The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Nymrohd]

Yeah, the new philosophy looks weird with DF talents, which were created because back then POE was king and dethroned diablo temporarily, and PoE has that kind of talent tree, nothing like the one in diablo 3 which is the one wow took in MoP.

I think history is repeating itself and we will circle back to MoP talents. I mean, current talents are mostly bloat and both new players and veterans just copy whatever they find in their guide. It's impossible to keep up with that much information if you try to play more than one class and it looks like hell to maintain for devs.

Hero talents are an extra layer of bloat and they could just be normal talents or built in in the class for the most part.

And who cares about having levels without gaining anything when the true game is the endgame? (and has been for + 10 years). With the ammount of turbo leveling events and boosts, not even new players are actually spending much time leveling.

They took two expansions to manage and make the class trees interesting and now they are replacing half the talents with passive bloat +% to spell talents straight from Vanilla. Because the new paradigm does not need these talent trees and we'd probably be better off back with MoP trees.

[Darkarath]

Yeah, the new philosophy looks weird with DF talents, which were created because back then POE was king and dethroned diablo temporarily, and PoE has that kind of talent tree, nothing like the one in diablo 3 which is the one wow took in MoP.

I think history is repeating itself and we will circle back to MoP talents. I mean, current talents are mostly bloat and both new players and veterans just copy whatever they find in their guide. It's impossible to keep up with that much information if you try to play more than one class and it looks like hell to maintain for devs.

Hero talents are an extra layer of bloat and they could just be normal talents or built in in the class for the most part.

And who cares about having levels without gaining anything when the true game is the endgame? (and has been for + 10 years). With the ammount of turbo leveling events and boosts, not even new players are actually spending much time leveling.

I honestly don't think that there is a point in leveling in WoW anymore.

The problem is to create a substitute for such system that keeps a feeling of progression, because gear is clearly not enough in that regard.

They took two expansions to manage and make the class trees interesting and now they are replacing half the talents with passive bloat +% to spell talents straight from Vanilla. Because the new paradigm does not need these talent trees and we'd probably be better off back with MoP trees.

Exactly.

Back when they introduced MoP talents the problem was that most talents were passive and that spending a talent point in +3 % intellect wasn't exciting.

We have returned to that point big time.

[Enrif]

Absolutely.

They have to find a way to keep buttons at bay. There is a problem with this approach, though, it doesn't fit at all with the current talent system, with 100 passive modifiers. Especially with the addition of Hero Talents, which make the whole system kind of ridiculous and really unwelcoming and complicated for new players.

Guess that their plan always was to make this version of the talents survive until whatever comes after TLT no matter in what state it gets there (which they're doing fine for the moment).

A return to the MoP talent system would be the best approach IMO, although then we'll have again the problem of having many levels without gaining anything.

i agree that the current talent trees are too big for more simplified classes. But i don't think we have to return to MOP as the solution.

We could trim down the trees, and instead of single point nodes, each node can have multiple points put into it to enhance the effect. Basically the vanilla talent trees.

This would a lot less complex, and people could still play around with variables, like how many point in a talent are worth it.

Or looking at Apex Talents. making every node a apex talent (not necessary 4 points though). This could cut down each talent tree substantially.

[allegrian]

I honestly don't think that there is a point in leveling in WoW anymore.

The problem is to create a substitute for such system that keeps a feeling of progression, because gear is clearly not enough in that regard.

They killed ap grinding so that's gone as well. For now it just works by forcing you to complete te campaign to unlock most endgame stuff and stuff for alts. What's the point of dinging 80 in TWW if you're not finished with the main campaign?

They could give more crests with normal questing and cool cosmetic stuff if you complete each zone like they do in remix (quests + side quests or chests, rares...).

[Cheezits]

IMO one of the reasons for the talent trees at all in DF was because the expansion didn't have enough new content besides the Dracs, Evokers and Warbands, so they needed to slap something new on the box. Hence the new talent trees and hero talents.

[Darkarath]

They killed ap grinding so that's gone as well. For now it just works by forcing you to complete te campaign to unlock most endgame stuff and stuff for alts. What's the point of dinging 80 in TWW if you're not finished with the main campaign?

