The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Sondrelk]

Not only Dragon Isles are right next to Northrend, the seat of Yogg-Saron from which his tendrils spread throughout the entire Roof of the World, but in addition we have new revelations that Galakrond was corrupted by Yogg-Saron precisely by drinking dark wateres twisted by the Old God. And N'Zoth has recently revealed that someone else will drink dark waters in the future and be reborn as a many-eyed beast (like Galakrond).

Put 2+2 together, this story is so predictable.

I was right btw. I've been predicting for months, since before DF was even announced, that 10.0 would have Old God/Void influence eventually. Did you know that I was right in my careful and methodical deductions of the future?

The drinking the waters part could be him talking about Galakrond though. It's still in the future compared to where we are, and it's placement in the levelling questline would mean it's prior to the confirmation in the interractible lore books that he is the reason Galakrond turned.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Based on(I think Danuser) comments we may learn more about the Primalists actions and what they've done. The Titans probably(this post may be outdated in the coming months >.>) won't look super bad. I am not expecting Tyr to be an enemy.

[Khaza-R]

They could let us fight them during questing. ESO has some of the biggest fights in lore available to you while you are questing. So maybe we fight them, they/we escape, then when we next find them they know about Iridikron they try to oppose him and get eaten.

That would be pretty interesting. As for eating his siblings...I could actually see Iridikron becoming Galakrond 2.0 as opposed to just straight up reviving him. It would also align with their statement that they didn't want the antagonist to come out of thin air.

Regardless, I really like how there's so many different directions the story could go at this point. In that respect, it reminds me very much of old school WoW where speculation ran wild.

[Varodoc]

The drinking the waters part could be him talking about Galakrond though. It's still in the future compared to where we are, and it's placement in the levelling questline would mean it's prior to the confirmation in the interractible lore books that he is the reason Galakrond turned.

N'Zoth used the plural form actually:

With many eyes, they will see again. They will drink, and be uplifted.

This is referring to Iridrikon and the rest of his brood. They will all drink and be uplifted. Iridrikon is massive but he can't carry an entire patch by himself.

Just like Deathwing was surrounded by misshapen Twilight dragons, Iridrikon will be surrounded by misshapen many-eyed dragons.

If he was referring to Galakrond, he would have used the singular pronoun form.

[Gurahk]

I think another possible scenario is Iridikiron maybe consuming what's left of Galakrond to turn into some sort of fusion between the two.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

I vehemently disagree with this. Not that WarCraft isn't simplistic and surface level, but that implicit storytelling doesn't work at that level. It absolutely does. Arguably more effectively at that level than any other. By simple omission, it would increase the quality of their storytelling tenfold. The player adds substance to that simple narrative simply by having their imagination unshackled. You can still have all the dots clearly numbered - it's the act of connecting them ourselves that is important . . . the Necrolytes of WarCraft I, to the horrors of the Dragonmaw Clan in WarCraft II, to the wonders of the Nerubians and the Faceless Ones of WarCraft III, to the original Titan lore of WoW . . . The story of the Nerubian Empire was flagrantly obvious for anyone paying attention, but it was not the central focus. It simply existed as a new element of this world. Arthas, and by consequence the player, learned only that which was immediately relevant. The rest was left to inference.

Admittedly, perhaps I was being too cynical about the capacities of Blizzard's writers. However, I do maintain this wouldn't have worked especially well for Shadowlands, especially since even the surface-level narratives and the implications contained therein, as well as in the basic concepts underlying the expansion, were also innately repugnant. I definitely understand your meaning in general, though, and I have to agree. I've always been of the mind that a greater deal of mystery would benefit the setting, because the things which were not explored substantially were the primary objects of speculation back when World of Warcraft was young and the fanbase maintained some degree of earnest passion for the lore. I do recall the days of Know Your Lore's Tinfoil Hat segments, which devoured plenty of my time during my childhood, and which actually ended up pinning some things down due to the sheer volume of speculation (though the "miserable little seedling" and "final Titan" quotes beat us over the head with the foreshadowing, assuming that was the original intention of them and they weren't just retroactively applied to the World-Soul tidbit). It would be wrong of me to deny that the open-ended nature of some facets of the lore left plenty to be inferred and explored, energizing the lore community.

