The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Ameonna]

The stupidity of the idea of one Legion across the multiverse is only comparable to Danuser's explanation of what happens to the different versions of one character when they end up in the Shadowlands.

Hopefully they take the chance to start retconning stuff than does not make any sense.

But the thing is, and i think people dont realize it, is that both of these bad idease would not need to exist or be explained if the multiverse/AU/Alternate timeline simply did not exist in warcraft universe.

This bs was mainly made in Cata with the Twilight of the Aspects novel and 4.3 with End Time dungeon and WoD fully expanded it to its full "glory"

But everytime they have to bring it up, it is because ppl ask "but how it works with the multiverse" if there was no multiverse this would not even have to be asked ><

[Darkarath]

But the thing is, and i think people dont realize it, is that both of these bad idease would not need to exist or be explained if the multiverse/AU/Alternate timeline simply did not exist in warcraft universe.

This bs was mainly made in Cata with the Twilight of the Aspects novel and 4.3 with End Time dungeon and WoD fully expanded it to its full "glory"

But everytime they have to bring it up, it is because ppl ask "but how it works with the multiverse" if there was no multiverse this would not even have to be asked ><

The multiverse by itself does not have to be bad. It could even be potentially cool. The problem is when you start mixing concepts in stupid and completely unnecessary ways.

If there was one Legion across the multiverse they would be unstoppable. Period. It would not be possible to argue against their completely dominance over the multiverse. They would corrupt and create millions of Kil'Jaedens and Archimondes, entire civilizations repeteadly, hold uncountable artifacts of untold power... You see how it goes.

The Shadowlands has the same problem. It is so fucking idiotic that there is just one across the multiverse. Its base concept is just completely dull. I do not even want to talk about how SL basically killed WoW in so many ways and for so many players.

But Blizzard can use the multiverse in a simple and amazing way IMO. Yrel's Army of Light.

From WoD to BfA, I believe that 2-3 years passed in Azeroth. Yet in WoD's Draenor they were like... 20-30? So when DF is done another 50-80 years would have passed in Draenor. In that time Yrel might have conquered several planets. Even an alternate Azeroth. The potential of her Army is only comparable to the Burning Legion. In fact it is exactly that, call it the Light's Crusade or however you want. Yrel has the potential to become a new Kil'jaeden, with the Naaru as her guide instead of Sargeras.

[Khaza-R]

I'd take what Bellular is promoting with a grain of salt. We really don't need Archimonde for the 4th time in the story.

My hopes are they pick up the abandoned storyline of WoD. Have MU Yrel who was speculated to be the daughter of Archimonde and make her the new leader of the Legion.

That would also be way more of reason to tie-in AU Yrel than she just randomly decides to invade our timeline for reasons.

[Ameonna]

I'd take what Bellular is promoting with a grain of salt. We really don't need Archimonde for the 4th time in the story.

My hopes are they pick up the abandoned storyline of WoD. Have MU Yrel who was speculated to be the daughter of Archimonde and make her the new leader of the Legion.

That would also be way more of reason to tie-in AU Yrel than she just randomly decides to invade our timeline for reasons.

I completly agree, because i find so dumb how people are wanting an Archimonde when you have a plenty of cool still alive characters like Velysra, like Velhari, like Nuri (the wife of Velen) Sateil, Thal'kiel or even Jaraxxus if they want to joke around...just to mention some that are actually interesting and not dead.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I completly agree, because i find so dumb how people are wanting an Archimonde when you have a plenty of cool still alive characters like Velysra, like Velhari, like Nuri (the wife of Velen) Sateil, Thal'kiel or even Jaraxxus if they want to joke around...just to mention some that are actually interesting and not dead.

Most of those characters don't have the "star power" that Archimonde does. Assuming Blizz is even going along with Archi alive.

[Ersula]

They specifically precised that Nathrezim could return but not other demons so people were not sure about others, and most said Mannoroth and Archimonde considering their death in war3 were impactful for the story (the death of Mannoroth was needed to free the orcs from the blood pact which is now a quesiton since he is not truly dead so how could his defeat break the paéct if he is not dead?)

