing both sides of their culture in one class.

[Super Dickmann]

They would still be native, as they were affected by the magics of Death, meaning they are likely tethered to it and reborn there. It's no different to how most Kyrian are native to Bastion, despite most of them coming from the realm of the living.

All Kyrian except the big lady that didn't get shivved enough by Anduin came from native souls, the whole plot hinges on this and their memories of being alive. The Brokers, being now confirmed as being from K'aresh also aren't spawned by the Shadowlands the way the OG Venthyr for example are. How Blizzard justify it past that point or if they do at all doesn't really matter, be it that they're the souls of whatever the ethereals were called who move on or if they used technology to transport themselves to the Shadowlands and live off of anima the way the ethereals have magical bodies.

It is a retcon, but a good one, in so far as it transports the one thing that got a mostly universally positive reception from Shadowlands. Denathrius is likely next up.

[Timester]

What? Using this logic, retcons don't even exist.

That cat went out of the window when Chronicles were considered by Danuser as "perspective".

[Worldshaper]

Not exactly. I would argue a character within a narrative lying or new information recontextualizing existing information are not retcons.

An omnicient narrator telling the audience the Eredar corrupted Sargeras, then later us finding out Sargeras corrupted the Eredar, is an example of a retcon.

Though yes, its going to be contested whether or not the first Chronicles is presented as a Titan's log or an omniscient narrator.

Nobody lied, though.

In 2016, Blizzard said Chronicles Vol. 1 was the definitive account of the world's creation. Because that's what they had decided. They needed one source that cleaned up their lore.

Then they changed their minds, presumably because Metzen left and lesser writers wanted to leave their own mark on the lore. So Chronicles Vol. 1 became the Titans' "perspective".

That's a retcon.

[Nightshade711]

Denathrius didn't become a robot when he died either btw. He did a very similar thing the Titans did when they died I.E become an essence and flee into a host.

Might I recommend replaying Shadowlands?

Might wanna take your own advice and replay Shadowlands.

He wasn’t killed. Remornia absorbed his essence to prevent his death. Then he was imprisoned by a Z’rali and later freed.

Plus we know Denathrius is a robot too.


That magic could easily be seen as Order magic.

[Timester]

The Arbiter judges souls. If a soul is akin to the Brokers, then it's possible the Arbiter sent them to a specific realm.

Also, only the covenants really went through that type of change (with the Kyrian stuff not being optional at the time), and we made it to where the Kyrian change with the memory wipe and whatnot was optional. So, not every Kyrian is a blue human (though they likely still possess Kyrian traits), and some Kyrians have their memories still.

Factually wrong, all souls are memory-wiped or forced to ignore them after they are transformed by the covenants.

Which is not the case of the Brokers here. They are the only that always looked to be outsiders of all Shadowlands system, called natives before, but not anymore. That's the point all along. That everything could be a ruse. After all, we are on a expansion learning the biggest ruse of them all, the Titans worldshaping.

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But we have no reason to think that. They never say Brokers who are killed in the shadowlands return to Tazavesh. Brokers never passed through the Arbiter. The Attendants tell us the Brokers just showed up one day & being utterly unprepared for them, treated them with hospitality. That tells me Brokers got there of their own volition.

Exactly this.

[milkmustache]

Yea, maybe they weren't even conscious of Azeroth's influence as much as her influence gave them free will. But if she represents free will as a force, then they have basically been converted to being her champions even if they didn't realize it! I actually like that angle, it's different from the other forces where their henchmen generally make a choice to help that force directly and specifically.

And the Riftblade/Spellblade/Spellbreaker connection seems so obvious that it would almost be weird NOT to do it for Midnight. If Void Elves and Blood Elves are reunifying, then here you are representing both sides of their culture in one class.

I also think there's an angle to play where her champions don't necessarily have to represent her interests (as would be the case with other forces). It's rather the fact that they can use their own free will outside the other 6 cosmic forces, regardless of where it lands on a moral compass or in the health of Azeroth as a planet, that makes them "champions" of her cause. She's been hidden by the Titans and sought by others because she represents a destruction to all of their power, a universe where its' inhabitants chart their own destinies, regardless of the powers that made them.

