The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Gurahk]

Still kind of want it to just be a simple Galakrond ressurection / Murozond expansion where Murozond is lame as fuck and can't do any timey wimey shit where we get sent to the Overwatch Universe/CoD Universe at the end. (hyperbolic)

Here's what I want to happen:
Nozdormu turns into Murozond in this expansion, we don't defeat him, leads us to the next expansion.
Next expansion takes place yet again on AU-Draenor (it's a pocket universe to the main timeline, so no paradoxes here), this time in the aftermath of the Mag'har questline. Here's the thing though, the 'evil' Yrel we saw was actually a dreadlord, let me explain.
The dreadlords have basically infiltrated the light, and used some sort of ritual on a couple of Naaru's to turn them into empty husks of the light, basically beings that purely want to enforce the wishes of the light, without the compassion part that we usually see in Naarus. This is why the Naarus acted like they did in AU-Draenor.
Horde teams up with the rest of the Mag'har that did not flee, under the command of uhh.. let's say a child of a previous Warlord, like Blackhand, alongside Gey'arah and Thrall. The alliance teams up with the actual Yrel and a couple of the Draenei that saw the truth and escaped, alongside Turalyon and the lightforged.
Zones could be a mix of a couple of Draenor zones, along with new ones like Farahlon and the ogre continent. And since this is a Murozond expansion, it doesn't just take place in Draenor, lots of chances for fun dungeons and questlines like the one we saw in Thaldraszus.
Got a little carried away here, I just want them to re-take a look at the current state of AU-Draenor.

[Nymrohd]

Honestly the best thing they could have done would be to follow up on whoever had said that Azeroth was actually dead and we were just its children and thus heirs. Make the planet stillborn and all of us who defended her carry her spark. The idea that after all that has happened, Azeroth gets born just fine is beyond stupid. I mean just suffering to Magni calling her "lass" all the time. Unless of course she is the "final boss" of the setting.

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Here's what I want to happen:
Nozdormu turns into Murozond in this expansion, we don't defeat him, leads us to the next expansion.
Next expansion takes place yet again on AU-Draenor (it's a pocket universe to the main timeline, so no paradoxes here), this time in the aftermath of the Mag'har questline. Here's the thing though, the 'evil' Yrel we saw was actually a dreadlord, let me explain.
The dreadlords have basically infiltrated the light, and used some sort of ritual on a couple of Naaru's to turn them into empty husks of the light, basically beings that purely want to enforce the wishes of the light, without the compassion part that we usually see in Naarus. This is why the Naarus acted like they did in AU-Draenor.
Horde teams up with the rest of the Mag'har that did not flee, under the command of uhh.. let's say a child of a previous Warlord, like Blackhand, alongside Gey'arah and Thrall. The alliance teams up with the actual Yrel and a couple of the Draenei that saw the truth and escaped, alongside Turalyon and the lightforged.
Zones could be a mix of a couple of Draenor zones, along with new ones like Farahlon and the ogre continent. And since this is a Murozond expansion, it doesn't just take place in Draenor, lots of chances for fun dungeons and questlines like the one we saw in Thaldraszus.
Got a little carried away here, I just want them to re-take a look at the current state of AU-Draenor.

I've thought of this but instead of going to AU Draenor I would have had Yrel or whoever find a way to merge AU Draenor with our Outland. So you'd have a mix of ravaged Draenor zones and revamped Outland zones.

[Gurahk]

Honestly the best thing they could have done would be to follow up on whoever had said that Azeroth was actually dead and we were just its children and thus heirs. Make the planet stillborn and all of us who defended her carry her spark. The idea that after all that has happened, Azeroth gets born just fine is beyond stupid. I mean just suffering to Magni calling her "lass" all the time. Unless of course she is the "final boss" of the setting.

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I've thought of this but instead of going to AU Draenor I would have had Yrel or whoever find a way to merge AU Draenor with our Outland. So you'd have a mix of ravaged Draenor zones and revamped Outland zones.

That'd actually be sick, though I'd still want my interpretation of what happened with the "Lightbound", as the one we got currently in game is incredibly forced. I'd rather it just have it be the work of the dreadlords than villain-batting Yrel.

