The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Houle]

It's less that, and more that the people that do criticize them don't actually understand wtf they're talking about.

Case in point lol

[Joshuaj]

Yeah, and as with nearly everything, there were cases where it worked, and cases where it didnt. And you are trying to defend some of the most glaring cases of the latter, by acting as if the people criticizing them just dont grasp how good they were.

Houle, if I may ask, why don't you find Dimensius cool?

[allegrian]

The world soul saga trully starts at midnight, TWW was thrown under the bus to become a filler prologue for midnight. Let's see once TLT is over if they lied to us about commiting to a real saga or we will keep noticing pivots a mile away from patch to patch like we've been doing since BFA.

[Jaggler]

I personally don't mind the first ones, as long as they remain far away and don't get "titanized" in the way that happened during legion (or rather Antorus)

[whoisqnx]

Random thought, been wondering what the new affixes will be based on. Hopefully not Xal again, would be pretty lazy and boring.

[Vakir]

Case in point lol

You're dealing with someone who thinks something being justified or coherent in-universe under the artifice of whatever lore exists...takes precedence over being able to be justified or coherent as a story to be consumed out-of-universe.

"Why, of course, they don't understand the actual truth of X or Y abstract concept and that's why they don't like it."

When, no, a detailed encyclopedic understanding of how the six homogeneous colored-sparklepoofs work shouldn't even be required to connect with something.

Not to mention, if we're going to play devil's advocate and say this many people truly don't "understand" something, maybe it's possible your writing lacks clarity.

For some reason, at a certain point, "lore, plot, story, and characters" all kind of got lumped together by pop culture enjoyers on the Internet and they placed Lore as the most important monolith.

[Joshuaj]

The world soul saga trully starts at midnight, TWW was thrown under the bus to become a filler prologue for midnight. Let's see once TLT is over if they lied to us about commiting to a real saga or we will keep noticing pivots a mile away from patch to patch like we've been doing since BFA.

I keep seeing this narrative being thrown around, but like...no?

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You're dealing with someone who thinks something being justified or coherent in-universe under the artifice of whatever lore exists...takes precedence over being able to be justified or coherent as a story to be consumed out-of-universe.

"Why, of course, they don't understand the actual truth of X or Y abstract concept and that's why they don't like it."

When, no, a detailed encyclopedic understanding of how the six homogeneous colored-sparklepoofs work shouldn't even be required to connect with something.

Not to mention, if we're going to play devil's advocate and say this many people truly don't "understand" something, maybe it's possible your writing lacks clarity.

For some reason, at a certain point, "lore, plot, story, and characters" all kind of got lumped together by pop culture enjoyers on the Internet and they placed Lore as the most important monolith.

This issue exists in the general WoW narrative, unfortunately.

[Houle]

Houle, if I may ask, why don't you find Dimensius cool?

Lets see.

He was introduced in 2007 as part of the backstory for the Ethereals. He was mentioned once or twice, showed up in a quest, and was immediatly defeated for good (before the retcon).

Then, 2016, he was retconned into being one of the VLs, in a singular off-hand comment from Xal.

Then in 2025, the character shows up again. His singular win in the story, being the destroyer of K'aresh, is retconned and changed into a loss (it was actually Xal+LW, and Dimensius was the one who got fucked over).

He shows up in the raid, is again immediatly defeated by pretty much the same peope who defeated him previously without any issues, and his power is slurped up by Xal, who goes "Lol thanks" and runs off to do the same thing was she going to do prior.

So what about him should i find cool? His role in the narrative consists of him collecting L after L, and serving as the setup for someone else. His characterization is flatter than cardbord. Not even his design is that great, since hes just the same purple cloud as all the others, but a bit bigger (though that is subjective tbf).

He is, and pretty much always was, a throwaway villain. Dont see whats supposed to be so "cool" about him.

[Joshuaj]

Lets see.

He was introduced in 2007 as part of the backstory for the Ethereals. He was mentioned once or twice, showed up in a quest, and was immediatly defeated for good (before the retcon).