The way I was reading Nymrohd's suggestion was drawing heavily on his choice to cite From Software as an example. I think I did hyperfocus on that specific comparison and their preferred means of presenting their lore rather than a blanket statement meant to suggest that the lore could be left more open-ended. I ardently maintain that nothing in the way of esoterica could have saved either the narrative or the worldbuilding of Shadowlands, however, and we've seen just how well the mysteries associated with that expansion turned out when they were left open-ended.

Only because they spoonfed us all of that. If the First Ones were only known to us via some deeply nested reference in a book in some out of the way place rather than being the driving force of the so-called "narrative," we simply wouldn't know that their conception was idiotic, true as that statement might be. If we didn't know the scope of the five "main" afterlives - if we visited only the Maw, Bastion, Maldraxxus, Revendreth and Ardenweald simply because they were relevant to us, and not because they are functionally the only relevant afterlives in the cosmology, we'd view this very differently. As is, we are told that there are a potentially infinite amount of afterlives out of one side of Blizzard's mouth while the other is telling us that only these ones matter. But if they left these things up to implication, the issues with them would not be as glaring, if we even noticed them at all.

On this I have to disagree—there are a number of additions which are inherently bad nigh-independent of execution. The First Ones are one of them. I think their mere addition to the lore, as well as the whole Zereth deal, was a disaster in itself due to its implications – and they only need to be implications to have this effect – for the rest of the setting's cosmology. The only way I could see the First Ones be redeemed conceptually, even in retrospect, is to limit their influence wholly to the Shadowlands and to do so not implicitly, but very explicitly. Although it would resolve some of the serious issues with the worldbuilding, it's been fairly transparently demonstrated to us that Blizzard is capable of decent worldbuilding—they simply screwed the pooch trying to work the Shadowlands in such a way it could be compatible with the Sylvanas redemption arc and whathaveyou. It seems like the whole expansion was worked around that central focus, and all exploration was focused on furthering that goal.

I do agree with your suggestion on the afterlives in the Shadowlands being better presented as just some of the several we storm through, but I still think that the presentation of the afterlives even in that theoretical circumstance would be a source of tremendous frustration. Certain elements of the fundamental stupidity of Shadowlands' worldbuilding would remain. I am absolutely of the mind that this was not a matter of us being given too much information on a concept so much as the concept in itself.

I don't think it beyond Blizzard's ability to simply tell us less when it comes to world-building and more when it comes to character development.

And this is where I have to stand my ground with the most tenacity, because that was only really applicable during Warcraft III. In World of Warcraft, the character arcs have remained very consistently mediocre, with only a few marginals presenting any good development. The narratives have historically been more of an excuse to drive us through the world, and this has worked perfectly fine for some time. Even what little can be enjoyed in the new lore is wholly limited to the worldbuilding or side bits—the characters, as they are now, are some of the most bland and irritating parts of the lore, and the further we are away from the hive-mind birthed from Danuser et al.'s metamorphosis of characters which previously could at least present the illusion of a personality, the better.

I mean in that concept Death would be a mystery. No one in the Shadowlands would know what happens to the souls once they pass beyond the veil. Perhaps once we got to Korthia and Zereth Mortis we would find out that Death is actually oblivion or that it simply turns souls into fertilizer for Life. Zovaal might have rebeled simply out of a desire to know what he was consigning souls to or because he wanted power (and would effectively starve Life and cause creatures across the physical realm to be stillborn) even if simply to remove Death (and thus Life) from the equation.

I'm not a particularly big fan of the idea that we find out that souls are fertilizer (unless you mean in the sense of reincarnation, in which case it could be interesting), much less that there isn't an actual afterlife in the world, because that does present some of the same issues as the lore we were given does. It's rather tonally-inconsistent and the whole thing feels more suitable for a cosmic horror story than a high fantasy setting like Warcraft. I do, however, figure that it would be best to leave the afterlife proper a mystery and reserve our exploration for a certain subset therein or a liminal space between life and death (as I went over in the theoretical). I do think that exploring the Shadowlands was a perfectly fine idea, however, and I think it's fair to explore Death as a cosmic force. It would be perfectly harmless to explore it, with the general suggestion that the cosmic force of Death doesn't wholly encapsulate every afterlife outside of marginal cases, but instead serves as a means by which to ferry souls to different afterlives within the purview of different cosmic forces. It would allow us to delve into that particular theme, and I think it would maintain a general sense of mystery while allowing us to touch on Death and the higher-concept tidbits in association with Death.