[Nymrohd]

That'd actually be sick, though I'd still want my interpretation of what happened with the "Lightbound", as the one we got currently in game is incredibly forced. I'd rather it just have it be the work of the dreadlords than villain-batting Yrel.

I still don't see the villain. Draenor was getting destroyed but we don't really know why. It could be the Orcs, it could be the Light, it could be simply the timeline collapsing and destabilizing everything. But something convinced Yrel that the orcs were to blame (and going by their history with the planet in our timeline, who'd blame her) and the Light Mother had a clear plan. The fact that the Draenei trusted them in the first place after what happened is crazy. And it is clear several orcs AGREED with her because several joined willingly (and it is unclear if there is forceful conversion).

[Gurahk]

I still don't see the villain. Draenor was getting destroyed but we don't really know why. It could be the Orcs, it could be the Light, it could be simply the timeline collapsing and destabilizing everything. But something convinced Yrel that the orcs were to blame (and going by their history with the planet in our timeline, who'd blame her) and the Light Mother had a clear plan.

The thing is, even if someone is in the "right" or has somewhat of a point in WoW, it never ends well. The Forsworn had a point, yet they were genocidal maniacs because???
From what we see in the questline, the Naaru are capturing orcs and brainwashing them, whether those orcs did something bad or not doesn't really excuse that action, considering most of the orcs in that world aren't really responsible for what happened with the Iron Horde, and the actual ancestors who were in the Iron Horde are either crippled and old, or dead.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Returning to Outland(As in OUtland WoD Draenor) would be interesting is all I'm gonna say. I'm already afraid an underground expansion is...well dead in the water(Since we're going underground soon).

[Gurahk]

Returning to Outland(As in OUtland WoD Draenor) would be interesting is all I'm gonna say. I'm already afraid an underground expansion is...well dead in the water(Since we're going underground soon).

Would be fun if the underground zone isn't limited to one patch, imagine if it got expanded in 10.2 with yet another zone.
My biggest concern however is the size of the zone, especially with dragonriding.

[Berkilak]

Although I think it's fair to show it on its face, I don't think it's a good idea to reduce the deepest mysteries of the cosmos to a set piece for a new raid.

Don't get me wrong - I do think there's a universe in which Shadowlands was done right. You can definitely have players visit a high concept setting successfully without torpedoing the credibility of your overall setting. You simply follow the foremost guiding rule of any visual storytelling medium: show, don't tell. As far as video games go, From Software is probably the only developer that does this well. A few hidden hints at direct information here and there with the vast majority of the narrative of the world explored environmentally rather than via an actual narrative.

Could you imagine in Elden Ring took the Shadowlands approach to storytelling? Wherein, as soon as you're dropped into the world, you are told explicitly where you fit in, why you are the most important being in the universe, followed by a tour of every zone explicitly narrating to you the inner workings of every faction, organization, nation, and god present in the setting? No mystery left to our imagination? It certainly would have been received differently.

Now imagine, in exchange, we get a Shadowlands wherein we are dropped into the setting with the relatable goal of rescuing our leaders, but that's it. Same setting, but the denizens of the Shadowlands are as inscrutable as they were meant to be. Instead, we learn about the world through environmental storytelling and piecing together the lore ourselves from a scant few direct clues. Some may complain about "no story," but it would be a different conversation regardless.

For example, in this alternate universe, the "Maw Walker Theory" speculation thread on Reddit would get downvoted into oblivion when someone tried to figure out how we were able to escape the Maw. The community calls it a trash theory because they don't want this "Chosen One" narrative applied to the player character. And it is quickly forgotten, aside from the odd meme. He was, of course, completely accurate. But the power of artistic interpretation of the material ensured that Blizzard was not "on the hook" for such a contrived narrative choice.

If you have a high concept setting, you should endeavour to only let the reader know directly what the protagonist needs to know to tell the story. Emphasis on "need." We don't need to know what Zereth Mortis is to follow the Jailer there, nor how it works. Leave that to the lore hounds to sniff out. Hell, in this thread alone, we already theorized exactly what it was based on the name alone, not to mention a few creative suggestions that were heads and tails above Blizzard's writing. Allow the players to actually think and come to their own conclusions. We are always saying that the art team carried Blizzard - let them carry the bulk of the storytelling as well, if the alternative is superfluous exposition dumps in lieu of character-driven narratives. Letting the players themselves elevate the material by filling in blanks that were never meant to be filled.

