The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Makorus]

People bitch about WoW being alt-unfriendly and in the same breath want WQs to reset every day.

I hope you realize that if WQs were daily, it would still be the same amount per week as it is now?

The player base having this infatuation with absolutely needing a reason to play every single day for 8 hours a day is so unhealthy and counter-productive, it's baffling.

[Nymrohd]

People bitch about WoW being alt-unfriendly and in the same breath want WQs to reset every day.

I hope you realize that if WQs were daily, it would still be the same amount per week as it is now?

The player base having this infatuation with absolutely needing a reason to play every single day for 8 hours a day is so unhealthy and counter-productive, it's baffling.

I mean you can play for much longer than 8 hours without world quests anyway. Do some dungeons, do some pvp, heck farm for profession materials or grind for mounts and pets.

[arandomuser]

10.0.5 has some things connected to Lunar Festival, right? So it should launch in 2 weeks.

In that case I think 'Primalist Tomorrow' thing will be just some post raid questline (Raszageth LFR also launch that day btw) and it won't be on PTR at all like 9.2.5 story.

the primalist future is like that area in the sand place you can go to itl have like a primal storm type event in there u can farm more 385 catchup gear faster on the ptr atm, though its not finished it seems no blue post on it or its intent though atm

[Makabreska]

Well, Blizz said we will get a strong idea of who will be the final baddy at the end of current patch, and we get a 10.0.7. So defo big lore stuff in there.

[Zulggun]

Visions and Torghast were just an another form of AoE grind.

If you overgear them, maybe. This was not their goal tho, especially with Visions where you had clear objectives and ways to approach them to fit the timer.

[Revamp Man]

If you overgear them, maybe. This was not their goal tho, especially with Visions where you had clear objectives and ways to approach them to fit the timer.

You definitely couldn't aoe 5 mask visions without overgearing them so idk what they are talking about

I kinda miss visions tbh

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Well, Blizz said we will get a strong idea of who will be the final baddy at the end of current patch, and we get a 10.0.7. So defo big lore stuff in there.

Going back to the forbidden reach means we get OG and deathwing stuff

I believe that we will have chromatus appear because of the twilight presence

[Nymrohd]

You definitely couldn't aoe 5 mask visions without overgearing them so idk what they are talking about

I kinda miss visions tbh

Honestly I finished visions with a rank 12 cloak and it was a solid challenge, harder than some of the mage towers for sure. Even with a rank 15 cloak and good corruptions/gear you still had to pay attention and do things properly.

[Gurahk]

My problem with visions was how -annoying- some of the affixes were, there were so many CCs left and right.

[Sondrelk]

You definitely couldn't aoe 5 mask visions without overgearing them so idk what they are talking about

I kinda miss visions tbh

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Going back to the forbidden reach means we get OG and deathwing stuff

I believe that we will have chromatus appear because of the twilight presence

We still don't really know what the Shattered Flame want either. Loads of areas are still unused, or at least mostly unused. The Veiled Ossuary being one that, heile having visited, we still haven't really done much story stuff in.

[Nathanyel]

The Broker Cosmology Chart is the same, neat compartmentalized view just rotated slightly to favour Death above other forces.

Yes, that's what I mean. While Brokers aren't "mortal" per se, they are on a comparable "power level" ~ understanding.
My point is, their way of looking at things puts different things in "opposition" or next to each other, when it's likely less constrained.

What about the existence of the Zereth system? I thought it's already been strongly suggested that there exist five others perfectly in line with what we know about the Cosmic Forces spreadsheet. We also know that the Nathrezim were upholding the exact same separation of forces according to Enemy Infiltration.

I may have overemphasized this, I didn't mean there aren't 6 distinguishable forces, but that any attempt to categorize/order them with mortal understanding is flawed.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I didn't mean there aren't 6 distinguishable forces, but that any attempt to categorize/order them with mortal understanding is flawed.

I don't think that resolves the issue of the forces being fairly one-note, sometimes nonsensical in design, and the existence of the strict categories. The Zereth system existing in itself implies that the six are absolute, and that they are meant to exist mainly in themselves, only overlapping where relevant to the material realm. Even if the specific system of organization in Chronicles isn't accurate, the magic system has still been compartmentalized in a very ineffective way, and the forces and their associate spheres of influence are often contradictory with previously-established lore, make little sense under sufficient scrutiny, and generally are poorly-assigned. The "mortal understanding" bit does absolutely nothing to suggest that this somehow isn't a system of strict category, nor does it do anything to resolve the serious conceptual flaws with the cosmic forces system in itself.