Ofc that requires for our NPCs to actually show some sense of wonder when in the Shadowlands which was entirely absent. They were mostly looking to reconnect with old relatives or completely ignoring that they had the very meaning of Death presented before them cause they were completely absorbed by the Sylvanas/Anduin narrative. Or in the case of Baine, his apparent crippling case of hemorroids that kept him sitting in the same spot for over a year.

On that part we agree. The worst possible way to squander a high-concept setting or associated concepts is to have the characters suddenly be deprived of any sense of introspection or curiosity and reduced to one-note materialist automata whose most relevant concerns with exploring the afterlife are "WOAHWIE I sure hope Andy's oki!!!!" It is such an extraordinary fuckup that it automatically obliterates any possibility for anything good to emerge from Shadowlands and our exploration of the afterlife.

[Greyvax]

That could be interpreted different ways though. Iridikrin is possible, but it could also be Galakrond or Murozond. Both would qualify for being a known threat after 10.0.
If you go even more out there then you could have N'zoth, Odyn/Titan Keepers, as valid options.

For that matter, I wouldn't be shocked if this ended up coming true in a way we don't expect, like Zovaal going to the Sepulcher, or even just being blatantly untrue.
Let's not forget that Grom was promised as a raid boss in WoD. The final one even, from what I remember.

The fact Grom wasn't the big bad was a travesty. Instead we got a recycled archimonde.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Honestly the best thing they could have done would be to follow up on whoever had said that Azeroth was actually dead and we were just its children and thus heirs. Make the planet stillborn and all of us who defended her carry her spark. The idea that after all that has happened, Azeroth gets born just fine is beyond stupid. I mean just suffering to Magni calling her "lass" all the time. Unless of course she is the "final boss" of the setting.

I honestly think Azeroth would be a perfectly fine permanent linchpin of the setting, but I do think there's some necessity to providing her with some character beyond the biggest and most resplendent of the Anduinites who is AHBSOLUTELY PEHRFECT and the STROHNKIST TITAN EVAH. I personally like to envision Azeroth as a force in the background, influencing things—she'd be something like an avatar of war, both the good (e.g. innovation, honor, solidarity) and the bad (e.g. environmental destruction, the casualties, loss of life and property), shaped by her impressionable mind absorbing the lesson that murder solves everything from the rather nasty experiences of her nascent existence. I think it would be a nice addition to the divinities of the setting, and would provide a sort of "face" for prominent themes in the setting.

[Makorus]

The fact Grom wasn't the big bad was a travesty. Instead we got a recycled archimonde.

Was it though? Yet another Orc as a final boss would have been a big stinker. He didn't even have any interestings things about him like Blackhand or Garrosh.

I feel like Blizzard had the right idea with where they were going with WoDs final boss, I just feel like it came out of nowhere. It set up Legion perfectly, and Archimonde was one of the best fights in the game.

Not saying they could have done something better, but anything would have been better than Grom.

[Berkilak]

The fact Grom wasn't the big bad was a travesty. Instead we got a recycled archimonde.

I would be surprised if Archimonde was the original plan.

[Makabreska]

The fact Grom wasn't the big bad was a travesty. Instead we got a recycled archimonde.

Oh ye, I am sure Hordies would loooove two orc warchiefs as a final boss in a row. Instead we got a "Draenor is freeee" ending of a genocidal rampage.

[Nymrohd]

Was it though? Yet another Orc as a final boss would have been a big stinker. He didn't even have any interestings things about him like Blackhand or Garrosh.

I feel like Blizzard had the right idea with where they were going with WoDs final boss, I just feel like it came out of nowhere. It set up Legion perfectly, and Archimonde was one of the best fights in the game.

Not saying they could have done something better, but anything would have been better than Grom.