[Nymrohd]

I just want a modern take on the ethereal biodomes. They just looked amazing back in TBC and seeing them in current graphics would be amazing.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I just want a modern take on the ethereal biodomes. They just looked amazing back in TBC and seeing them in current graphics would be amazing.

Agreed. A K'Aresh expansion has always been a point of interest for me.

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Don't get me wrong - I do think there's a universe in which Shadowlands was done right. You can definitely have players visit a high concept setting successfully without torpedoing the credibility of your overall setting. You simply follow the foremost guiding rule of any visual storytelling medium: show, don't tell. As far as video games go, From Software is probably the only developer that does this well. A few hidden hints at direct information here and there with the vast majority of the narrative of the world explored environmentally rather than via an actual narrative.

Could you imagine in Elden Ring took the Shadowlands approach to storytelling? Wherein, as soon as you're dropped into the world, you are told explicitly where you fit in, why you are the most important being in the universe, followed by a tour of every zone explicitly narrating to you the inner workings of every faction, organization, nation, and god present in the setting? No mystery left to our imagination? It certainly would have been received differently.

Now imagine, in exchange, we get a Shadowlands wherein we are dropped into the setting with the relatable goal of rescuing our leaders, but that's it. Same setting, but the denizens of the Shadowlands are as inscrutable as they were meant to be. Instead, we learn about the world through environmental storytelling and piecing together the lore ourselves from a scant few direct clues. Some may complain about "no story," but it would be a different conversation regardless.

For example, in this alternate universe, the "Maw Walker Theory" speculation thread on Reddit would get downvoted into oblivion when someone tried to figure out how we were able to escape the Maw. The community calls it a trash theory because they don't want this "Chosen One" narrative applied to the player character. And it is quickly forgotten, aside from the odd meme. He was, of course, completely accurate. But the power of artistic interpretation of the material ensured that Blizzard was not "on the hook" for such a contrived narrative choice.

If you have a high concept setting, you should endeavour to only let the reader know directly what the protagonist needs to know to tell the story. Emphasis on "need." We don't need to know what Zereth Mortis is to follow the Jailer there, nor how it works. Leave that to the lore hounds to sniff out. Hell, in this thread alone, we already theorized exactly what it was based on the name alone, not to mention a few creative suggestions that were heads and tails above Blizzard's writing. Allow the players to actually think and come to their own conclusions. We are always saying that the art team carried Blizzard - let them carry the bulk of the storytelling as well, if the alternative is superfluous exposition dumps in lieu of character-driven narratives. Letting the players themselves elevate the material by filling in blanks that were never meant to be filled.

To be honest, I don't think that's really applicable to Warcraft—Warcraft is a fairly simplistic, surface-level setting in which visual or implicit narratives rarely work effectively. The reason I often cite Elder Scrolls as a superior setting to Warcraft is that both generally operate in a similar fashion—a dialogue-heavy narrative which is fairly easy to follow. From Software is a tad more subtle than either of those settings, and leaving things wholly ambiguous probably wouldn't work exceptionally well in Warcraft or Elder Scrolls. Instead, I think my preferred system for Warcraft is simply to maintain a set of direct narratives across different theatres while supplementing it with deeper, high-level cosmology which is designed to be somewhat subjective and mainly told to us through the perspectives of the characters.

An MMO can't really function very effectively when you apply the FromSoft treatment to it. Mind you, I much prefer the From Software philosophy of storytelling to more surface-level narratives, but I think it would be perfectly serviceable. To me, the ideal way of executing a story like Shadowlands in Warcraft is to make the primary setting be somewhere between the higher-concept realm and something closer to home. Legion did this fairly well, though they did sort of bungle it near the end with how unimpressive Argus ultimately was. Were I writing Shadowlands, I think I'd leave the original system of disjointed afterlives alone, but focus on the Shadowlands as something equivalent to the Veil we were introduced to in the expansion we got. This version of Shadowlands would be set in a dark reflection of Northrend, a liminal space occupying what exists between the material realm and more convoluted and alien places. Here we would be introduced to a set of familiar faces in semi-familiar locales—Teron Gorefiend would be a good figure to see there, for instance. The plot would remain focused on something with immediate weight and relevance to us, but the setting we're occupying would also serve as a means by which to explore higher-concept ideas.

