The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Nymrohd]

There's no way Blizzard can do a world revamp without sacrificing other gameplay elements in return.

So it can work if they have all the elements ready. The talent system is here, expanding dragonriding to other mounts is a feature enough, the old world if revamped should be getting used for the max-level content arc as well (or at least parts of it). The other systems work reasonably well. If they add nothing but what we have and just focus on building content, that's what people want. Content sells the game, not systems.

[Joszef Kiprich]

Yeah, I don't see a world revamp happening without a faction conflict. And two out of three faction conflict driven expansions were not really well received. I think Blizzard will stay away from that. Or maybe if the factions fall apart.

[Dracullus]

There's no way Blizzard can do a world revamp without sacrificing other gameplay elements in return.

I don't get why people keep thinking only way to do revamp is Cata revamp (recreating leveling experience from lvl 1). It's not even needed now, Cata revamp was done cause Classic leveling was outdated (they learned a lot during TBC and Wrath), problem with outdated leveling content went away with 9.0 changes.

[Varodoc]

Yes, there has been potential occasions for a world revamp before, but I think that Blizzard was not prepared for something like that, plus they did not have the evergreen mindset that now they claim to have. Also, there has never been more people working at WoW than now.

You mention Blood Elf assets, you can apply that to almost every race, playable or not, of WoW. For years they have been updating assets, some of them have to be used in-game yet, which also could be a valid point towards a world revamp.

Also, I do not see a Warfront or anything similar happening at least for some expansions, as Alliance and Horde are kind of working together now, as we can see in the Dragon Isles, plus Blizzard is clearly moving away from faction conflict, for the time being.

Finally, its true that Blizzard has stated that they are not interested in doing another world revamp, but how many times they have said something and end up doing the opposite? A few.

Faction war is a good plot device to have a world revamp. Even in the trailer of Cataclysm, they highlighted the part about the Alliance and Horde fighting in many battlefields for control of the world's diminished resources. Faction war allows Blizzard creativity to turn several areas or even entire zones into battlefields, which moves the plot forward with conflict. Think of how many zones in Cataclysm were modified by the new faction war and their storylines are centred around the renewed conflict between Alliance and Horde (Ashenvale, Southern Barrens, Stonetalon, Silverpine, Darkshore, Hillsbrad, Western Plaguelands off the top of my head).

On top of this, think of all the changes throughout the old world that were documented in the BfA War Table missions. Think of all the troop movements and skirmishes taking place in Gilneas, Silverpine, Hillsbrad, and so on. All this stuff could have actually happened on-screen and would have constituted the new levelling experience in old world.

So Yes, it would have made perfect sense to have world revamp in BfA, the set-up was identical to Cataclysm:

- You have a global cataclysmic event that caused ripple effects across the entire planet (Deathwing's Cataclysm caused the land to burn and suffer, Sargeras' Sword caused explosive volatile Azerite to erupt everywhere);

- You have a renewed faction war as a direct result of the aforementioned cataclysmic event (Faction war in Cataclysm started for control over the world's diminished resources, faction war in BfA started for control of the precious new Azerite resources).

You cannot deny that BfA had the perfect set-up for world revamp. After world revamp didn't happen in BfA, I have lost hope for world revamp, and I am satisfied with small-scale, localized revamps in key areas for the ongoing story (like Arathi/Darkshore/Tirisfal for the Fourth War story, Vale of Eternal Blossoms/Uldum for the N'Zoth Resurgence story).

[Nyel]

There's no way Blizzard can do a world revamp without sacrificing other gameplay elements in return.

There's no way Blizzard is doing a world revamp simply because the time and effort spent isn't anywhere close to worth the financial outcome.

[Darkarath]

Faction war is a good plot device to have a world revamp. Even in the trailer of Cataclysm, they highlighted the part about the Alliance and Horde fighting in many battlefields for control of the world's diminished resources. Faction war allows Blizzard creativity to turn several areas or even entire zones into battlefields, which moves the plot forward with conflict. Think of how many zones in Cataclysm were modified by the new faction war and their storylines are centred around the renewed conflict between Alliance and Horde (Ashenvale, Southern Barrens, Stonetalon, Silverpine, Darkshore, Hillsbrad, Western Plaguelands off the top of my head).

On top of this, think of all the changes throughout the old world that were documented in the BfA War Table missions. Think of all the troop movements and skirmishes taking place in Gilneas, Silverpine, Hillsbrad, and so on. All this stuff could have actually happened on-screen and would have constituted the new levelling experience in old world.