And all of that turned out to be a lie since Shadowlands revealed all the Dreadlords (a.k.a. Nathrezim) were never demons and are all alive & well.

If anything, its more likely that Xal is the harbringer, who used to be an OG herself, and since her own body was destroyed, she is now trying to corrupt the world soul of Azeroth this way.

Nowhere do they say what Xalatath's goal is. And I don't think the power level of Titans actually matter since they're almost impossible to kill but very easy to corrupt & mind control. If Iridikron is counting on Xal to fight the Titans for him he's going to be very disapointed as the Priest questlines make it clear after being put into the dagger & then into a mortal body, she's less than 1% of her original power.

Aggramar's physical body was already destroyed by Sargeras, we're fighting his tortured soul.

I don't think you can confidently say that's how Titan's work. When in the same raid we have unkilled Eonar floating around as a disembodied spirit. Are you saying killing his soul turns him back alive again in the Argus fight? Then you're saying half the titans have physical bodies & half of them are disembodied spirits when they imprison Sargeras & its impossible to distinguish the difference by looking at them.

Well its not what dungeon journal says about Socrethar, and we already killed him in TBC and if he died in tbc (thus reforming in the nether) how can be a ghost in alternate draenor? (after we killed him in shatrath) and not be in the nether?

Are you Familiar with Uther and all the ghosts of him on Azeroth? My theory is that a ghost is someone in the shadowlands dreaming but anyway there's no canon explanation for ghosts. Its clear a demon's ghost showing up on Argus is indicative of nothing.

[Ameonna]

The multiverse by itself does not have to be bad. It could even be potentially cool. The problem is when you start mixing concepts in stupid and completely unnecessary ways.

If there was one Legion across the multiverse they would be unstoppable. Period. It would not be possible to argue against their completely dominance over the multiverse. They would corrupt and create millions of Kil'Jaedens and Archimondes, entire civilizations repeteadly, hold uncountable artifacts of untold power... You see how it goes.

The Shadowlands has the same problem. It is so fucking idiotic that there is just one across the multiverse. Its base concept is just completely dull. I do not even want to talk about how SL basically killed WoW in so many ways and for so many players.

But Blizzard can use the multiverse in a simple and amazing way IMO. Yrel's Army of Light.

From WoD to BfA, I believe that 2-3 years passed in Azeroth. Yet in WoD's Draenor they were like... 20-30? So when DF is done another 50-80 years would have passed in Draenor. In that time Yrel might have conquered several planets. Even an alternate Azeroth. The potential of her Army is only comparable to the Burning Legion. In fact it is exactly that, call it the Light's Crusade or however you want. Yrel has the potential to become a new Kil'jaeden, with the Naaru as her guide instead of Sargeras.

I understand your point, but to me Blizzard is just unable to manage this, and if you look at for example Diablo lore, there is no need for multiverse to make something cool and interesting, even the archangel Itherael is so much more intreresting than Nozdormu...

Most of those characters don't have the "star power" that Archimonde does. Assuming Blizz is even going along with Archi alive.

They should have thought of it before killing him twice...and they can just make up new characters like for example Sabelian who was of no fame before DF

And all of that turned out to be a lie since Shadowlands revealed all the Dreadlords (a.k.a. Nathrezim) were never demons and are all alive & well.

Back in Cata it was not a "lie" because the whole thing about Nathrezim being from Shadowlands was clearly not a thing yet in the devs mind. Its important to keep track of the context and when it was mentioned to see how it evolved.

Are you Familiar with Uther and all the ghosts of him on Azeroth? My theory is that a ghost is someone in the shadowlands dreaming but anyway there's no canon explanation for ghosts. Its clear a demon's ghost showing up on Argus is indicative of nothing.

Yeah but Uther is a mortal and his soul got some mumbo jumbo split with Frostmourn and i think the fact it is over Azeroth was explained by it being echoes of himself rather than actually him. And the ghosts on Argus as i recall were not demons but if you talk about the ones on Eredath they are again echoes of the past and ghosts from eredar not being demons yet.

[huth]

Well if they are going to imply Archimonde is alive, utilize him well when the time comes(Or rather don't kill him off quickly).

Has he ever actually done anything other than show up and then get killed shortly after?