However, this is far from the only way to execute that kind of plot effectively. The primary failure of Shadowlands was the introduction of the First Ones and the way the afterlives were structured—the narrative was semi-serviceable, if fundamentally idiotic. The worldbuiding, conversely, was downright disastrous for the setting's cosmology. Shadowlands' system of the afterlives would probably only work in an intentional cosmic horror story because of the unsettling implications thereof, and the revelation that the afterlife is simply "life, but again" is somewhat boring and unintentionally nihilistic because of the fact that probability states that most people in the Shadowlands will eventually take some kind of mortal wound over the coming aeons that is apparently sufficient to obliterate you entirely in the Shadowlands. Another alternative for the Shadowlands is to make the realms of death something more suitable to, well, the realms of death. If we must chain ourselves to the nonsense that was shoved down our throat during Chronicles, we may as well explore this particular cosmic force's reality as something more than an engine maintained by thoroughly humanlike and disgustingly moronic people. The other alternative I envisioned was that the Shadowlands would be treated more like a conventional plane. It would contain several demiplanes like in the Shadowlands that was released, but they would have little shared management and would mostly be disjointed. The orderly engine motif would be saved for the planes of order, and the Shadowlands would be more thematically-suitable to its associated cosmic force. It would also maintain its state as something of a reflection of the material plane, giving us a bit more of an anchor to the original setting and keeping things more consistent. There we would learn more about the cosmos and its origins, and pursue Teron Gorefiend through the Shadowlands to Nathreza, racing to prevent him from reviving its malevolent world-soul.

[Nymrohd]

However, this is far from the only way to execute that kind of plot effectively. The primary failure of Shadowlands was the introduction of the First Ones and the way the afterlives were structured—the narrative was semi-serviceable, if fundamentally idiotic. The worldbuiding, conversely, was downright disastrous for the setting's cosmology. Shadowlands' system of the afterlives would probably only work in an intentional cosmic horror story because of the unsettling implications thereof, and the revelation that the afterlife is simply "life, but again" is somewhat boring and unintentionally nihilistic because of the fact that probability states that most people in the Shadowlands will eventually take some kind of mortal wound over the coming aeons that is apparently sufficient to obliterate you entirely in the Shadowlands. Another alternative for the Shadowlands is to make the realms of death something more suitable to, well, the realms of death. If we must chain ourselves to the nonsense that was shoved down our throat during Chronicles, we may as well explore this particular cosmic force's reality as something more than an engine maintained by thoroughly humanlike and disgustingly moronic people. The other alternative I envisioned was that the Shadowlands would be treated more like a conventional plane. It would contain several demiplanes like in the Shadowlands that was released, but they would have little shared management and would mostly be disjointed. The orderly engine motif would be saved for the planes of order, and the Shadowlands would be more thematically-suitable to its associated cosmic force. It would also maintain its state as something of a reflection of the material plane, giving us a bit more of an anchor to the original setting and keeping things more consistent. There we would learn more about the cosmos and its origins, and pursue Teron Gorefiend through the Shadowlands to Nathreza, racing to prevent him from reviving its malevolent world-soul.

What I'd have done which would have been a truly minimal retcon as far as gameplay is concerned would be treat the Shadowlands as a transitive demiplane leading to Death. The Shadowlands would be an engine to siphon mortal souls to the afterlife but no one there would actually know what the afterlife looks like. The arbiter would send souls forwards into Death while keeping a chosen few to serve the machinery of Death.

Oribos and the rest would look exactly as they did, the Brokers would just be ethereals. Places like Korthia and Zereth Mortis would simply be beyond the Veil.

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Patch Notes: Orc, Tauren, and Highmountain Tauren priest NPCs have been removed from 10.0.5, but will make their appearances in a future update.
Maybe they listened and will try to add them back but better adapted to the NPCs' cultures instead of all of them looking like Holy Light Priests.

