The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Vakir]

So Jaina should've nuked Orgrimmar like she planned and saved us all from Garrosh ye? Shame that Thrall had to step in. No one stepped in for Sylvanas, she was cool doing it and the fans liked it. Jaina on the other hand was a "crazy bitch".

If I recall correctly, and I very well might be incorrect on this one, Garrosh wasn't present at Orgrimmar, which was one of the arguments used by Thrall and Kalecgos at the time: That Jaina was doing it out of rage and spite rather than even any immediate intention of dealing with Garrosh by any means necessary. She also was enslaving elementals to do it, which is morally pretty dubious.

It's a separate discussion altogether about collective punishment vs. the individual either way.

But hey, that's a lot of political and ethics discussion, and we can't have that. WoW was never political before Shadowlands.

[Lady Atia]

So just because some evil douchebag was messing with the afterlives, it was ok for her to kill so many people?

So Jaina should've nuked Orgrimmar like she planned and saved us all from Garrosh ye? Shame that Thrall had to step in. No one stepped in for Sylvanas, she was cool doing it and the fans liked it. Jaina on the other hand was a "crazy bitch".

Tbf, she knew that "theoretically" they wouldn't die (just get send to another plane to build an army so they can actually fix the whole afterlive mess). Oc she didn't know that Big Z would turn them all into soul ash lol.

And Jaina wasn't a crazy bitch either wtf. She's easy in my top 3 wow characters alongside Alleria and Sylvie.

[Warden Shadowsong]

Love how people get upset about racism and politics in a fantasy game where you character is canonically a murder hobo.

STOP
APPLYING
REAL
WORLD
IDEOLOGIES
TO
A
VIDEOGAME

I don't care if garrosh is a pos by today's standards. I just like him because he's cool. I miss wow being cool

There is no talking to these people. They see something like that in the game and immediately, without rubbing even 2 neurons together, go: "is that an analogy to the REAL LIFE?!?!1"
They are either mentally challenged, terminally online, extremely loud or simply unhinged twitter dwellers and Blizzard will always bow to them because the world is wired like that and they know it.

See post #121003 for a textbook example, lol.

[COBRAstriker]

I mean, Sylvanas at least did it because she wanted to change the shitty Shadowlands system, rightfully so. It was a means to the greater good.

Garrosh .... was simply a nazi Orc lol.

His style was good though, but he sadly had 0 redeeming qualities after they turned him into Hitler 2.0 in MoP.

The burning of Teldrassil was for the greater good? See now you sound even more ridiculous

[Vakir]

I don't feel insecure at all about the quest, in fact my immediate response to it was that it's petty and pathetic. Leaving the reasons I gave aside, there's nothing interesting about the quest. It doesn't even attempt to tell a story. It's literally 'go and desecrate this grave'. Does Gamon actually need proof that a character who died over a decade ago is, surprise, still dead?

And those are more valid complaints than "clearly they hate Garrosh Hellscream, a character they are still referencing when they don't need to, and a character they still routinely advertise and member-berry when it's convenient for them."

Drek'thar was indeed in a wheelchair, but he's old as dirt and even then he maintained his character, look up his dialogue in that one quest. Placing one of the most powerful mages in the setting, one who has travelled to alien planets to fight orcs and demons, in a floating pink wheelchair is just humiliating.

Old as dirt is no excuse. He's an orc. An old school orc's orc. And naturally, it's completely absent as a thing after that because it was dumb as shit.

My point is nobody made it about that when it happened and it's extremely selective and paranoid otherwise. It's far more insulting and out of character than it is for Khadgar, a guy who I absolutely would believe would have a glowing, garrish pink wheelchair as a gag.

(Pssssssst. The actual writing problem here is Warcraft's past issues and eternal struggle with sidelining characters that are absolutely batshit insane overpowered. Right now Malfurion is banging his equally busted wife while the world teeters on the brink. They're trying to come up with excuses to not have these interfere with the story.

If they hated Khadgar, they'd have fucking kept him ineffectually dead. He didn't even go out in a way that tangibly created a problem for Xal'atath.)

Why does it even have wheels if it's floating?

"In episode 2F09, when Itchy plays Scratchy's skeleton like a xylophone, he strikes the same rib in succession, yet he produces two clearly different tones. I mean, what are we to believe, that this is a magic xylophone, or something? Haha, boy, I really hope somebody got fired for that blunder."