They could give more crests with normal questing and cool cosmetic stuff if you complete each zone like they do in remix (quests + side quests or chests, rares...).

I'm very glad that the AP grind is gone.

Honestly I don't have a good answer for a progression system that kills leveling.

Legion Remix is pretty addictive regarding how you destroy and get new gear, but again gear is not enough and I feel that such system would get old fast.

Having a bar to fill with any activity that gives you cosmetics won't work because a lot of players don't give a shit about collectibles and we already have the Trading Post.

And even if Blizzard brings back the AP grind... For what? +0.1% of any given stat with each level? Boring.

[Khaza-R]

IMO one of the reasons for the talent trees at all in DF was because the expansion didn't have enough new content besides the Dracs, Evokers and Warbands, so they needed to slap something new on the box. Hence the new talent trees and hero talents.

I don't think that was the case at all. Simply because most people don't consider that "content" to begin with.

It was just a part of a larger effort to refresh the game after the BfA/SL. Same reason they changed professions. It was more about image than substance.

[allegrian]

They could add "expansion levels" like professions, where each expansion has its own leveling progression. So you can be level 60 in TWW but start with midnight level 1.

There could be an overall character level from 0 to 100 (which will be reached in TLT), and then they can start using the expansion levels or something like that. You cannot access endgame stuff from an expansion if you're not max level for that expansion, unless it's an old expansion.

Then they shrink the levels SL style to 60, add a full early game leveling experience in the revamped old world that stays forever (like a big tutorial) and that's it.

[Enrif]

I'm very glad that the AP grind is gone.

Honestly I don't have a good answer for a progression system that kills leveling.

Legion Remix is pretty addictive regarding how you destroy and get new gear, but again gear is not enough and I feel that such system would get old fast.

Having a bar to fill with any activity that gives you cosmetics won't work because a lot of players don't give a shit about collectibles and we already have the Trading Post.

And even if Blizzard brings back the AP grind... For what? +0.1% of any given stat with each level? Boring.

The question should be: do we even need a treadmill? This was always an issue for MMOs compared to other games. In other games you finish the story or you have a multiplayer mode that is fun. But only MMOs have a multiplayer mode that is tied to a treadmill instead.

Personally i hate grinds. The only thing that is worth grinding for is things that are permanent additions, like transmogs, mounts, pets, toys.

So, how to make a ongoing system for people who need that carrot on a stick, but are not interested in cosmetics or just playing for the fun? I guess M+ was a solution for that, an endless scaleable grind.
Perhaps that is the answer? Raid+ ? Every increasing raid difficulty for those that enjoy that. No rewards, just the challenge. It would be dead after a bit of time.

- - - Updated - - -

They could add "expansion levels" like professions, where each expansion has its own leveling progression. So you can be level 60 in TWW but start with midnight level 1.

There could be an overall character level from 0 to 100 (which will be reached in TLT), and then they can start using the expansion levels or something like that. You cannot access endgame stuff from an expansion if you're not max level for that expansion, unless it's an old expansion.

Then they shrink the levels SL style to 60, add a full early game leveling experience in the revamped old world that stays forever (like a big tutorial) and that's it.

the idea has merit, but kills the "soloing old content for cosmetics" niche that many players enjoy.

[allegrian]

The question should be: do we even need a treadmill? This was always an issue for MMOs compared to other games. In other games you finish the story or you have a multiplayer mode that is fun. But only MMOs have a multiplayer mode that is tied to a treadmill instead.

Personally i hate grinds. The only thing that is worth grinding for is things that are permanent additions, like transmogs, mounts, pets, toys.

So, how to make a ongoing system for people who need that carrot on a stick, but are not interested in cosmetics or just playing for the fun? I guess M+ was a solution for that, an endless scaleable grind.
Perhaps that is the answer? Raid+ ? Every increasing raid difficulty for those that enjoy that. No rewards, just the challenge. It would be dead after a bit of time.

- - - Updated - - -



the idea has merit, but kills the "soloing old content for cosmetics" niche that many players enjoy.