[Revamp Man]

10.1 raid
We got iridikron
The djaradin elder
And old gods

[Nymrohd]

10.1 raid
We got iridikron
The djaradin elder
And old gods

Yeah this largely is what I'd expect. Underground zone beneath Dragon Isles with Iridikron, the Djaradin, probably those dwarves that were mentioned. If they place it on the west of the Isles, the zone could be shown to extend close to Northrend which means it could be close to Yogg. Heck if they want to give the other Incarnates their own spotlight, the underground zone could have an access point that leads to Storm Peaks and they could do a Storm Peaks revamp and add the Frost Incarnate there as a world boss?

Would the Djaradin be part of the raid or be in a dungeon though? Given Neltharus was kept for the second season, I am assuming they will just be around in the zone and have a boss or two in the raid but I doubt they'd get the 10.1.5 MegaDungeon.

[Revamp Man]

Yeah this largely is what I'd expect. Underground zone beneath Dragon Isles with Iridikron, the Djaradin, probably those dwarves that were mentioned. If they place it on the west of the Isles, the zone could be shown to extend close to Northrend which means it could be close to Yogg. Heck if they want to give the other Incarnates their own spotlight, the underground zone could have an access point that leads to Storm Peaks and they could do a Storm Peaks revamp and add the Frost Incarnate there as a world boss?

Would the Djaradin be part of the raid or be in a dungeon though? Given Neltharus was kept for the second season, I am assuming they will just be around in the zone and have a boss or two in the raid but I doubt they'd get the 10.1.5 MegaDungeon.

The djaradin made a deal with him so I expect them to be in the raid
I think the mega dungeon will have us go against corrupted djaradin and might get to see titan forged

Honestly I'm fully expecting to see a group that sided with odyn thinking mortals aren't worth it so bring on Uber dwarves

[Nymrohd]

The djaradin made a deal with him so I expect them to be in the raid
I think the mega dungeon will have us go against corrupted djaradin and might get to see titan forged

Honestly I'm fully expecting to see a group that sided with odyn thinking mortals aren't worth it so bring on Uber dwarves

Do we need a second Djaradin dungeon when we have Neltharus though? Maybe if Djaradin get some really impressive architecture of their own.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

What I'd have done which would have been a truly minimal retcon as far as gameplay is concerned would be treat the Shadowlands as a transitive demiplane leading to Death. The Shadowlands would be an engine to siphon mortal souls to the afterlife but no one there would actually know what the afterlife looks like. The arbiter would send souls forwards into Death while keeping a chosen few to serve the machinery of Death.

That's an idea I think would've been pretty interesting. I think it would be kind of interesting if the Shadowlands were something of a celestial bureaucracy, and the people's single-mindedness would be a little more deliberate and make significantly more sense because of their far more narrow purview. It also would help to showcase a more symbiotic cosmic chart and wouldn't make points of overlap seem as nonsensical—in this particular instance, Death could even be perceived as the most harmless and well-reputed cosmic force, as it would help to ferry the souls of those who worship other forces to their chosen afterlives, such as the Light or Void. It would be a very nice subversion of expectations, too, which is something the team at Blizzard has been trying to pull and consistently failing at.

Death, after all, may not be strictly a matter of Order – the Shadowlands somehow felt more mechanical than anything we've seen relating to Order, which isn't exactly a good sign of consistent motifs across the board – but it is almost always a matter of bureaucracy and inevitability. The idea of a cooperative Death would make for a good look at what it could be outside the purview of necromancy, but without any of the absolute nonsense Shadowlands shoved down our throats.

[Lady Atia]

Do we need a second Djaradin dungeon when we have Neltharus though? Maybe if Djaradin get some really impressive architecture of their own.

Yeah, I think we will get the Djaradin Elders as part of the Iridikron raid, not as a seperate mega dungeon.

[Nymrohd]

That's an idea I think would've been pretty interesting. I think it would be kind of interesting if the Shadowlands were something of a celestial bureaucracy, and the people's single-mindedness would be a little more deliberate and make significantly more sense because of their far more narrow purview. It also would help to showcase a more symbiotic cosmic chart and wouldn't make points of overlap seem as nonsensical—in this particular instance, Death could even be perceived as the most harmless and well-reputed cosmic force, as it would help to ferry the souls of those who worship other forces to their chosen afterlives, such as the Light or Void. It would be a very nice subversion of expectations, too, which is something the team at Blizzard has been trying to pull and consistently failing at.