So Yes, it would have made perfect sense to have world revamp in BfA, the set-up was identical to Cataclysm:

- You have a global cataclysmic event that caused ripple effects across the entire planet (Deathwing's Cataclysm caused the land to burn and suffer, Sargeras' Sword caused explosive volatile Azerite to erupt everywhere);

- You have a renewed faction war as a direct result of the aforementioned cataclysmic event (Faction war in Cataclysm started for control over the world's diminished resources, faction war in BfA started for control of the precious new Azerite resources).

You cannot deny that BfA had the perfect set-up for world revamp. After world revamp didn't happen in BfA, I have lost hope for world revamp, and I am satisfied with small-scale, localized revamps in key areas for the ongoing story (like Arathi/Darkshore/Tirisfal for the Fourth War story, Vale of Eternal Blossoms/Uldum for the N'Zoth Resurgence story).

Yes, I agree, BfA was a really good opportunity for the revamp. But again, I doubt that they had the resources and the proper mindset to do it properly. Now things have changed.

What is more important, is that a world revamp does not need to include Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms. Not even an entire continent.

There is no way that they are "destroying" current WoW's world for a revamp, like they did in Cataclysm. The current world will be accessible through CoT or something similar. A world revamp these days, as I stated before, will probably be made from scratch, like WoD's Draenor was. For example, 11.0 could include Northern Eastern Kingdoms (all the Blood Elves zones, all Lordaeron, Gilneas, Arathi...). It will work just as a new expansion continent, but they could always build more on that continent and eventually visit Kalimdor and other zones.

This kind of approach would work better if DF ends with a Cataclysm like event, which is something that definitively might happen. But even without such an event, would be perfectly fine.

I honestly do not see them making a specific zone revamp from time to time. IMO that kind of approach does not work. It mess with the timelines of the zones, its confusing for players having to talk to a Bronze Dragonflight representative to change the timeline. Its just not a sustainable system and a bit messy IMO.

Regarding a faction conflict, it is not necessary at all for a revamp. They are getting away from faction conflict. Actually a revamp seeing how relations between Horde and Alliance are improving and seeing how they work together could be very interesting, with of course the inevitable tensions and conflicts that will arise.

[Pheraz]

I think if they would make a world revamp they would make it with AI eventually.

[Varodoc]

Yes, I agree, BfA was a really good opportunity for the revamp. But again, I doubt that they had the resources and the proper mindset to do it properly. Now things have changed.

What is more important, is that a world revamp does not need to include Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms. Not even an entire continent.

There is no way that they are "destroying" current WoW's world for a revamp, like they did in Cataclysm. The current world will be accessible through CoT or something similar. A world revamp these days, as I stated before, will probably be made from scratch, like WoD's Draenor was. For example, 11.0 could include Northern Eastern Kingdoms (all the Blood Elves zones, all Lordaeron, Gilneas, Arathi...). It will work just as a new expansion continent, but they could always build more on that continent and eventually visit Kalimdor and other zones.

This kind of approach would work better if DF ends with a Cataclysm like event, which is something that definitively might happen. But even without such an event, would be perfectly fine.

I honestly do not see them making a specific zone revamp from time to time. IMO that kind of approach does not work. It mess with the timelines of the zones, its confusing for players having to talk to a Bronze Dragonflight representative to change the timeline. Its just not a sustainable system and a bit messy IMO.

Regarding a faction conflict, it is not necessary at all for a revamp. They are getting away from faction conflict. Actually a revamp seeing how relations between Horde and Alliance are improving and seeing how they work together could be very interesting, with of course the inevitable tensions and conflicts that will arise.

Dragonflight is the expansion where Azeroth is healing and the factions are cooperating and friendly to one another. 11.0 will not share this theme. Dragonflight is the expansion where Azeroth is beginning to heal and factions are on good terms, this expansion concept has already been done.

It's way more likely that 11.0 will be Light vs. Void showdown.

The Light and Void conflict has been properly established since TBC, where the Naaru, Void Lords, Ethereals, and spaceships were introduced. It makes sense that 11.0 will revolve around this massive conflict, the ultimate conflict of the franchise, which has been built up since the first expansion.

We already have the cast of this expansion, who have been waiting for years to be in the spotlight:

Alleria Windrunner
Magister Umbric
Locus-Walker
Turalyon
Calia Menethil
Lothraxion
Yrel
Exarch Hellscream
Xe'ra
Geya'rah

This is the cast of 11.0. It's time to put these characters in the spotlight for a proper expansion about the Light and Void.

