The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Jaggler]

I have no clue where precisely this kind of Gen Z subculture came from, but I'm tempted to just say "'the curtains are red' and its consequences". The fact that there are people on this forum who have to have the concept of meta-level analysis explained to them is a bad sign, and it kind of reminds me of those studies done in prisons where some prisoners had trouble understanding hypotheticals.

I don't blame this on innate stupidity or anything, I think the idea that some people are simply, unalterably dumb is a myth steeped in eugenicist implications. I think this largely speaks to cultural and educational failings.

In general media literacy is just.. dead

[micwini]

I have no clue where precisely this kind of Gen Z subculture came from, but I'm tempted to just say "'the curtains are red' and its consequences". The fact that there are people on this forum who have to have the concept of meta-level analysis explained to them is a bad sign, and it kind of reminds me of those studies done in prisons where some prisoners had trouble understanding hypotheticals.

I don't blame this on innate stupidity or anything, I think the idea that some people are simply, unalterably dumb is a myth steeped in eugenicist implications. I think this largely speaks to cultural and educational failings.

It is. I don't have enough knowledge on writing to know what it is, but I can feel that something is missing now that was there before.
All I can do is point at the symptoms and then get called all kinds of words by you know what type of people.

Must be weird being blizzard constantly seeing this feedback and then ignoring it:
- Art and music team is always carrying!
- Systems and gameplay have improved since DF
- Character design has started going downhill recently.
- Side quests are mostly great
- Overall story is complete garbage
- Writing team sucks
- The vibe is different now

When will they learn, I do not know.

[Nymrohd]

It is. I don't have enough knowledge on writing to know what it is, but I can feel that something is missing now that was there before.
All I can do is point at the symptoms and then get called all kinds of words by you know what type of people.

Must be weird being blizzard constantly seeing this feedback and then ignoring it:
- Art and music team is always carrying!
- Systems and gameplay have improved since DF
- Character design has started going downhill recently.
- Side quests are mostly great
- Overall story is complete garbage
- Writing team sucks
- The vibe is different now

When will they learn, I do not know.

They will learn little because feedback is often ignored in favour of data and data transformation into a knowledge base is so easy to manipulate.

[Joshuaj]

Believe it or not, we kinddd of do, from the horse's mouth:

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/4XknZ4 Not trying to back one side or the other lmao. just kind of true even if not said in-universe.

1. Thank fuck you also know of this!

And 2. Firim's notes in 9.1 + Chronicle IV's explanation of the Shadowlands "mythos" also imply it. Heck, Firim himself talked about how there were 6 primal forces that were initially imbalanced, they came together and formed a design, the architects have a portion of themselves, and thus the pattern was not only drawn, but the six primordial forces found balance. Folks initially thought the 6 forces were separate from the Progenitors, but Chronicle IV and other implications suggest that's not the case (which imo makes sense).

My argument however stems from the idea that they're in an eternal hibernation, which would explain why they're not only "not around anymore" within the cosmos, but also why Firim wonders is they even still sing the song of creation or not.

Might I direct you all to Saezurah's voice lines? Specifically this: "Her dreams sing beneath the surface. Quiet now, but her voice will awaken the others!"

I wonder if her fully awakening may reawaken the First Ones, or something along those lines.

- - - Updated - - -

I have no clue where precisely this kind of Gen Z subculture came from, but I'm tempted to just say "'the curtains are red' and its consequences". The fact that there are people on this forum who have to have the concept of meta-level analysis explained to them is a bad sign, and it kind of reminds me of those studies done in prisons where some prisoners had trouble understanding hypotheticals.

I don't blame this on innate stupidity or anything, I think the idea that some people are simply, unalterably dumb is a myth steeped in eugenicist implications. I think this largely speaks to cultural and educational failings.

I don't think you're one to talk on anything regarding these things. Half of these "I don't like this stuff, and I want it retconned" arguments stem from emotional responses rather than logical ones. Yet somehow it's a generations fault I'm not taking you guys seriously?

Think for moment, then move on.

[Santandame]

They will learn little because feedback is often ignored in favour of data and data transformation into a knowledge base is so easy to manipulate.

Feedback is ignored because they’re writing a story that they all think is cool and it’s a story for them. They’re not writing for the fans of the game, it’s a passion project for them. I mean, fair play to them, to some extent I get it, but it’s misguided.

WoW’s lore and characters used to be of high interest to me. I looked forward to where the story was going, which characters would be featured, if there would be any return etc. Nowadays I have zero interest. It’s a dreadful story with characters ranging from dreadful to slightly above average at best. It’s a shame because WoW was a big part of my teenage years growing up but I’m pretty indifferent to the story these days - I simply don’t care all that much. I play for the gameplay, expansion launch with friends which has become tradition and exploring the new setting.