Then, 2016, he was retconned into being one of the VLs, in a singular off-hand comment from Xal.

Then in 2025, the character shows up again. His singular win in the story, being the destroyer of K'aresh, is retconned and changed into a loss (it was actually Xal+LW, and Dimensius was the one who got fucked over).

He shows up in the raid, is again immediatly defeated by pretty much the same peope who defeated him previously without any issues, and his power is slurped up by Xal, who goes "Lol thanks" and runs off to do the same thing was she going to do prior.

So what about him should i find cool? His role in the narrative consists of him collecting L after L, and serving as the setup for someone else. His characterization is flatter than cardbord. Not even his design is that great, since hes just the same purple cloud as all the others, but a bit bigger (though that is subjective tbf).

Narratively, he ain't the best, that is totally fair. But ya don't find his fight cool? His theme? His abilities? Nothing?

Ik I'm back on the "powers" stuff, but I'd argue that's a good rule of cool point, no?

[Aucald]

I find it interesting how people seem to be pretty deadset against the First Ones as a concept, generally calling them out as being "hastily inserted" or "coming out of nowhere" while forgetting that the Titans themselves were pretty much invented whole-cloth during WC3, alongside the Old Gods, as a completely new backstory for the greater Warcraft universe that was never a factor in either WC1 or WC2. In The WC1/WC2 era of lore, the demons weren't an army of extradimensional aliens, but rather existed in a more literal fantasy version of "hell," or the lower planes, echoing the classic D&D depiction of demons.

This isn't to say the existing lore of the First Ones is superbly written or related, simply that all ideas have their genesis somewhere, and in Warcraft's case, very few of them really receive much in the way of elaborate setup or foreshadowing. Since its balmiest days, the writing for Warcraft and WoW has been far more improvisational, although they do seem to be trying to take lore and storytelling more seriously as WoW ages.

[Vakir]

This issue exists in the general WoW narrative, unfortunately.

While WoW has always had story problems, no, I wouldn't say so. Subjective, obviously. But I'd argue there were absolutely individual times where you, say, could connect with characters even if the plot was convoluted or lacked consistency. There were times where even if the core plot had pacing problems or certain characters frustrated you, the actual story underlying the plot had value. They are not the same thing.

You're asking someone why Dimensius isn't cool. I'm not gonna answer for them because you didn't ask me.

But instead, let me ask you to describe Dimensius as a character. Not his design, not his abilities, his role in the story or an antagonist, or what cosmic force he represents. Tell me who Dimensius is the way you'd describe a friend or an enemy to someone else in your life.

Rule of cool is important at times, but it's a lazy shorthand for bad writing at others when it feels very inauthentic. It also can't be your only grace. Any big cool powers can be made for spectacle and that just means your spectacle is indistinguishable from another one.

This is true even in stories designed from the start to be gag manga. For a rule of cool story with increasing powers, Dragon Ball had and has continued to have colossal diminishing returns after Freiza. Because money. Toriyama didn't want to continue. But the unwashed masses don't give a shit about Sandland.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Like, these are not "lol avocado toast munchers" talking about their gender studies class or whatever Boogeyman is being imagined.

They're just hacks or tired, attached to a tired franchise.

Pretty much ya. Steve was a hack, Alex was atleast half a hack being able To do some good stuff but should never have been a lead, and Metzen has been on and off with the franchise since Wod after mellowing out.

[allegrian]

I keep seeing this narrative being thrown around, but like...no?

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This issue exists in the general WoW narrative, unfortunately.

TWW was created by Danuser initially to be about a "titans bad + world core" story. That's why we had story about Tyr and books about the watchers in DF, why the incarnates were all about "titans are bad", and why we go to khaz alghar in the first place, following echoes from the world core and helping the earthen discover that they were abused by the titans and watchers. But Metzen came in, added Foot Waifu as the main villain and changed all TWW to be about us following Xalatath as a build up of her as a villain for Midnight, where she's the main villain.

