The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Where are you getting this night elf propaganda from? Because we know Wild Gods, a.k.a. Loa, because they're the same thing, as clarified in Shadowlands, lived there & the Night Elves were afraid of them. There are Dark Trolls living on Hyjal in Warcraft 3, so the idea that its this established Night Elf territory isn't true. If it's not one of those Titan "revisions" we now know to be a lie, the war of the Ancient books AND Chronicles say the Night Elves were concretely *not* living there, by Queen Azshara's orders. While the pre-sundering map, a.k.a. at the time of the sundering, clarifies Hyjal as Dark Troll territory.

Oh you just made it all up didn’t you?

And here are the pre sundering maps of relevance one before night elfs existed and one after.

Before

After.

So ya while Azshara didn’t let the night elfs expan into hyjal it self it was still apart of there empire and elfs would commune with the wild gods there.

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Well, if it was apart from the Night Elf empire then it wouldn't be much of an issue, would it? Besides, "some". It would be reasonable for Dark Trolls to still live there when there's only intermittent Night Elf presence.

It wouldn’t be an issue I’m just wondering where any of the lore came from As I don’t remember ever hearing of it.

As far as some dark trolls living there it would be possible but I believe it says in chronicles they all migrated away from the area and then became night elfs though I don’t feel like checking at the moment so take that with a Grain of salt.

[babalou1]

The Dragons never "gave" them a seed for a new world tree. They planted Teldrassil from a cutting of Nordrassil. A world Tree has to feed upon the leylines of Azeroth itself; so its analogous to a wound, which is the very reason they're so afraid of Old God infection of the world trees. And before that, Nordrassil was created to plug up the Second Well to stop the War of the Ancients from repeating itself, and Illidan was thrown into a forever prison for it.

The topic was about whether or not Nordrassil was significant to the Night Elves or the Dragonflight: When it's irrevocably tied to both, a holy thing to the night elves, and to the Dragons who created it, an emergency solution to another Night Elf mistake.

Nordrassil: The tree was grown from a single acorn of the recently lost Mother Tree, G'Hanir, by the great dragon Alexstrasza in the waters of the newly reborn Well of Eternity on the sacred Mount Hyjal. Hence, The dragons gave them the seed and then further blessed the Tree granting the elves strength and vitality, immortality and access to the dream.

Teldrassil: The Circle of the Ancients and the wise druids led by Fandral combined their powers to grow an immense tree in the Veiled Sea. They created the tree in the middle of the ocean, years AFTER the destruction of Nordrassil

There is nothing about them using Nordrassil to create Teldrassil.

Use actual lore instead of headcanon shit. Creating a world tree is not analogous to a wound in any way, shape, or form. A wound is what the original well was and what Sargeras wound caused. That was it.

[Ersula]

Oh you just made it all up didn’t you?

And here are the pre sundering maps of relevance one before night elfs existed and one after.

Before

After.

So ya while Azshara didn’t let the night elfs expan into hyjal it self it was still apart of there empire and elfs would commune with the wild gods there.

If you're interpretation were true, the Darkspear would not exist today. Clearly while the Elves considered it part of the empire, as any Dark Troll lore establishes, and their appearance in Warcraft 3 corroborates, Dark Trolls lived there, before and after, the Sundering. Nymrohd already explained that.

Nordrassil: The tree was grown from a single acorn of the recently lost Mother Tree, G'Hanir, by the great dragon Alexstrasza in the waters of the newly reborn Well of Eternity on the sacred Mount Hyjal. Hence, The dragons gave them the seed and then further blessed the Tree granting the elves strength and vitality, immortality and access to the dream.

They used a cutting of Nordrassil. The same way all the other world trees were made. But Teldrassil is the exception because the dragons were pissed off the elves did it without their consent. No druid is powerful enough to create a tree from nothing. The Dragons never gave them a seed and only blessed Teldrassil long after it was already grown, initially condemning Teldrassil's existence.

[huth]

As far as some dark trolls living there it would be possible but I believe it says in chronicles they all migrated away from the area and then became night elfs though I don’t feel like checking at the moment so take that with a Grain of salt.