If there was one Legion across the multiverse they would be unstoppable. Period. It would not be possible to argue against their completely dominance over the multiverse. They would corrupt and create millions of Kil'Jaedens and Archimondes, entire civilizations repeteadly, hold uncountable artifacts of untold power... You see how it goes.

And so would everybody else. Relative powerlevels would not shift significantly. Not to mention that it would render Sargeras goals even more unachievable than they already are.

[Hitei]

Has he ever actually done anything other than show up and then get killed shortly after?

Destroyed Dal.

[Khaza-R]

Destroyed Dal.

Even that was greatly diminished in WoW lore. It took only 6 years to basically rebuild the city.

[Darkarath]

I understand your point, but to me Blizzard is just unable to manage this, and if you look at for example Diablo lore, there is no need for multiverse to make something cool and interesting, even the archangel Itherael is so much more intreresting than Nozdormu...

Oh, yes. I completely agree with you. The moment Blizzard introduced WoD I knew that WoW's lore was set on its path to destruction.

I would say that the multiverse theme always bring problems. It could be cool if you manage it in a very simple way, but even in that situation thousands of questions will arise. Definitively, it has not brought anything positive to WoW's lore.

And so would everybody else. Relative powerlevels would not shift significantly. Not to mention that it would render Sargeras goals even more unachievable than they already are.

Not really. Only the Legion is unique across the multiverse. At least that is the canon for now if I am not mistaken. In such a way they can always find new planets to corrupt. In our universe they have destroyed thousands of planets and corrupted many races. Just rinse and repeat in another universe. Or why not, try a different approach with a very powerful civilization that they were unable to corrupt the first time. They would always win in the grand scheme of things.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

The only problem is One legion across all universes. Thats about it. Take that away and the multiverse stuff/alternate timelines is relatively harmles and its how you use it and people should stop being dramatic about WoD.


Edit: If one wanted to do more multiversal travel in a setting like Warcraft you'd have to have a check on multiversal travel in world. Make it very difficult to even do so

[Woggmer]

Look, I honestly don't want Archimonde or Kil'jaeden to make a 3rd comeback. There are other Eredar Lords to use to instead of them, like Lord Jaraxxus (I get it, he's a meme, but he was a raid boss.)

He did show up in a cameo in Legion when Gul'dan summons a bunch of demons, but he was never involved in Legion, his spirit in Eredath what he used to be before he joined the Legion.

[Kiivar86]

Kil'jaeden I wouldn't mind seeing again (though I think his defeat in Legion was a good closure point), but Archimonde is so incredibly one note and boring I don't want him back at all (granted a lot of demons are one-note).

Bring more interesting eredar to the fore, please.

[Ersula]

Yeah but Uther is a mortal and his soul got some mumbo jumbo split with Frostmourn and i think the fact it is over Azeroth was explained by it being echoes of himself rather than actually him. And the ghosts on Argus as i recall were not demons but if you talk about the ones on Eredath they are again echoes of the past and ghosts from eredar not being demons yet.

So why were you bringing up the ghosts in the first place? Why are you trying to claim "only the Nathrazim" have the "gift of Sargeras" when we now know they never did? The Devs have been asked these questions & given answers but you're trying to say the opposite. You're not even trying to understand the lore at this point. You say whatever lore you don't like doesn't count.

Now it is unknown if they retconned his death, but I imagine he's likely gone gone until stated otherwise.

New info on the PTR points to the Legion having a new leader. Many people are suspecting its Archimonde and that's the only reason we're having this discussion. Personally I would have just let demonkind be free. If the Eredar are any indication, demons were mostly tricked & forced into becoming demons. Wouldn't you just be happy to be free now that Sargeras is imprisoned?

[Lahis]

Even that was greatly diminished in WoW lore. It took only 6 years to basically rebuild the city.

It is a city of mages, run by mages. 6 years to rebuild is actually kinda long for that context.

[Worldshaper]

This discussion on obscure cosmic lore and "what if"-scenarios in the future just kills my excitement and makes me want to pick up knitting instead.