They could work around optional skips that give you instant max levels in old expansions and multiplying your power *100 when they become legacy officially.

[rainhard]

I don't think anything pointed to the Duskwood event coming out this year? It was literally just "oh hey we wanted to share we're working on this cool thing and we'll elaborate more later this year".

At worst the guy who was gonna plan the event (same guy who did remix and plunderstorm) left and the event was discarded, at best it was delayed by his absence.

[Cheezits]

At worst the guy who was gonna plan the event (same guy who did remix and plunderstorm) left and the event was discarded, at best it was delayed by his absence.

I can also see them scrapping all new game mode events besides Remixes. Easier to implement and more popular. The only issue would be players WOULD definitely run out of content after doing all of them.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

We are not getting more content, we will get the same output as the past two Roadmap expansions. The positive is the Roadmap surprises are at the level of previous expansion features, but that's about it, I don't think we're ever going to get more than what status quo is as of the past two Roadmaps.

[Hearthfinder]

I just want alternate timeline Classic+ with a name like:

WoW: Legends of Azeroth

For the story, it probably has to begin like Vanilla did. There's so much world-building going on in WC3 and its aftermath, it's hard imagining Blizzard even attempting to rewrite all that.

A cool divergence from the old timeline could probably be when Xal'atath was messing about in SoD.

Maybe Beledar is somehow involved, or some re-origination shenanigans in TLT's Ulduar.

Connecting the two games would be awesome, for example if the reason the Worldsoul can be saved is because of whatever goes on in the other timeline.

Gives you an incentive to play both.

It should give you the option to switch between old and modern assets, so you could see Elwynn with new eyes.

A bunch of poor decision-making from the original game is fixed. For example, High Elves on the Alliance, Ogres on the Horde. Night Elves and Tauren are neutral.

No immediate, world-ending threats. Instead exploring all kinds of stories for years to come. Really exploring Azeroth, without a bunch of expansion continents.

New caves and dungeons, sure. But we stay on EK and KA.

[justwatching]

Metzen wouldnt even okay anything outside of minor side characters for SoD. There is absolutely no chance any alternative timeline Classic+ shit will ever happen.

And then there is the fact that the Classic Team is still only like two dozen people and expanding that Team is also incredibly unlikely as it stands. Classics playercount is consistently declining and MS is demanding a 30% profit margin from the Gaming division.


Seasons with minor additions and rereleases is all you're gonna see on the Classic front.

[Enrif]

you know, i don't like classic or its separate rewards from retail


but, by the gods, if i could take classic and bring it on an alternate timeline into the modern day, i would do so many changes to the story

[Reive]

you know, i don't like classic or its separate rewards from retail


but, by the gods, if i could take classic and bring it on an alternate timeline into the modern day, i would do so many changes to the story

classic might actually be the future of wow. blizzard has the chance to reset everything

[Enrif]

classic might actually be the future of wow. blizzard has the chance to reset everything

i rather hope they make a "broken timeways" expansion or whole saga, that makes fixes the story.

[Hearthfinder]

Metzen wouldnt even okay anything outside of minor side characters for SoD. There is absolutely no chance any alternative timeline Classic+ shit will ever happen.

And then there is the fact that the Classic Team is still only like two dozen people and expanding that Team is also incredibly unlikely as it stands. Classics playercount is consistently declining and MS is demanding a 30% profit margin from the Gaming division.


Seasons with minor additions and rereleases is all you're gonna see on the Classic front.

Every expansion represents a bit of meddling with old lore, the fact that it's an alternate timeline is no different. WoD was one of his projects and that looked at Draenor with a whole new lens. The ultimate "what if?" scenario.

Besides we're pretty much running out of old school lore to explore. New continents on the other side of Azeroth will be cool, no doubt. But they likely have low appeal to old WoW fans, since there's hardly going to be anything recognisable about it.

But getting to explore the core source material at a deeper level would be very exciting to a lot of people.

[Ochinko]

I know most people frown at the thought but I still stand by it that an "alternate timeline" WoW starting with classic would be the ideal start for a WoW2 kind of thing to launch after the worldsoul saga.