Danath going from older or even BfA Danath to peace and tolerance Danath is also intentional. Are you meaning to say that they greenlit that HQ cutscene of him saying that without ANYONE in there being aware of his character? Come on.

Yes, it is intentional. Very good! My point is that it isn't "disrespectful" because if they wanted to shit on Danath, they'd have done it the same way they always do it - make them into a villain because their belief system isn't compatible with the Anduin hivemind and then murder and/or change him.

It indicates they "like" Danath and want to "have" Danath in their story but do not understand Danath. Otherwise, he'd go the way of so very many Horde characters.

You can be embarrassing like a clueless parent, and Blizzard is, but you can't intentionally humiliate someone or something if you aren't deliberately attempting harm.

If they're that stupid and it's not intentional, then Blizzard must be hiring the dumbest people alive.

It being an intentional writing decision aside - yes! You did it! Congratulations!

You also haven't addressed the fact that Blizzard often likes to hire questionable individuals such as Roux to write for the game, who still has an NPC to her name by the way. Somehow, in their spree to remove or rename so many NPCs back in 9.1.5, they missed this one. Curious, isn't it?

They also renamed other non-offenders to the modern discourse with the justification of not wanting to tie real names to in-game characters, not just people like Furor/Afrasiabi.

Frankly, I'm happy if they forgot, because it means they forgot more of Shadowlands and maybe one day it'll be completely reverted out of existence.

If they didn't, and she says something "problematic," I'm equally happy because it means Blizzard gets to eat some other controversy. Maybe we can get "Better ABK For Real This Time." Probably not, because Microsoft. Zzzz.

I'm familiar with the tweets. You can hear more incendiary things in an employee break room. Definitely not insecure, though.

I never said that WoW or WC3 had stellar writing. It always was rather simple and average. But characters were, at least for the most part consistent and even when they had a change of heart, it was because an impactful event took place to justify that change. It didn't happen in a 20 minutes questline

I can't think of a single WoW questline that was longer in terms of actual story content vs. gameplay content that was longer than 20 minutes in the first place.

If you go watch cinematic compilations for certain expansions, some are literally less than an hour long.

I gave tons of examples as to why WoW and WC3 had extremely poor writing, not simple and average. I think it's more accurate to say that at the time of consuming it, you were probably simple and average. Maybe too young to know better, charitably, and possibly uncritical enough even now.

But to clarify - I'm not saying it's better now. I'm not even saying it's equal right now - I am saying it's worse but in service to a lot of the same values by creators that have lost their creative mojo and are no longer anywhere near adequate that people are putting on pedestals as non-harmful actors. Chris' kid's reaction to female characters was part of some female character redesigns. The tonal shift for the lighter part of Mists was connected to him watching ATLA with his children (albeit a great show that even manages to, gasp, align with a lot of modern political values). Diablo 3 was a fucking joke because we can't possibly have a story where we fail at absolutely everything and children die anymore. Now we're chosen one heroes born of angels and demons, baby. And that was 13 years ago. Of course it's gotten worse.

Not Warcraft, but far more influential and for what it's worth, Kentaro Miura said well before his passing that he regretted a lot of the content put into Berserk for shock value to try and stand out for itself as a manga. I personally like the direction of it, but the JRPG-esque more optimistic party of friendship is a huge departure for a lot of people as compared to the Golden Age. Creators change, my duder.

At the end of the day, it's not insecurity on my part, it's seeing a franchise and characters which I hold dear being buried into irrelevancy by a group of talentless writers who have a deep resentment towards older iterations of WoW. The issues are numerous and have been outlined many times in this thread, but ultimately I think that the argument that all of them could be pinned on stupidity alone, is disingenous, to say the least

Yes, yes, "'I'm not owned,' I insist as I slowly shrink into a corncob." We know. You are very secure and this is definitely not the sole topic of conversation you bring here.

EDIT: ...huh, that infraction surprises me, I was way more intense than you.

Still gives me the warm fuzzies, though. I don't want dissenting opinions silenced, but I do like to see inconvenience for the simple.

[Aucald]

This thread is not about Garrosh, the overall writing quality of the Warcraft franchise, or irrelevant real-world politics - it is about discussing upcoming patches to the War Within and continuing on into Midnight. Let's pivot away from derailing and irrelevant arguments and tangent conversations and return to the actual topic at hand.

[Vakir]

...on the topic of "upcoming patches to the War Within and continuing on into Midnight," how 'bout that Arcantina Garrosh quest, a piece of content explicitly in Midnight?