A conflict that doesn't have to take place OUTSIDE of Azeroth, by the way. This doesn't have to be another FlopLands expansion. We already have enough material to work with on Azeroth itself. Scarlet Crusade, Lightforged, and Ren'dorei are all forces on Azeroth, and the Lightbound could simply invade Azeroth through the Dark Portal or (more likely) the Sunwell.

Light and Void expansion based on Azeroth (with a patch on K'aresh) is the most likely expansion.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Yeah, I don't see a world revamp happening without a faction conflict. And two out of three faction conflict driven expansions were not really well received. I think Blizzard will stay away from that. Or maybe if the factions fall apart.

No, the factions need to stay and the faction war really wasn't the problem of the expansion(s).

[Darkarath]

Dragonflight is the expansion where Azeroth is healing and the factions are cooperating and friendly to one another. 11.0 will not share this theme. Dragonflight is the expansion where Azeroth is beginning to heal and factions are on good terms, this expansion concept has already been done.

It's way more likely that 11.0 will be Light vs. Void showdown.

The Light and Void conflict has been properly established since TBC, where the Naaru, Void Lords, Ethereals, and spaceships were introduced. It makes sense that 11.0 will revolve around this massive conflict, the ultimate conflict of the franchise, which has been built up since the first expansion.

We already have the cast of this expansion, who have been waiting for years to be in the spotlight:

Alleria Windrunner
Magister Umbric
Locus-Walker
Turalyon
Calia Menethil
Lothraxion
Yrel
Exarch Hellscream
Xe'ra
Geya'rah

This is the cast of 11.0. It's time to put these characters in the spotlight for a proper expansion about the Light and Void.

A conflict that doesn't have to take place OUTSIDE of Azeroth, by the way. This doesn't have to be another FlopLands expansion. We already have enough material to work with on Azeroth itself. Scarlet Crusade, Lightforged, and Ren'dorei are all forces on Azeroth, and the Lightbound could simply invade Azeroth through the Dark Portal or (more likely) the Sunwell.

Light and Void expansion based on Azeroth (with a patch on K'aresh) is the most likely expansion.

Light vs Void is happening at some point and it is a conflict that we will see on Azeroth. I feel that after SL most expansions will happen on Azeroth, with some patches in other realms / planes / planets, similar to Argus.

Depending on how big the revamp would be, I think that we will see not only Light and Void, but all cosmic forces in our planet, as clearly all of them have an interest in Azeroth, which is something unique that everyone wants to take the advantage of.

Honestly Light vs Void could fit perfectly in any kind of revamp.

[Varodoc]

Light vs Void is happening at some point and it is a conflict that we will see on Azeroth. I feel that after SL most expansions will happen on Azeroth, with some patches in other realms / planes / planets, similar to Argus.

Depending on how big the revamp would be, I think that we will see not only Light and Void, but all cosmic forces in our planet, as clearly all of them have an interest in Azeroth, which is something unique that everyone wants to take the advantage of.

Honestly Light vs Void could fit perfectly in any kind of revamp.

Legion was the perfect model. The Cosmic conflict of the Burning Crusades played out in the Broken Isles, but several quests took you outside Azeroth, to the Twisting Nether and various Legion prison worlds, and 7.3 took place on Argus.

Before Shadowlands was announced, many people, even on this very forum, believed that a Death expansion would take place in a revamped Northrend and the actual Shadowlands would only be visited for one patch, like Argus (and, before Shadowlands, the afterlife was always depicted as mostly a shadowy realm of darkness).

Some people say that K'aresh should have its own expansion, but that's nonsense. You think Argus was fucked up and didn't warrant an entire expansion? K'aresh is in an even worse state than Argus, since it was literally devoured and consumed by a manifested Void Lord.

Nevertheless, it makes senss to visit the blasted remains of K'aresh for a future content patch.

The point is that people shouldn't be scared about the inevitability of "Light vs. Void" expansion, because it can still feel grounded and tied to Azeroth.

First of all, the Ren'dorei, Lightbound, and Scarlet Crusade feel like grounded forces. The Ren'dorei are a relatively limited group of elves who are empowered by Void, while the Scarlet Crusade is a fanatical religious cult. The Lightbound are a group comprised of Draenei army plus any orc and ogre they managed to convert. None of that "army bigger than the Legion!!!" wank nonsense from Shadowlands. So it can still feel like a grounded expansion with reasonably grounded factions that don't break the power-scale entirely.