Here's what Blizzard should do:

1. Finish the Void story arc in 11.0.
2. Bring us into the new era of Warcraft with the revamp and/or Avaloren super continent.
3. You know that warehouse from Indiana Jones where they store ancient and forbidden artifacts, locked away in sealed crates? Put cosmic lore in one of those.
4. Keep letting the people of Azeroth have access to such powers, but don't use them to push the story and don't bring us to any realms connected to them in the future.
5. Make billions from the broad masses of people who play Warcraft because they enjoy simple fantasy settings, and wave goodbye to the 1% of players who truly love all that "First Ones" and "Zereth" nonsense.

[Alanar]

Look, I honestly don't want Archimonde or Kil'jaeden to make a 3rd comeback. There are other Eredar Lords to use to instead of them, like Lord Jaraxxus (I get it, he's a meme, but he was a raid boss.)

He did show up in a cameo in Legion when Gul'dan summons a bunch of demons, but he was never involved in Legion, his spirit in Eredath what he used to be before he joined the Legion.

I agree, they served their purpose and their story is done.

I am honestly just done with them myself as that part of the Legion, we are closing the circel by having the red skinned Eredar becoming playable as well. I wouldnt be interested in a few leftover Eredar bosses turned into anna 2023 powerlevels, they are just not interesting. The Legion had overarching villains in the backround for years, the unknown and us wanting for them to show up, was what made them interesting.

The ones who gul dan summons are mostly the dreadlords and we havent seen all of them still, with their master still in the backround I would say they are interesting enough to show up again. Their story isnt over yet.

[Nymrohd]

I think if Legion elements show up again, it should not be about Eredar. It should be either natural demons, including varieties we may never have seen (cause Sargeras did not want to keep them around) that are acting on the will of Disorder (I'd rather have Disorder have no Pantheon but rather be a self aware force like the Abyss is implied to be in D&D) or nathrezim serving Denathrius. The great thing with Denathrius (beyond him being a tried villain the players like) is that he comes with a place we want to visit; Ruins of Nathreza could easily be a final patch zone and imo it should look similar to Revendreth so they already have the themes for it.
Heck if the Eredar do come back I'd rather have them as allies. And I want to find out what happened to Nuuri. My headcanon before we visited Argus was that she took her husband's place in the triumvirate and while Archimonde was the muscle and KJ was the intelligence network, she'd be in charge of logistics and actually keeping the Legion running (and yes, that would mean she had her own son tortured into Rakeesh). Anyway I think that KJ would not have had Velen's wife just killed.

[Super Dickmann]

I think if Legion elements show up again, it should not be about Eredar. It should be either natural demons, including varieties we may never have seen (cause Sargeras did not want to keep them around) that are acting on the will of Disorder (I'd rather have Disorder have no Pantheon but rather be a self aware force like the Abyss is implied to be in D&D) or nathrezim serving Denathrius. The great thing with Denathrius (beyond him being a tried villain the players like) is that he comes with a place we want to visit; Ruins of Nathreza could easily be a final patch zone and imo it should look similar to Revendreth so they already have the themes for it.
Heck if the Eredar do come back I'd rather have them as allies. And I want to find out what happened to Nuuri. My headcanon before we visited Argus was that she took her husband's place in the triumvirate and while Archimonde was the muscle and KJ was the intelligence network, she'd be in charge of logistics and actually keeping the Legion running (and yes, that would mean she had her own son tortured into Rakeesh). Anyway I think that KJ would not have had Velen's wife just killed.

Re: Disorder I think the best thing to do with the Legion is to not do it. I.e, have no overall leader or inheritor, though maybe Denathrius could lead the largest such faction, merging the Revendreth aesthetic elements to go for the corrupted opulence we never got in regards to Argus with KJ and Archimonde. Instead, fitting with the whole Chaos and Disorder bit, have them all be competing destructive warbands led by individually powerful demon lords. It fits with their thematic role, their lore pre-Sargeras and allows you to slot demons into just about any story in different capacities as needed.

Archimonde should stay dead. Re: the eredar, they were the Legion ruling class. Even reigning over one of the shithole planets left over from the Legion's reign is still more than your enterprising warlock could do anywhere else. But if you did want to make some of them as allies, the natural lead-in would be to have them compete with the Nathrezim during an eventual Denathrius takeover.