Whatever. I'm just disappointed I couldn't find a single quest in Arcantina that seems halfway decent. The idea of the Arcantina on paper is cool. It doesn't need to involve characters who by all rights should be big into the idea of a factional conflict or be distrustful of other races. It could be smaller characters we don't get a lot of time with fleshing out other things.

Instead, they picked all these hot button ideas and characters associated with them that shouldn't be anywhere near it.

[Avikur]

Well said! This thread has totally derailed.

So, when do we expect a beta announcement?

And if judging by the splash screen the pre patch event starts on 27 January, should we expect the actual pre patch a week earlier? - ties in with Lemix ending and gives people a week to adjust to class changes and addon changes before the event?

[Warden Shadowsong]

...on the topic of "upcoming patches to the War Within and continuing on into Midnight," how 'bout that Arcantina Garrosh quest, a piece of content explicitly in Midnight?

Whatever. I'm just disappointed I couldn't find a single quest in Arcantina that seems halfway decent. The idea of the Arcantina on paper is cool. It doesn't need to involve characters who by all rights should be big into the idea of a factional conflict or be distrustful of other races. It could be smaller characters we don't get a lot of time with fleshing out other things.

Instead, they picked all these hot button ideas and characters associated with them that shouldn't be anywhere near it.

I guess that at the end of the day, thats the thing im most bitter about. Arcantina as an evergreen content sounds amazing, a hub for characters we met in past expansions, all sharing stories and sending us on adventures? Count me in. But alas...

[Mecheon]

...on the topic of "upcoming patches to the War Within and continuing on into Midnight," how 'bout that Arcantina Garrosh quest, a piece of content explicitly in Midnight?

Whatever. I'm just disappointed I couldn't find a single quest in Arcantina that seems halfway decent. The idea of the Arcantina on paper is cool. It doesn't need to involve characters who by all rights should be big into the idea of a factional conflict or be distrustful of other races. It could be smaller characters we don't get a lot of time with fleshing out other things.

Instead, they picked all these hot button ideas and characters associated with them that shouldn't be anywhere near it.

I like the idea of the one with Crowley and Etrigg at least, two aging people worried for their kids and what they'll have to face in the future, and its always good to see how Ariokk's getting along since WoD

Just. Not Etrigg inexplicably being a Son of Lothar all of a sudden. If they alter that to just go "Yeah you and Tirion were pals, we're cool" I think folks would be happier with it

[Jaggler]

So, has anyone done the first champter of the level 90 campaign already? It should be available this week.

[Nymrohd]

I like the idea of the one with Crowley and Etrigg at least, two aging people worried for their kids and what they'll have to face in the future, and its always good to see how Ariokk's getting along since WoD

Just. Not Etrigg inexplicably being a Son of Lothar all of a sudden. If they alter that to just go "Yeah you and Tirion were pals, we're cool" I think folks would be happier with it

Again, Eitrigg was invited to spend Winter's Veil with the Sons of Lothar in a comic last year (which seems to have debuted the Arcantina itself but I don't think anyone caught it back then). He is not so much a Son of Lothar as a honorary member of their friend's circle by virtue of his new found friendship with Danath.
Also Eitrigg has no kids, no? The fact that his children died under Rend's leadership is why he dropped the false Horde and end up getting picked up by Tirion all the way up north, completely disillusioned by the Horde at that moment in his life.

[GeometryWizard]

...on the topic of "upcoming patches to the War Within and continuing on into Midnight," how 'bout that Arcantina Garrosh quest, a piece of content explicitly in Midnight?

Whatever. I'm just disappointed I couldn't find a single quest in Arcantina that seems halfway decent. The idea of the Arcantina on paper is cool. It doesn't need to involve characters who by all rights should be big into the idea of a factional conflict or be distrustful of other races. It could be smaller characters we don't get a lot of time with fleshing out other things.

Instead, they picked all these hot button ideas and characters associated with them that shouldn't be anywhere near it.