To those that do really enjoy the story and its characters, more power to you. But I’m definitely puzzled by the people they feel the need to vehemently defend it; let’s not pretend it’s quality story telling by any means. You can like something and still understand that quality wise it’s just not that good. It’s why I’ll never understand the in depth analysis and discussion many in this thread engage in with regards to the deeper mythos such as the cosmic forces. It really isn’t that deep.

In my opinion WoW is at its best when it’s full on camp; Blizzard should lean into that a lot more.

[Joshuaj]

It is. I don't have enough knowledge on writing to know what it is, but I can feel that something is missing now that was there before.
All I can do is point at the symptoms and then get called all kinds of words by you know what type of people.

Must be weird being blizzard constantly seeing this feedback and then ignoring it:
- Art and music team is always carrying!
- Systems and gameplay have improved since DF
- Character design has started going downhill recently.
- Side quests are mostly great
- Overall story is complete garbage
- Writing team sucks
- The vibe is different now

When will they learn, I do not know.

Don't talk down on writing when you want the First Ones to get retconned into being the Titans

- - - Updated - - -

Feedback is ignored because they’re writing a story that they all think is cool and it’s a story for them. They’re not writing for the fans of the game, it’s a passion project for them. I mean, fair play to them, to some extent I get it, but it’s misguided.

WoW’s lore and characters used to be of high interest to me. I looked forward to where the story was going, which characters would be featured, if there would be any return etc. Nowadays I have zero interest. It’s a dreadful story with characters ranging from dreadful to slightly above average at best. It’s a shame because WoW was a big part of my teenage years growing up but I’m pretty indifferent to the story these days - I simply don’t care all that much. I play for the gameplay, expansion launch with friends which has become tradition and exploring the new setting.

To those that do really enjoy the story and its characters, more power to you. But I’m definitely puzzled by the people they feel the need to vehemently defend it; let’s not pretend it’s quality story telling by any means. You can like something and still understand that quality wise it’s just not that good.

In my opinion WoW is at its best when it’s full on camp; Blizzard should lean into that a lot more.

It's one thing to shit on a bad narrative (trust me, I shit on it a lot myself. Though I like to stay positive about the game on this forum), but it's an entirely different thing when you make things up and want it to be the new canon.

- - - Updated - - -

In general media literacy is just.. dead

Don't even dare.

[Santandame]

Don't talk down on writing when you want the First Ones to get retconned into being the Titans

They’re talking down on Blizzards writing because it simply isn’t that good.

You clearly enjoy the writing, power to you. But you cannot argue that it is good, quality writing.

[Joshuaj]

And by my understanding the forces pre existed the First Ones anyway

The primordial forces are the First Ones.

- - - Updated - - -

They’re talking down on Blizzards writing because it simply isn’t that good.

You clearly enjoy the writing, power to you. But you cannot argue that it is good, quality writing.

Wanting the writing to be good isn't the same thing as wanting a personal fanfiction to become true.

Saying "I can do it better" only to say something that's not correct and desire it to be correct is just silly, really. Wouldn't it make more sense to continue what does exist and expand upon it in a more proper, fan fulfilling way?

[Nymrohd]

In my opinion WoW is at its best when it’s full on camp; Blizzard should lean into that a lot more.

A combination between epic fantasy and camp is the best for high fantasy in general. You want camp villains and epic heroes.

[Joshuaj]

I mean, ffs, even though TWW had its narrative issues, I respect the fact Blizzard decided to utilize K'aresh and give players a proper battle against a Void Lord (which was built up pretty well narratively also, ngl). I also respect them for doubling down on Azeroth's nature + the Titans true intentions by making a series of documentations by Archaedas.

- - - Updated - - -

A combination between epic fantasy and camp is the best for high fantasy in general. You want camp villains and epic heroes.

This as well. If there is anything I will say regarding WoW's narrative negatively, it's the fact we're kinda lacking in the "epic heroes" department. I like Alleria and whatnot, but you can very clearly tell they're not nearly as cool as Varian, Tirion, Thrall in the old lore, etc. Heck, a lot of the story characters from the old lore are either in the background or just aren't that interesting, which stinks.

If anything, Blizzard's made it to where the players are the "epic lore heroes" now, and that's fine in a vacuum, but I don't think that's fine when making a multi-decade narrative lol.

[Santandame]

I mean, ffs, even though TWW had its narrative issues, I respect the fact Blizzard decided to utilize K'aresh and give players a proper battle against a Void Lord (which was built up pretty well narratively also, ngl). I also respect them for doubling down on Azeroth's nature + the Titans true intentions by making a series of documentations by Archaedas.