Secondly, as we just proved, the expansion can take place mostly on Azeroth. The Cosmic conflict doesn't have to happen outside of Azeroth, and Legion is proof of that. Cosmic conflict of the Burning Crusade took place mostly on the Broken Isles until 7.3.

We also mustn't forget about the Old Gods and how they are clearly going to re-emerge in the future.

11.0 could either be Light vs. Void expansion or Black Empire Resurgence expansion, it could go either way.

[Sondrelk]

No, the factions need to stay and the faction war really wasn't the problem of the expansion(s).

The factions can still be at peace, even if some areas still have conflict. Don't see why you couldn't have some areas where factions are in conflict for variety.

[Khaza-R]

The factions can still be at peace, even if some areas still have conflict. Don't see why you couldn't have some areas where factions are in conflict for variety.

Some conflict has to stay for sure. Night Elves and Worgen making peace with Forsaken is completely lacks any plausibility. On a one to one basis its understandable for characters to work together but not these factions as a whole.

[Cheezits]

oh right, im misremembering
it's probably the 7th force then. (time is order iirc)

anyway, don't see how Strat could be used this expansion. next is just plain better, assuming that it is what i think it is

Time isn't Order. Order can manipulate time, but Order/Arcane is the DNA of the universe.

The fact that Norgannon, the definitive Titan of Arcane, exists while there's also a TIME titan, Aman'thul, has caused some speculation that Time is its own element. All the other magics would want it because it allows them to be the "First Ones" that go back and start the universe as the dominant power.

[loras]

Blizzard will never revamp the entire old world again. They will only revamp a few key zones that are significant from a story perspective, like Tirisfal/Arathi/Darkshore (BfA 8.0), Vale of Eternal Blossoms/Uldum (8.3), and Icecrown (9.0).

Eastern Plaguelands could serve some purpose in this expansion. Tyr has returned, and the city of Tyr's Hand is found in Eastern Plaguelands. Maybe the city's name has more meaning than what appears at a first glance.

Eastern Plaguelands could serve some purpose in the Light-centred expansion. Stratholme was a bastion of the Light and the location where the Order of Silver Hand was formed. Light's Hope Chapel is built on sacred holy ground that made even the Lich King flee.

Then there is that stretch of coastline between Eastern Plaguelands and Outlands Quel'Thalas, which was simply named "Quel'Thalas", and was rumoured to be the original base of the Ren'dorei, until it got changed to Telogrus Rift. The sky in the zone was updated to have Void effect in 7.3.5 PTR (7.3.5 is when Legion Allied races became playable); this never made it live but indicates a connection originally planned between this small region and the Ren'dorei.

Therefore, I can also see the Ren'dorei play a role in an updated Eastern Plaguelands zone, that will make good use of that coastline right behind Stratholme.

Above all else, the Eastern Plaguelands are an important region for the WoW lore. The location of the infamous Culling of Stratholme. One of the scariest end-game zones from Vanilla. The original location of the infamous Naxxramas, the final raid of Vanilla. It is an important zone for the game and its lore, it is an iconic zone. It is one of the zones most likely to be updated for a future lore event.

Good points all.
I would like to add something to this: Tyr/Tiwaz/Tiis/Tiw was the god of war from Norse and Germanic mythologies respectively, lending credence to the idea that this obviously light and order aligned keeper's return heralds in a major war of some sort.

Though it could very well be a different war than you imagine; anything from a titanic civil war to a return of Sargeras or the old gods could lie in the cards.

[Varodoc]

Good points all.
I would like to add something to this: Tyr/Tiwaz/Tiis/Tiw was the god of war from Norse and Germanic mythologies respectively, lending credence to the idea that this obviously light and order aligned keeper's return heralds in a major war of some sort.

Though it could very well be a different war than you imagine; anything from a titanic civil war to a return of Sargeras or the old gods could lie in the cards.

Sargeras and the Titans do not have the same build-up in the CURRENT, ONGOING storyline that Yrel and the Old Gods have.

The ending of Antorus raid is treated as a conclusion to the story of Sargeras and the Titans. Sargeras is banished and the Titans will serve as his eternal jailers. They could return in the future, but it is not a priority.