The main issue, insofar as I perceive it, is that the cosmic forces are still strictly compartmentalized into a system which can produce about as much complexity as Pokemon types. I've said this before, but I can't really see anything coming out of this system other than a laundry list of theme parks to romp through full of their respective automata mindlessly pursuing some set of poorly-defined goals vaguely adjacent to the sphere of influence assigned to their force.

[Berkilak]

The main issue, insofar as I perceive it, is that the cosmic forces are still strictly compartmentalized into a system which can produce about as much complexity as Pokemon types. I've said this before, but I can't really see anything coming out of this system other than a laundry list of theme parks to romp through full of their respective automata mindlessly pursuing some set of poorly-defined goals vaguely adjacent to the sphere of influence assigned to their force.

Which is precisely why it is wise to keep the inner workings of your cosmology behind closed doors in a design bible - not flaunting it as a replacement for an actual narrative for the world to see. The world will see the limits and flaws of that cosmology pretty quickly. No matter how good a writer you are, no provided explanation will expand the scope of a fictional universe more than a simple mystery can.

[Lady Atia]

To each their own, but if you find pressing a button when you see a bird more engaging than actually using your character, then I'm not surprised that you have problem finding words.

Ehm, I have mythic raiding as something where I have to "use my character". The game needs more stuff that changes the formula like pet battles or the new dragonflight open world stuff, not more (and more lame versions ala visions) of the same stuff that I already have to do in my raid/m+ runs lol.

[infinitemeridian]

Visions were amazing, some of the most fun I've had with the game since MT. The game desperately needs more things like that. Single player challenges with interesting rewards and progression.

[Kokolums]

Visions were amazing, some of the most fun I've had with the game since MT. The game desperately needs more things like that. Single player challenges with interesting rewards and progression.

absolutely not. in fact, blizz should discourage people like you from playing wow.

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Which is precisely why it is wise to keep the inner workings of your cosmology behind closed doors in a design bible - not flaunting it as a replacement for an actual narrative for the world to see. The world will see the limits and flaws of that cosmology pretty quickly. No matter how good a writer you are, no provided explanation will expand the scope of a fictional universe more than a simple mystery can.

we saw this huge problem destroy the tv show LOST. which makes it surprising blizz went down the same path.

[Berkilak]

we saw this huge problem destroy the tv show LOST. which makes it surprising blizz went down the same path.

Lost committed a worse sin than even Shadowlands in that it never had the answers while the mystery was being written. It's like a teacher who would devise an examination without creating an answer key or rubric, hastily trying to devise one after the test has been taken.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Which is precisely why it is wise to keep the inner workings of your cosmology behind closed doors in a design bible - not flaunting it as a replacement for an actual narrative for the world to see. The world will see the limits and flaws of that cosmology pretty quickly. No matter how good a writer you are, no provided explanation will expand the scope of a fictional universe more than a simple mystery can.

That's perfectly fair, though I do want to stress that I don't think high-concept lore is bad per se. Higher-concept lore, where effectively executed, can do a great deal to distinguish your fantasy setting from the rest—one important thing, I think, is that the high-concept lore should remain exactly that: high-concept. Although I think it's fair to show it on its face, I don't think it's a good idea to reduce the deepest mysteries of the cosmos to a set piece for a new raid. I think an expansion of in-universe scholarship is one good way of going about it—it makes the world feel far more alive and keeps some sense of mystery whilst simultaneously illuminating certain elements of the lore with some wiggle room for later. It also should manifest mostly through its material influence, rather than directly. It's far more interesting to explore the idea of an overarching good or evil acting through mortal agents than have those forces be reduced to what are effectively nothing more than exceptionally powerful agents of their respective force who are otherwise psychologically, physiologically, and behaviorally human.

Most importantly, however, these higher-concept things should have a sense of permanence. I think, depending on the setting, it may be perfectly fair to fight an incarnation of a higher-concept entity, but it should absolutely survive the encounter. These higher-concept elements should serve as the linchpin for the rest of your lore, and encounters with them should feel awe-inducing, more like a fleeting encounter with something beyond yourself than a final confrontation with a typical antagonist or a brief interaction with your typical mentor figure.

Most importantly, the highest section of the highest-concept lore should remain fairly abstract, primarily felt through its effects. They could chat you up from time-to-time, or manifest themselves prominently through important agents, but these entities should remain representations of abstract concepts that you can't permanently kill with twenty-four mercenaries.