Given that there is still a living Dark Troll in Zandalar, that is clearly not what happened. They are dying out now, but that's still well over 10,000 years later than you assume.

[Ersula]

Given that there is still a living Dark Troll in Zandalar, that is clearly not what happened. They are dying out now, but that's still well over 10,000 years later than you assume.

Its ambiguous which trolls on Zuldazar are Sand Trolls, Dark Trolls or "Dinosaur Trolls". But yes. Darkspear, and all "Island Trolls" are the remnants of Troll tribes displaced by other races. Including most emphatically, Dark Trolls.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

If you're interpretation were true, the Darkspear would not exist today. Clearly while the Elves considered it part of the empire, as any Dark Troll lore establishes, and their appearance in Warcraft 3 corroborates, Dark Trolls lived there, before and after, the Sundering. Nymrohd already explained that.

What? The dark spears are ex Gurubashi and you can see Zul gurub still there in the night elf empire picture.

Did you just make up that the dark spears were dark trolls because they both used the word dark?

[Ersula]

What? The dark spears are ex Gurubashi and you can see Zul gurub still there in the night elf empire picture.

Did you just make up that the dark spears were dark trolls because they both used the word dark?

Genetics? The Darkspear tribe includes many skin colors not present in Jungle Trolls. As described by Vol'jin the Darkspear welcome all trolls with nowhere else to go. That is a story of cultural displacement.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Given that there is still a living Dark Troll in Zandalar, that is clearly not what happened. They are dying out now, but that's still well over 10,000 years later than you assume.

Again id have to go check the book but you could have still trolls in Zandalar and have had them all leave hyjal it would just mean they split up at some point or that dark trolls from some where other then hyjal went to Zandalar as they had multiple spots on the map.

Of course I could also just be miss remembering and some stayed in Hyjal some went to the well and some new to Zandalar, though I still don’t believe there is any mention of them having any issues with night elfs like Ersula has said.

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Genetics? The Darkspear tribe includes many skin colors not present in Jungle Trolls. As described by Vol'jin the Darkspear welcome all trolls with nowhere else to go. That is a story of cultural displacement.

So ya you made it up as blizzard doesn’t delve into the Genetics of skin tones in wow nor have they ever mentioned the elfs displaying dark trolls.

[huth]

Again id have to go check the book but you could have still trolls in Zandalar and have had them all leave hyjal it would just mean they split up at some point or that dark trolls from some where other then hyjal went to Zandalar as they had multiple spots on the map.

The problem with that is the time since they supposedly left. There would have had to be a substantial population of Dark Trolls for most of it still.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The problem with that is the time since they supposedly left. There would have had to be a substantial population of Dark Trolls for most of it still.

Well ya but that population doesn’t have to have any thing to do with night elfs or hyjal they would have been living Among the Zandalari in the capital, in other zones in Zanadar, or on random islands for all we know.

[Ersula]

Again id have to go check the book but you could have still trolls in Zandalar and have had them all leave hyjal it would just mean they split up at some point or that dark trolls from some where other then hyjal went to Zandalar as they had multiple spots on the map.

Of course I could also just be miss remembering and some stayed in Hyjal some went to the well and some new to Zandalar, though I still don’t believe there is any mention of them having any issues with night elfs like Ersula has said.

You're right that we have to infer some of this information. But there's three possible interpretations of what you're saying.

1.) The Dark Trolls are a small demographic still living in peaceful unity with the Night Elves today
2.) The remnant of the Dark Trolls transformed into Night Elves at some point assuming the transforming qualities of the Well of Eternity are still present in Nordrassil.
3.) The growth of the Night Elf empire forced the Dark Trolls to find a new place to live, much like the Native Americans.

Possibility 1 isn't true as any troll tribes still in Kalimdor are hostile to Night Elves. Possibility 2 might be true but its still fucked up; a slow, non-violent destruction of your culture & species is still displacement. Maybe we're not supposed to assume a dominant civilization moving into a new land, removing the culture that existed there originally & then rewriting history to portray themselves positively but in the real world, that's the truth every single time. Any traits & backstories we give fictional races is informed by real world races & history. And here we have a clear pattern of Night Elves portraying themselves positively even when they've caused untoward destruction.