Meanwhile, the Mag'har questline ends in a cliffhanger as we know that Yrel and the Naaru will try to conquer the Cosmos for the Light, their story is still open. As for the Old Gods, it is so obvious that N'Zoth is still alive and so it makes sense to conclude his story in the future too. Xal'atath and Azshara, two other Void-twisted creatures, are also missing in action.

Lightbound and Old Gods have the priority over Titans as far as expansion concepts are concerned. It would make little sense to have a Titan expansion when these more important story threads are still open.

It's funny how the Lightbound only appear in one quest, that only one faction can do, one quest from 5 years ago, but they are consistently brought up as top expansion villains. They are very important from a world-building perspective because they are the first major Light villainous group in the setting. Scarlet Crusade were an insignificant threat in the grand scheme of things, meanwhile Lightbound literally want to conquer the Cosmos and they have the means to do so as they can build spaceships. It is time that the Lightbound enter the spotlight and I do think that they will feature in 11.0.

[Nymrohd]

The thing is, we've seen nothing indicating dissent among the Titans. We've seen an issue between Odyn and the rest of the Keepers but there is nothing new about that, we've known it since the Chronicle and Legion. It will be very interesting to revisit Ulduar though, with his return, Odyn seems to have taken Hodir and Thorim back on his side but who knows what happens if Tyr can show up again (especially if he can get Archaedas back as well). But again any civil war will be between Keepers, not Titans.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

The thing is, we've seen nothing indicating dissent among the Titans. We've seen an issue between Odyn and the rest of the Keepers but there is nothing new about that, we've known it since the Chronicle and Legion. It will be very interesting to revisit Ulduar though, with his return, Odyn seems to have taken Hodir and Thorim back on his side but who knows what happens if Tyr can show up again (especially if he can get Archaedas back as well). But again any civil war will be between Keepers, not Titans.

Interesting idea seeing Odyn be a "bad" Titan keeper without Old God shennigans cause that seems tempting to do if I were Blizzard. I'd probably like have the Titan aligned constructs due to our influence be less "Don't tell them anything"/standoffishness with mortals but I'm speculating.

[Revamp Man]

Interesting idea seeing Odyn be a "bad" Titan keeper without Old God shennigans cause that seems tempting to do if I were Blizzard. I'd probably like have the Titan aligned constructs due to our influence be less "Don't tell them anything"/standoffishness with mortals but I'm speculating.

i mean its kind of a thing used a lot in stories
group has certain beliefs about lesser beings
one says "no the lesser beings are great"
creates a bit of a rift
pro life group gives something to the lesser beings
conflict ensues
pro life gets punished

i think the oldest one had something to do with fire

- - - Updated - - -

Sargeras and the Titans do not have the same build-up in the CURRENT, ONGOING storyline that Yrel and the Old Gods have.

The ending of Antorus raid is treated as a conclusion to the story of Sargeras and the Titans. Sargeras is banished and the Titans will serve as his eternal jailers. They could return in the future, but it is not a priority.

Meanwhile, the Mag'har questline ends in a cliffhanger as we know that Yrel and the Naaru will try to conquer the Cosmos for the Light, their story is still open. As for the Old Gods, it is so obvious that N'Zoth is still alive and so it makes sense to conclude his story in the future too. Xal'atath and Azshara, two other Void-twisted creatures, are also missing in action.

Lightbound and Old Gods have the priority over Titans as far as expansion concepts are concerned. It would make little sense to have a Titan expansion when these more important story threads are still open.

It's funny how the Lightbound only appear in one quest, that only one faction can do, one quest from 5 years ago, but they are consistently brought up as top expansion villains. They are very important from a world-building perspective because they are the first major Light villainous group in the setting. Scarlet Crusade were an insignificant threat in the grand scheme of things, meanwhile Lightbound literally want to conquer the Cosmos and they have the means to do so as they can build spaceships. It is time that the Lightbound enter the spotlight and I do think that they will feature in 11.0.

yrel has not been mentioned since the allied quest

[Nathanyel]

I think if they would make a world revamp they would make it with AI eventually.

You are vastly overestimating the power of AI. Those pretty pictures? Just mashups of existing art or photos, often with "obvious" mistakes, saw a Sombra pic yesterday that had a hair lock weave through her eye.

This would be even worse in 3D: AI would create houses without entrance, models in general clipping into itself, textures would be nonsensical, building materials on the ground, grass and lava on buildings etc.

AI can maybe help with very tiny things, like take template data created by Blizzard people for a new zone, and produce a baseline map or textures which the actual artists and designers then massively alter to not look like your graphics card is dying.