That's why we suddenly stop caring about Earthen, Nerubians, Arathi and after a (amazing) filler goblin patch, we go to a completely unrelated place for a completely unrelated story to the main TWW continent, focusing 100% on xalatath.

At the end of TWW, we are basically at the same place we were at the start, with Xalatath having a powerful artifact and trying to do evil things with it, the only difference is that she and her 'rival' Alleria have had more screentime before the expansion that focuses on them.

TWW originally was about going closer and closer to the world core and fighting the titans or them coming back as evil at the end to be the main villains in the next expansion (which was probably repurposed to be TLT).

[COBRAstriker]

snip

People like Danuser or Metzen aren't in charge of the actual writing. They may set out the general direction of where the story goes, but the actual writing and narrative is done by others. Like for example, Anne Stickney. Which explains why the Arathi questline went live on Metzen's watch, someone who himself said that the process is more "democratized" now, which means, anyone that writes for WoW doesn't have to adhere to one singular vision. Which is why we have a mess now, and why things haven't improved with Metzen's return either

And I'm sorry, but what dog whistles? The Overton window has shifted to the point we can now openly discuss these things, provided that the discussion remains civil. Blizzard themselves has hired people to work or write for WoW which hold questionable world views and have also expressed such views publicly. Is it that far fetched to think that said people will also not hesitate to use the game as a vehicle to further propagate such views? Come on now, we're all adults here

[Joshuaj]

TWW was created by Danuser initially to be about a "titans bad + world core" story. That's why we had story about Tyr and books about the watchers in DF, why the incarnates were all about "titans are bad", and why we go to khaz alghar in the first place, following echoes from the world core and helping the earthen discover that they were abused by the titans and watchers. But Metzen came in, added Foot Waifu as the main villain and changed all TWW to be about us following Xalatath as a build up of her as a villain for Midnight, where she's the main villain.

That's why we suddenly stop caring about Earthen, Nerubians, Arathi and after a (amazing) filler goblin patch, we go to a completely unrelated place for a completely unrelated story to the main TWW continent, focusing 100% on xalatath.

At the end of TWW, we are basically at the same place we were at the start, with Xalatath having a powerful artifact and trying to do evil things with it, the only difference is that she and her 'rival' Alleria have had more screentime before the expansion that focuses on them.

TWW originally was about going closer and closer to the world core and fighting the titans or them coming back as evil at the end to be the main villains in the next expansion (which was probably repurposed to be TLT).

Again, that's not how narratives work. Dragonflight had a LOT of Worldsoul Saga prelude stuff, and while Danuser was probably working on TWW's initial story, he likely wasn't that far into development before Metzen jumped in with his Worldsoul Saga plans.

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While WoW has always had story problems, no, I wouldn't say so. Subjective, obviously. But I'd argue there were absolutely individual times where you, say, could connect with characters even if the plot was convoluted or lacked consistency. There were times where even if the core plot had pacing problems or certain characters frustrated you, the actual story underlying the plot had value. They are not the same thing.

You're asking someone why Dimensius isn't cool. I'm not gonna answer for them because you didn't ask me.

But instead, let me ask you to describe Dimensius as a character. Not his design, not his abilities, his role in the story or an antagonist, or what cosmic force he represents. Tell me who Dimensius is the way you'd describe a friend or an enemy to someone else in your life.

Rule of cool is important at times, but it's a lazy shorthand for bad writing at others when it feels very inauthentic. It also can't be your only grace. Any big cool powers can be made for spectacle and that just means your spectacle is indistinguishable from another one.

This is true even in stories designed from the start to be gag manga. For a rule of cool story with increasing powers, Dragon Ball had and has continued to have colossal diminishing returns after Freiza. Because money. Toriyama didn't want to continue. But the unwashed masses don't give a shit about Sandland.

Dimensius? A bad guy who needed to be stopped, or else we'd be dead. If you were to tell me to describe him as an enemy, that's what I'd say.