Re Riftblade again, I completely agree, although I saw someone suggest a few pages back that they could do a Ranger type of class that splits its specs between the 3 Windrunner sisters. Soooo Alleria Voidhunter, Vereesa traditional Ranger and Sylvanas Dark Ranger (although that is already a hero talent, it could be a testing ground for it). I think I'd prefer a Spellblade/Riftblade/Spellbreaker approach with maybe a ranged DPS spec personally!

That magic could easily be seen as Order magic.

It's funny because I seem to remember there being such a big fuss about Order magic being depicted in a very particular way in DF & TWW, a golden type of effect compared to Arcane's blue/purple. Who is to say this wasn't established even earlier in SL /shrug

[Joshuaj]

All Kyrian except the big lady that didn't get shivved enough by Anduin came from native souls, the whole plot hinges on this and their memories of being alive. The Brokers, being now confirmed as being from K'aresh also aren't spawned by the Shadowlands the way the OG Venthyr for example are. How Blizzard justify it past that point or if they do at all doesn't really matter, be it that they're the souls of whatever the ethereals were called who move on or if they used technology to transport themselves to the Shadowlands and live off of anima the way the ethereals have magical bodies.

It is a retcon, but a good one, in so far as it transports the one thing that got a mostly universally positive reception from Shadowlands. Denathrius is likely next up.

You literally see the process of people becoming Kyrian in the Shadowlands btw. Some are probably naturally created, but a lot of others aren't.

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Might wanna take your own advice and replay Shadowlands.

He wasn’t killed. Remornia absorbed his essence to prevent his death. Then he was imprisoned by a Z’rali and later freed.

Plus we know Denathrius is a robot too.


That magic could easily be seen as Order magic.

You could argue the magic shown could be "Light" magic as well, with the hyper-Light transports and whatnot, but they aren't. It's a higher form of magic altogether.

Also, that's just a prototype for Denathrius, it's unknown if they actually use the vessels for the creation process of the other Eternal Ones.

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But we have no reason to think that. They never say Brokers who are killed in the shadowlands return to Tazavesh. Brokers never passed through the Arbiter. The Attendants tell us the Brokers just showed up one day & being utterly unprepared for them, treated them with hospitality. That tells me Brokers got there of their own volition.

Was it ever stated the Brokers never passed through the Arbiter? Or?

Also, Tazavesh isn't the Broker's main realm.

[milkmustache]

You could argue the magic shown could be "Light" magic as well, with the hyper-Light transports and whatnot, but they aren't. It's a higher form of magic altogether.

Also, that's just a prototype for Denathrius, it's unknown if they actually use the vessels for the creation process of the other Eternal Ones.

We are literally shown that is the case with Zovaal. I understand theres an argument to be made that it could have been only Zovaal, but at some point we need to acknowledge when we are being shown things to explain other things.

[Timester]

Was it ever stated the Brokers never passed through the Arbiter? Or?

It was stated that they were natives of Shadowlands, as I posted the history link.

Now they aren't.

[Nightshade711]

Also, that's just a prototype for Denathrius, it's unknown if they actually use the vessels for the creation process of the other Eternal Ones.

The Jailer’s death proved that the others are robots I’d imagine.
Unless you’re gonna say that the Jailer (or someone else) stole the prototype Jailer and used him for the shenanigans & the real jailer is still out there.

[Timester]

We are literally shown that is the case with Zovaal. I understand theres an argument to be made that it could have been only Zovaal, but at some point we need to acknowledge when we are being shown things to explain other things.

More and more I believe someone was bullshitting all Shadowlands with bots and everyone fed it. Sounds just like Azeroth.

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The Jailer’s death proved that the others are robots I’d imagine.
Unless you’re gonna say that the Jailer (or someone else) stole the prototype Jailer and used him for the shenanigans & the real jailer is still out there.

There always must be a Jailer!

Heck, the Jailer was a malfunctioned bot at the end of the day. It's like he got free will... Uhm... Free Will and its source...

[milkmustache]

There always must be a Jailer!

Heck, the Jailer was a malfunctioned bot at the end of the day. It's like he got free will... Uhm... Free Will and its source...

Oh god, you've just doomed us to at least 3 more pages of this nonsense. What have you done?!