Warcraft, as a world that is valuable per se rather than as a stage for a particular narrative, should especially take care to induce a sense of permanence and potentially even subjectivity to its cosmology, using it to frame all the conflicts we experience rather than as another tier of conflict for us to breeze through in the span of two years. A great cosmic war should span aeons beyond human calculation, and should have ramifications that we experience more through inexplicable post-magical phenomena (think Dragon Breaks, Void Nights) rather than be wrapped up neatly by a few mortal agents in two years. The transcendent should remain transcendent, and in the few cases where we do fundamentally alter it, it should be treated with the appropriate gravity and remain mostly on the lower levels.

Exploring the totality of the afterlife was an exceptionally stupid idea, for instance. It would've been very cool to have a brief period during which we venture into the afterlife for a limited time, seeing the wonders of the reality beyond our own and being reminded of how supremely small we are. For a whole expansion, a dark reflection of Northrend in the space between the true afterlife and our world would've been decent. However, delving straight into a higher realm with the express intention of "kill everything" only cheapened it, reducing the afterlife to another set piece for us to kill baddies in full of fallible, humanlike entities (and let's not even go into the rather iffy implications that you can just be obliterated by receiving mortal wounds in the Shadowlands, and this happens very frequently to our enemies throughout the expansion).

The Cosmic Chart was a bad idea because it diluted any potential for an underlying conflict to define the setting and serve as a source for all the conflicts we experience on Azeroth, though it didn't wholly destroy it by at least introducing a Light-Void conflict. The primary problem was the choice of forces and the strict compartmentalization and exclusivity of anything except for the Light and Void. It also made things like the Arcane leading into the Fel nonsensical because these otherwise-exclusive forces somehow still lead into the other through excessive exploration. This could've at least been resolved by portraying it as cyclical or two sides of the same coin like with the Light and Void, but this was not done. The First Ones were an exceptionally terrible idea because they reintroduced the Titans, but on a larger scale and outwardly diluting the importance of the Cosmic Forces to various categories of magic, which will invariably be full of their respective throngs of automatons whose problems can only be resolved by the wisdom of irrelevant fleshy animals with meat brains and violence. Making the First Ones a pantheon or race akin to the Titans, who unlike the First Ones made sense and added to the setting because they were in a position where it made sense for them to exist in an unclear state between actual deities and advanced aliens, also undermined any potential transcendent conflict underlying the lore because it would now unequivocally manifest as a set of beings which evidently function in a fairly anthropomorphic fashion and attached concepts which would presumably have to exceed the Cosmic Forces to a group of likely-fallible people.

[Makabreska]

10.0.5 arrival announced for January 24.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

I just think that they have no solutions to the Cosmos Plotline. Azeroths' Soul is a Black Hole for narrative purposes at this point. It has overly consumed the entire franchise to an unhealthy degree. This expansion potentially turning out to be a Redemption Story for BFA by another "Infinite 4D Chess Plan" by another Cosmic Being. It all just get really tiring.

Old Gods are even worse because they are literally encrusted into Azeroth which kind of makes the whole situation even more insane because you cannot let them win yet Blizzard whenever they return to Azeroth continues to utilize a plot element which they cannot do anything interesting with like "winning" because it ends the franchise.

Even if Void/Old Gods weren't an element. Every other Force want the power of Azeroth for itself until we'll see a direction change in that regard.

They desperately need to get out of this timeloop of Azeroth's World Soul being core to the current storyline. They need to build character stories and location-based stories rather than focusing in on grand scope narrative that they cannot do anything with because they need to sell a box every 2 years and Old Gods stopping that will not fly by the suits and hence we get awkward endings like BFA where it just "ends" with no clarity because leaving it keeps fans coping that N'zoth tricked us all.

Honestly even now I think the Fan Theory in the community is absurd because if Old Gods basically removed their only weakness by corruption of Aman'thuls empowered Time Dragons. You've essentially just created a force that inevitably will win. Sure, there's the galaxy brain 3 Timeline Path theory but again "come on.".

I am just kind of tired of this whole shtick. Sure, I take the redemption arc if they are going for it since I thought it was so disrespectful what they did to the Old Gods and the way Ion conducted himself in that interview after the Ny'alotha race was god awful. But, again what is the outcome here exactly that they can play off that satisfies fans of Old Gods and doesn't involve the end of Azeroth. The only option is Xal'atath solution and again I doubt everyone would be happy with the "Oh wow Void Expansion on the horizon 2.0" ending. But, hey not many other solutions at play.