[Houle]

I find it interesting how people seem to be pretty deadset against the First Ones as a concept, generally calling them out as being "hastily inserted" or "coming out of nowhere" while forgetting that the Titans themselves were pretty much invented whole-cloth during WC3, alongside the Old Gods, as a completely new backstory for the greater Warcraft universe that was never a factor in either WC1 or WC2. In The WC1/WC2 era of lore, the demons weren't an army of extradimensional aliens, but rather existed in a more literal fantasy version of "hell," or the lower planes, echoing the classic D&D depiction of demons.

This isn't to say the existing lore of the First Ones is superbly written or related, simply that all ideas have their genesis somewhere, and in Warcraft's case, very few of them really receive much in the way of elaborate setup or foreshadowing. Since its balmiest days, the writing for Warcraft and WoW has been far more improvisational, although they do seem to be trying to take lore and storytelling more seriously as WoW ages.

Thats largely bc back then, the lore was more undefined, given how new it was. WC1 was so different, bc the game was originally not even supposed to be its own IP with its own universe, it was supposed to be a Warhammer game, for which they didnt get the license. WC2 then followed that, but started introducing more original stuff. And WC3 was when the franchise truly found its own footing, theme, style and overall larger universe.

So id argue it makes a pretty considerable difference if you introduce new stuff of such importance during the franchises founding years when its still trying to find its own direction, or over 2 decades (!) after its creation, when the story, its characters, themes and larger narrative and backstory are all well established and set.

[Joshuaj]

Yes, he's not a complex character, and I'm fine that he isn't.

[Vakir]

People like Danuser or Metzen aren't in charge of the actual writing. They may set out the general direction of where the story goes, but the actual writing and narrative is done by others.

The biggest bug in the ass of the story is Anduin and he's the writer's pet and main creation in terms of his modern characterization of a woman in her 50s. Wait, 60s, Jesus.

There's plenty of good and challenging media coming out of people in their 20s and 30s that have political undertones or even overtones.

These people are just hacks, regardless of age, frankly. Tying it to one particular ideology is missing the forest for the trees.

Dimensius? A bad guy who needed to be stopped, or else we'd be dead. If you were to tell me to describe him as an enemy, that's what I'd say.

No, an actual human enemy, in every day life.
I didn't ask you if he was complex. I told you to describe his character. Traits. Personality.

[Joshuaj]

Thats largely bc back then, the lore was more undefined, given how new it was. WC1 was so different, bc the game was originally not even supposed to be its own IP with its own universe, it was supposed to be a Warhammer game, for which they didnt get the license. WC2 then followed that, but started introducing more original stuff. And WC3 was when the franchise truly found its own footing, theme, style and overall larger universe.

So id argue it makes a pretty considerable difference if you introduce new stuff of such importance during the franchises founding years when its still trying to find its own direction, or over 2 decades (!) after its creation, when the story, its characters, themes and larger narrative and backstory are all well established and set.

The higher cosmology stuff is definitely not that established lol

Heck, we haven't even properly seen the Light realm, the Void realm, the Life realm, etc. We don't even know if an Order realm exists or not.

[Hitei]

I find it interesting how people seem to be pretty deadset against the First Ones as a concept, generally calling them out as being "hastily inserted" or "coming out of nowhere" while forgetting that the Titans themselves were pretty much invented whole-cloth during WC3, alongside the Old Gods, as a completely new backstory for the greater Warcraft universe that was never a factor in either WC1 or WC2. In The WC1/WC2 era of lore, the demons weren't an army of extradimensional aliens, but rather existed in a more literal fantasy version of "hell," or the lower planes, echoing the classic D&D depiction of demons.

This isn't to say the existing lore of the First Ones is superbly written or related, simply that all ideas have their genesis somewhere, and in Warcraft's case, very few of them really receive much in the way of elaborate setup or foreshadowing. Since its balmiest days, the writing for Warcraft and WoW has been far more improvisational, although they do seem to be trying to take lore and storytelling more seriously as WoW ages.

Old good, new bad.