Death, after all, may not be strictly a matter of Order – the Shadowlands somehow felt more mechanical than anything we've seen relating to Order, which isn't exactly a good sign of consistent motifs across the board – but it is almost always a matter of bureaucracy and inevitability. The idea of a cooperative Death would make for a good look at what it could be outside the purview of necromancy, but without any of the absolute nonsense Shadowlands shoved down our throats.

I mean in that concept Death would be a mystery. No one in the Shadowlands would know what happens to the souls once they pass beyond the veil. Perhaps once we got to Korthia and Zereth Mortis we would find out that Death is actually oblivion or that it simply turns souls into fertilizer for Life. Zovaal might have rebeled simply out of a desire to know what he was consigning souls to or because he wanted power (and would effectively starve Life and cause creatures across the physical realm to be stillborn) even if simply to remove Death (and thus Life) from the equation.

Ofc that requires for our NPCs to actually show some sense of wonder when in the Shadowlands which was entirely absent. They were mostly looking to reconnect with old relatives or completely ignoring that they had the very meaning of Death presented before them cause they were completely absorbed by the Sylvanas/Anduin narrative. Or in the case of Baine, his apparent crippling case of hemorroids that kept him sitting in the same spot for over a year.

[Berkilak]

To be honest, I don't think that's really applicable to Warcraft—Warcraft is a fairly simplistic, surface-level setting in which visual or implicit narratives rarely work effectively.

I vehemently disagree with this. Not that WarCraft isn't simplistic and surface level, but that implicit storytelling doesn't work at that level. It absolutely does. Arguably more effectively at that level than any other. By simple omission, it would increase the quality of their storytelling tenfold. The player adds substance to that simple narrative simply by having their imagination unshackled. You can still have all the dots clearly numbered - it's the act of connecting them ourselves that is important.

This isn't a foreign concept to the WarCraft universe, either. From the Necrolytes of WarCraft I, to the horrors of the Dragonmaw Clan in WarCraft II, to the wonders of the Nerubians and the Faceless Ones of WarCraft III, to the original Titan lore of WoW... environmental and implicit storytelling has been an element all throughout the history of the franchise. It isn't some sort of avant garde, nuanced practice - it's a basic storytelling principle. It's natural world-building. I've said for years now that Shadowlands flipped these most basic of storytelling rules: it hid all of its character-driven drama behind the scenes and put a spotlight on its flimsy world-building.

When we were with Anub'arak and Arthas during their flight through Azjol-Nerub, there was minimal exposition on the nature of that fallen kingdom. The focus was on getting to Icecrown with our fallen protagonist. His story was in the spotlight. The story of the Nerubian Empire was flagrantly obvious for anyone paying attention, but it was not the central focus. It simply existed as a new element of this world. Arthas, and by consequence the player, learned only that which was immediately relevant. The rest was left to inference.

It can be as simple as that. It needn't be as arcane and obtuse as Elden Ring to be done well regardless.

The primary failure of Shadowlands was the introduction of the First Ones and the way the afterlives were structured—the narrative was semi-serviceable, if fundamentally idiotic.

Only because they spoonfed us all of that. If the First Ones were only known to us via some deeply nested reference in a book in some out of the way place rather than being the driving force of the so-called "narrative," we simply wouldn't know that their conception was idiotic, true as that statement might be. If we didn't know the scope of the five "main" afterlives - if we visited only the Maw, Bastion, Maldraxxus, Revendreth and Ardenweald simply because they were relevant to us, and not because they are functionally the only relevant afterlives in the cosmology, we'd view this very differently. As is, we are told that there are a potentially infinite amount of afterlives out of one side of Blizzard's mouth while the other is telling us that only these ones matter. But if they left these things up to implication, the issues with them would not be as glaring, if we even noticed them at all.

I don't think it beyond Blizzard's ability to simply tell us less when it comes to world-building and more when it comes to character development.

[Gurahk]

10.1 raid
We got iridikron
The djaradin elder
And old gods

Iridikiron is far too soon considering he's "hyped up" as the strongest of the four.