Still kind of want it to just be a simple Galakrond ressurection / Murozond expansion where Murozond is lame as fuck and can't do any timey wimey shit where we get sent to the Overwatch Universe/CoD Universe at the end. (hyperbolic)

[Varodoc]

I just think that they have no solutions to the Cosmos Plotline. Azeroths' Soul is a Black Hole for narrative purposes at this point. It has overly consumed the entire franchise to an unhealthy degree. This expansion potentially turning out to be a Redemption Story for BFA by another "Infinite 4D Chess Plan" by another Cosmic Being. It all just get really tiring.

Old Gods are even worse because they are literally encrusted into Azeroth which kind of makes the whole situation even more insane because you cannot let them win yet Blizzard whenever they return to Azeroth continues to utilize a plot element which they cannot do anything interesting with like "winning" because it ends the franchise.

Even if Void/Old Gods weren't an element. Every other Force want the power of Azeroth for itself until we'll see a direction change in that regard.

They desperately need to get out of this timeloop of Azeroth's World Soul being core to the current storyline. They need to build character stories and location-based stories rather than focusing in on grand scope narrative that they cannot do anything with because they need to sell a box every 2 years and Old Gods stopping that will not fly by the suits and hence we get awkward endings like BFA where it just "ends" with no clarity because leaving it keeps fans coping that N'zoth tricked us all.

Honestly even now I think the Fan Theory in the community is absurd because if Old Gods basically removed their only weakness by corruption of Aman'thuls empowered Time Dragons. You've essentially just created a force that inevitably will win. Sure, there's the galaxy brain 3 Timeline Path theory but again "come on.".

I am just kind of tired of this whole shtick. Sure, I take the redemption arc if they are going for it since I thought it was so disrespectful what they did to the Old Gods and the way Ion conducted himself in that interview after the Ny'alotha race was god awful. But, again what is the outcome here exactly that they can play off that satisfies fans of Old Gods and doesn't involve the end of Azeroth. The only option is Xal'atath solution and again I doubt everyone would be happy with the "Oh wow Void Expansion on the horizon 2.0" ending. But, hey not many other solutions at play.

Still kind of want it to just be a simple Galakrond ressurection / Murozond expansion where Murozond is lame as fuck and can't do any timey wimey shit where we get sent to the Overwatch Universe/CoD Universe at the end. (hyperbolic)

People don't care if the Old Gods lose, they just want more Old God story involvement.

Old Gods are one of the OG villains of WoW along with the Legion. Every single expansion was impacted by the Old Gods in some way, except for Shadowlands (that we know of at present, that might change with new revelations in the future). C'Thun and Yogg-Saron are two of the most iconic MMORPGs bosses ever. Furthermore, while the Legion got a definitive ending with the destruction of their command structure and the banishment of Sargeras, the Old Gods haven't. By writing N'Zoth as a trickster master of illusions, who chose his own pocket dimension as the battleground, Blizzard reserved ample opportunity to write them back into the Story in a way that feels organic and logical.

Which is what is happening right now. Blizzard is obviously writing the Old Gods back into the story, but since the ending of Ny'alotha is intentionally ambiguous, people aren't crying or complaining; they are actually intrigued and discussing all the new possibilities and the new whispers.

The Old Gods have always been one of the most talked-about topics in the WoW community. They regularly get new speculation threads about them (maybe not so much in this forum, but tbf this forum is dead and barely gets one new thread per week) and they are typically a source of much speculation online. It makes sense for Blizzard to continue their cryptic and mysterious story.

People always have a soft spot for the OG villains, the villains that were there since the beginning. And the Old Gods were literally there since 2003 (WC3 TFT, referring to all the faceless ones and the Old God behemoth Arthas fought in the Nerubian fallen kingdom). In WoW, Old Gods have been OG villains since 2004, with C'Thun serving as one of the main antagonists and end bosses of Classic, and Old God minions like Nefarian and Onyxia also serving as iconic old villains.

So people don't really care if the Old Gods lose. But Old God lore is objectively intriguing and fascinating to discuss, with all the cryptic messages that are constantly dissected and analysed online. Look at how many people still bring up old 2016 whispers from Il'gynoth, 7 years later. Blizzard obviously realizes that people are factually interested in Old Gods, that's why they continue this plotline and added a whole new set of whispers for DF, which are at present being discussed and dissected amply online.

You can't deny that the Old Gods are badass as a villain archetype. People love the villain archetype of this unfathomable ancient evil that talks in riddles and prefers cunning and manipulation over brute strength. And I don't think that the reveal that they are just puppets of the Void Lords really ruins them; because, in the end, they remain charismatic and interesting villains that people want to see more of.