They should have just stuck to a few characters at the start with longer and more varied stories and then add 1 or 2 in the minor patches. It would be an easy win if they also used it to tell faction exclusive stories that aren't faction war stories. I looked at the Sojourner achievements for Midnight and we're getting like 16 side quest chains in every zone now while the main story only has 3 big ones. I don't think many people would notice if we had a little less giant glut of neutral side quests and a few more faction only ones. Leveling is so fast and easy anymore that you can hit level cap in the 2nd zone in a few hours so it's not like they're necessary to level

[Vakir]

That's sort of the thing and a victim of the modern game expectations of endgame ASAP. The main campaign is so darn short with side stuff if you want it because they want a meaningful fast track option for people who just want to do endgame all the time. So quests that used to be sort of mandatory to give context for the culture you're fighting in or for are on the sidelines and the soapy qualities of the main stuff stick out in terms of their pacing because there's no buffer. Games need slower or quiet moments to offset the major story beats or else nothing sticks out.

It's not unilaterally bad because it benefits someone's play preference, but something is lost with the gain.

[Nymrohd]

They should have just stuck to a few characters at the start with longer and more varied stories and then add 1 or 2 in the minor patches. It would be an easy win if they also used it to tell faction exclusive stories that aren't faction war stories. I looked at the Sojourner achievements for Midnight and we're getting like 16 side quest chains in every zone now while the main story only has 3 big ones. I don't think many people would notice if we had a little less giant glut of neutral side quests and a few more faction only ones. Leveling is so fast and easy anymore that you can hit level cap in the 2nd zone in a few hours so it's not like they're necessary to level

Yeah, far too much of the world building is on the side stories and sadly they are usually one and done; after we do them, they are never relevant again.

- - - Updated - - -

That's sort of the thing and a victim of the modern game expectations of endgame ASAP. The main campaign is so darn short with side stuff if you want it because they want a meaningful fast track option for people who just want to do endgame all the time. So quests that used to be sort of mandatory to give context for the culture you're fighting in or for are on the sidelines and the soapy qualities of the main stuff stick out in terms of their pacing because there's no buffer. Games need slower or quiet moments to offset the major story beats or else nothing sticks out.

It's not unilaterally bad because it benefits someone's play preference, but something is lost with the gain.

And there is an easy solution to that; gating something really useful but not mandatory behind the Loremaster achievement *wink, wink

[GeometryWizard]

That's sort of the thing and a victim of the modern game expectations of endgame ASAP. The main campaign is so darn short with side stuff if you want it because they want a meaningful fast track option for people who just want to do endgame all the time. So quests that used to be sort of mandatory to give context for the culture you're fighting in or for are on the sidelines and the soapy qualities of the main stuff stick out in terms of their pacing because there's no buffer. Games need slower or quiet moments to offset the major story beats or else nothing sticks out.

It's not unilaterally bad because it benefits someone's play preference, but something is lost with the gain.

It reminds me of a sentiment I've seen with some games lately that let you completely customize basic parameters like player speed, item drop %s, etc. I think it was Sonic Frontiers someone said that if the designers are giving you all these options they're abandoning their job to tailor an experience for you and just telling you to figure it out yourself because they don't know what the best experience is either. It feels like Blizzard is doing the same thing by making the main quest so anemic, they want us to figure out the best pacing with side quests in the mix with no indication as to which side quests are total filler and which feel like quests that were cut from the main story

The fast track for endgame players baffles me a little because they can already speed through leveling in 3-4 hours and then they just have to sit around and wait 2 weeks for their content to actually unlock

[Bozzoltank]

When do y'all think we can expect the Beta?

[Avikur]

When do y'all think we can expect the Beta?

I'm hoping next week, although I wonder if Blizz will want to wait a couple of weeks to make sure there are no major bugs, and to get the servers ready for the increased demand.

[Vakir]

The fast track for endgame players baffles me a little because they can already speed through leveling in 3-4 hours and then they just have to sit around and wait 2 weeks for their content to actually unlock

You would think so. But some of these overserious types slam on the gas just to hit non-season content to get cram for marginal upgrades or get sufficient BoEs for gold to be able to buy out competitive gear later.

And I don't even mean people whose job it is like world first types.

Hopefully Beta next week because there is no "Phase 6," but it depends if beta will be a mass invite affair like TWW or "eventually" like other times.

[Nymrohd]

You would think so. But some of these overserious types slam on the gas just to hit non-season content to get cram for marginal upgrades or get sufficient BoEs for gold to be able to buy out competitive gear later.

And I don't even mean people whose job it is like world first types.

I think the worst part of it is, side quests used to integrate decently with the main story; there were clear moments that led you to three other places in the map. Chronologically it made sense for them to be completed between main story steps. They have moved well away from that where these quests are completely divorced from the main story and that story has a much faster pacing that very much demands your attention, leaving those quests to be done only after completing it.