I am assuming the original plan for WoD had a middle tier with a Shattrath raid and would have had the time to establish Grom better than that single cinematic with Gul'dan. Plus Gorgrond would have been all orc since they wouldn't have squished Faralhon on it.

- - - Updated - - -

Instead we got a "Draenor is freeee" ending of a genocidal rampage.

That part I will never understand. We have Yrel and Durotan being friends at this point. That was enough. Why whitewash the Iron Horde at the last second when you have the Frostwolves? I guess because they largely removed Orgrim's arc when they changed the plots of Gorgrond and Talador?

[Makorus]

I am assuming the original plan for WoD had a middle tier with a Shattrath raid and would have had the time to establish Grom better than that single cinematic with Gul'dan. Plus Gorgrond would have been all orc since they wouldn't have squished Faralhon on it.

- - - Updated - - -



That part I will never understand. We have Yrel and Durotan being friends at this point. That was enough. Why whitewash the Iron Horde at the last second when you have the Frostwolves? I guess because they largely removed Orgrim's arc when they changed the plots of Gorgrond and Talador?

But even with Grom being established, he is literally just an Orc. Unless they pull the character assination of "Oh, he actually WILL be fel-corrupted " on him, there's nothing to him.

[Makabreska]

That part I will never understand. We have Yrel and Durotan being friends at this point. That was enough. Why whitewash the Iron Horde at the last second when you have the Frostwolves? I guess because they largely removed Orgrim's arc when they changed the plots of Gorgrond and Talador?

I guess that is yet another victim of WoD being cut short.

[Nymrohd]

I guess that is yet another victim of WoD being cut short.

Yeah Orgrim was probably their opportunity to show an Orc that was part of the Iron Horde but actually rebelled.

- - - Updated - - -

But even with Grom being established, he is literally just an Orc. Unless they pull the character assination of "Oh, he actually WILL be fel-corrupted " on him, there's nothing to him.

Oh I did not mean to have Grom as a final villain. He could have just died. Or been turned into some mindless fel berserker boss in HFC. I just want someone responsible for a genocide to be punished in WoW.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

If being put in the Maw to rescue all the souls one has damned isn't punishment, I wonder what the heck game you are playing.(In terms of punishment for near genocide)

[Khaza-R]

If being put in the Maw to rescue all the souls one has damned isn't punishment, I wonder what the heck game you are playing.(In terms of punishment for near genocide)

That's not really punishment. That's atonement.

Also, its very clear the whole thing is going to be hand-waived away as time moves faster in the Maw. She's going to be back in a couple of expansions claiming she spent thousands of years in the Maw and we can't understand her suffering. Its going to make her all the more unbearable.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

That's not really punishment. That's atonement.

Also, its very clear the whole thing is going to be hand-waived away as time moves faster in the Maw. She's going to be back in a couple of expansions claiming she spent thousands of years in the Maw and we can't understand her suffering. Its going to make her all the more unbearable.

Ugh, if it goes that direction, my brain will fucking fry. It's already bad enough that she essentially gets a "uh, just clean up your mess to the best of your ability" after she starts a global war with the added caveat, of which she was presumably fully aware, that everybody who died in said war would be condemned to eternal torment and possibly metaphysical obliteration.

Mind you, I love a good atonement arc. I'm Catholic, so that sort of thing deeply appeals to me. However, there's a certain framing necessary for that kind of thing, and "AHKTUALLY I was worried I wouldn't get to hang out with my family in the afterlife!" is used as a bit of a smokescreen to preclude a full atonement, even though that offers pretty minimal diminished responsibility relative to the crime, if any. It's especially awkward with how she openly thanks the player for sticking by her in spite of everything she did if you were a Loyalist back during BfA, which further diminishes the appearance of actual atonement.

[Gurahk]

Sylvanas dying was supposed to be the only satisfying part of Shadowlands, being denied that just made Shadowlands all the more rage-inducing. Not even the cut content of Draenor has made me this miserable on the state of the game.

[Zulggun]

Yeah, yeah. They should make a special, real-life like cinematic showing her death, dismembering and stuff. With her begging for her life and forgiveness and we get to choose if we want to give her that but the only options are "NO" and "NOOOO".