- - - Updated - - -



This as well. If there is anything I will say regarding WoW's narrative negatively, it's the fact we're kinda lacking in the "epic heroes" department. I like Alleria and whatnot, but you can very clearly tell they're not nearly as cool as Varian, Tirion, Thrall in the old lore, etc. Heck, a lot of the story characters from the old lore are either in the background or just aren't that interesting, which stinks.

If anything, Blizzard's made it to where the players are the "epic lore heroes" now, and that's fine in a vacuum, but I don't think that's fine when making a multi-decade narrative lol.

Blizzard using K’aresh - brilliant! About time.

How Blizzard used K’aresh - very poorly.

[Joshuaj]

The villains have been pretty cool tho imo. Heck, I kinda include Zovaal cause while he was a narrative disaster, he still fit the whole "rule of cool" stuff perfectly.

- - - Updated - - -

Blizzard using K’aresh - brilliant! About time.

How Blizzard used K’aresh - very poorly.

Ik people expected it to be more "grand", but it's a planet that was not only getting devoured by Dimensius, but it also got nuked in order to destroy Dimensius (and that didn't even fully work, as Dimensius was simply fragmented). It looking the way it does makes sense imo.

- - - Updated - - -

Surprisingly good decision given how awful a lot of the modern art is. It looks nice.

I'm sorry, what? How awful a lot of the modern art is, seriously?

[Santandame]

The villains have been pretty cool tho imo. Heck, I kinda include Zovaal cause while he was a narrative disaster, he still fit the whole "rule of cool" stuff perfectly.

- - - Updated - - -



Ik people expected it to be more "grand", but it's a planet that was not only getting devoured by Dimensius, but it also got nuked in order to destroy Dimensius (and that didn't even fully work, as Dimensius was simply fragmented). It looking the way it does makes sense imo.

Personally I think with enough creativity there could have been an expansion centred around it. It could have been done in a similar vein to Outland. Alternatively, make better, more creative use of the Eco Domes to create larger, more varied biomes with unique skyboxes.

[Joshuaj]

Hence the Chronicle Vol 4 and beforehand in-game Lore with Firim basically stating any comprehension of "The First Ones" is just the cosmic forces (in whatever language they are named.)

But yes, I agree a leap to some extent. It being declared a 'myth' over 1 year ago now is just a nice cherry on top of the bias that the Brokers showed when 'explaining' their 'knowledge' of the First Ones, Titans, and Shadowlands. Mortals can absolutely out-do the Pantheon, but do they fall to the same hubris time and again? Yep.

It's only deemed a mythos the same way the Chronicle belief is deemed a myth. They're still beliefs, and both can be and likely are true in some way. Also note that the Titans know of the First Ones existence, and seemingly told Odyn not to mention them in the Titanforged documents, as to "not confuse mortals" or whatever.

As for the top statement? Yeah, they're seemingly just the forces, with their influences being expressed through the Cosmic Realms and the cosmic embodiments that lord over said realms (The Titans for Order, the Demons for Disorder, the Void Lords for Shadow, etc). That's why the Titans, the Void Lords, etc are also called "cosmic forces" by Danuser, and why he said in one of his interviews that the cosmic powers we see within our cosmology were made by the First Ones, cause that is true.

[Nymrohd]

Personally I think with enough creativity there could have been an expansion centred around it. It could have been done in a similar vein to Outland. Alternatively, make better, more creative use of the Eco Domes to create larger, more varied biomes with unique skyboxes.

I kind of thought it would be fun to have a space exploration expansion with K'aresh as the hub. The ethereals seem to be the best dimensional travelers of the setting. We could have the remnants of K'aresh just as they are now as a portal hub and 3-5 zones in different planets that have been mentioned during WoW's history. Yes something like that would be disjointed like Shadowlands was but with Dragonriding and instant travel between the hub and the zones it wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue.

[Joshuaj]

Personally I think with enough creativity there could have been an expansion centred around it. It could have been done in a similar vein to Outland. Alternatively, make better, more creative use of the Eco Domes to create larger, more varied biomes with unique skyboxes.

I can agree to this, or at least have it be like Argus, where we see the ruins of their former capital, we have a zone that houses Manaforge Omega, and we have a zone that houses Tazavesh, ya know?

I think it being one zone consisting of multiple floating islands wasn't the best way to represent it.

- - - Updated - - -

You have to take quite a few leaps to go from "the swirls are the First Ones looking down on us" to "the swirls represent the six cosmic forces"

Not really a leap if they're seemingly one in the same.

[Limayria]

I mean, ffs, even though TWW had its narrative issues, I respect the fact Blizzard decided to utilize K'aresh and give players a proper battle against a Void Lord (which was built up pretty well narratively also, ngl). I also respect them for doubling down on Azeroth's nature + the Titans true intentions by making a series of documentations by Archaedas.