Also, this is all tangential to my point: The point was just about the Night Elves treating Nordrassil as a holy thing & their racial supremacist attitude because of their reverence for it, when in actuality it was just a thing the Dragons gave them to repair a hole in the planet they made. What happened to the Dark Trolls isn't (completely) relevant to that.

[babalou1]

They used a cutting of Nordrassil. The same way all the other world trees were made. But Teldrassil is the exception because the dragons were pissed off the elves did it without their consent. No druid is powerful enough to create a tree from nothing. The Dragons never gave them a seed and only blessed Teldrassil long after it was already grown, initially condemning Teldrassil's existence.

The Circle of the Ancients and the wise druids led by Fandral combined their powers to grow an immense tree in the Veiled Sea. Straight from lore. Where is your bullshit coming from? Got a source for using a cutting of Nordrassil?

And it explicitly states that Nordrassil was grown from a SINGLE ACORN of the recently lost Mother Tree by Alexstrasza. So CLEARLY the dragons gave them a seed.

[hipolnalrt]

No chance wow does a boat/sea exploration expansion now. FF14 beat 'em to it.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

You're right that we have to infer some of this information. But there's three possible interpretations of what you're saying.

1.) The Dark Trolls are a small demographic still living in peaceful unity with the Night Elves today
2.) The remnant of the Dark Trolls transformed into Night Elves at some point assuming the transforming qualities of the Well of Eternity are still present in Nordrassil.
3.) The growth of the Night Elf empire forced the Dark Trolls to find a new place to live, much like the Native Americans.

There’s more then 3 possibles.

4 they all left hyjal and turned into night elfs or relocated.

5 they were wiped by the satyrs post WOA.

6 they were wiped out by the undead/legion in WC3

7 they were wiped out by the twilight hammer and fire elementals in Cata.

As well as the shatter spear up to cata showing that they could still be living there in peace right now.

Of course like none of theses are supported in any way as we know incredibly little about the dark trolls but there all just as likely as the dragons or night elfs doing any thing to them.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

No chance wow does a boat/sea exploration expansion now. FF14 beat 'em to it.

Thats not a reason WoW won't do it.

[Worldshaper]

No chance wow does a boat/sea exploration expansion now. FF14 beat 'em to it.

I went and watched the announcement trailer because of your comment. Man, what do people see in this game? I've never seen a more generic and uninteresting trailer in my life.

Random attractive dude sails a boat to a large island. Some temple. A rabbit person eating. Awful rock/pop music in the background. Literally not a single shot of any of the things that typically make the theme of "exploring a strange new world at sea" interesting. No underwater stuff, no mer-people, no exploring the jungle, no immersive music. It's the radio pop version of MMOs.

Thank you Metzen for WoW.

[Makabreska]

No chance wow does a boat/sea exploration expansion now. FF14 beat 'em to it.

Damn, that means no one ever can make such expansion, eh?

[Ersula]

And it explicitly states that Nordrassil was grown from a SINGLE ACORN of the recently lost Mother Tree by Alexstrasza. So CLEARLY the dragons gave them a seed.

Shaladrassil & Vordrassil were created from cuttings of Nordrassil. Why would the Dragons give them a seed to plant a world tree they explicitly did not want them to create? You're ignoring the whole part where the Dragons condemned the creation of Teldrassil until long after it was grown.

4 they all left hyjal and turned into night elfs or relocated.

5 they were wiped by the satyrs post WOA.

6 they were wiped out by the undead/legion in WC3

7 they were wiped out by the twilight hammer and fire elementals in Cata.

Dude, those are all varieties of "displacement."

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Dude, those are all varieties of "displacement."

Leaving on your own volition isn’t being displaced nor is being wiped out.

But even if they were all of them are far from being blamed on the night elfs/dragons.

[Woggmer]

No chance wow does a boat/sea exploration expansion now. FF14 beat 'em to it.

That's not gonna stop them... if anything it's only going to encourage them to try it.

It isn't the first time that they allowed players to actually sail on a boat, they did it back in Cata when Thousand Needle was flooded over. So in order to get around the water, they gave players a literal boat to travel around the zone.