- - - Updated - - -



This as well. If there is anything I will say regarding WoW's narrative negatively, it's the fact we're kinda lacking in the "epic heroes" department. I like Alleria and whatnot, but you can very clearly tell they're not nearly as cool as Varian, Tirion, Thrall in the old lore, etc. Heck, a lot of the story characters from the old lore are either in the background or just aren't that interesting, which stinks.

If anything, Blizzard's made it to where the players are the "epic lore heroes" now, and that's fine in a vacuum, but I don't think that's fine when making a multi-decade narrative lol.

The players being the hero works great, you just have to actually write it in a coherent way, which wow has the perfect set up for player stand ins via introducing new canonical orderhall leaders who would be our player stand ins

[micwini]

Don't talk down on writing when you want the First Ones to get retconned into being the Titans

- - - Updated - - -



It's one thing to shit on a bad narrative (trust me, I shit on it a lot myself. Though I like to stay positive about the game on this forum), but it's an entirely different thing when you make things up and want it to be the new canon.

- - - Updated - - -



Don't even dare.

Don't talk down others when they don't agree with your niche takes.
They're only going to salvage from SL what they deemed possible (Brokers = Ethereals, devourers, so far).

The writing is simply just not that good currently. It lacks depth and originality. First ones are just titans but one level higher. They've made similar groups/factions recently and it just show that they do not care about original lore or the setting.
Primalists are just twilights hammer 2.0
Arathi (empire) is just Scarlet crusade 2.0
Red dawn is just US political drama insert.

There is one thing about disliking a story and another where you can recognize a decline in quality.
We're talking about the second here.

There are only 2 ways the First Ones debacle can be salvaged instead of them just being Titans 2.0:
1. They are the actual titans. They ordered SL like Freya ordered the Emerald Dream
2. It is the in universe name for the 6 forces.

I prefer 1 because I dislike that all magic types need to perfectly fit into one of six boxes. It isn't only boring, it limits the setting immensely.

It is fine if you like the First Ones, but the writing is currently just dogshit. And the more cosmic they go, the more shit it becomes.
We're almost at a point where the writing is ultimately childish and has a lot in common with "infinity + 1" -> "infinity infinity".

The writing team needs to be axed and replaced with people actually passionate about the lore instead of people that are only in it for the money and to insert their one dimensional world view.

[COBRAstriker]

Feedback is ignored because they’re writing a story that they all think is cool and it’s a story for them. They’re not writing for the fans of the game

Yeah, it's been a problem that I have also been pointing to a lot, fully agree here. This isn't isolated only to writing, but to the new races we get to play or interact with, the new characters they're introducing, the tone and vibe of the game and so on. As far as the creative aspect goes, what WoW players actually want is pretty much the opposite of what Blizzard is currently doing

I am slowly coming to terms that it will never get better, as sad as this makes me. Most of the writers on WoW now are millennials that grew up living comfy lives in California colleges and who believe that Harry Potter is the peak of fantasy writing and who browse Booktok. What kind of expectations can we realistically have here? There's employees there that started with QA and now they're quest writers. Blizzard is also unwilling or unable to hire seasoned writers. So this is what we get

Bland, sanitized, safe, inoffensive, heavily politicized (California based studio and all that) writing, characters, characterization and stories

Someone mentioned that the new guard doesn't show hate towards their predecessors' work, but what would you call the utter destruction of the setting and the staggering amount of character assassinations from BfA to now? If it's not hate it's contempt at the very least

In SL, they promised to treat Arthas with respect, one of the most iconic and beloved Warcraft characters to this day. Then what did they do? They never brought him up ever again until Sepulcher where they used Sylvanas (who should be dead by the way considering what she has done. If it were a dude doing what Sylvanas did, Blizzard would have hotfixed him out of the game) out of everyone to berate him as he fades away as a blue fart cloud. They turned the iconic Helm of Domination into a shitty level 20 green. They asspulled a bald guy with massive nipples as the mastermind behind everything starting with WC3. They completely trivialized the concept of death. And all these things led to the death of a big portion of the community that was invested into the lore and setting. So what would you call that, if not hate for a product that they inherited, and which was far more successful before they took it down this road?

I sometimes still see people on here defending the narrative them and honestly I am left speechless every time. Like.. why? It must be because of some ideological alignment because what Blizzard is producing nowadays is met with wideapread negativity, mockery, ridicule and dissatisfaction at worst, apathy at best

[Joshuaj]

"They're only going to salvage SL lore that they know they can salvage"

That's not how writing a consistent narrative works. Also, regarding the First Ones, number 2 is most likely the case.

As for things being copied off another thing or things only going bigger from here? Welcome to most major fictional verses, friend. DC, Marvel, Dragon Ball, Final Fantasy, they've all done it. Why are we surprised WoW does it too?