The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Nymrohd]

My hope is that Blizzard kills all the Titans, including Azeroth. At the very least kill all the Titans and let Azeroth slumber for thousands of years after a grand sacrifice or whatever so that we don't have to worry about her anymore.

I'm mildly optimistic because it seems that they are ending the main baddies of each Cosmic Force:

- The Jailer is gone (Death).
- X'era is gone (Light).
- Sargeras will most likely be killed in TLT (Fel).
- The Titans will most likley be killed in TLT (Arcane).
- Dimensius is gone and Xal'athat will be gone in one way or another (Void).
- Even the First Ones are just a legend now.

Only Life remains, which they have been building for a while, but we don't really know much about it. It might be the only Cosmic Force that survives the WSS. Obviously all Cosmic Forces will survive, but most likely they won't survive as they are now, meaning, as world-ending threats. For example, the Arathi are there and sooner or later will be a part of the story, same with Yrel, but they are mortal beings like us, not Gods or Pantheons or any other weird thing.

Really, really hoping for a soft reset after TLT with a decent enough time-skip and a completely downgrade of ours powers with whatever justification they come with.

Oh, and I hope that Blizzard doesn't try to redeem Sargeras or Xal'athat. These two are fucking evil no matter what made them do all the shit that they have done. They have to die.

Let's kill everyone and start with just OC. Heck nuke Azeroth, we can move to a new planet.





Just because a powerful adversary exists, it doesn't mean we have to face them now, tomorrow or in ten years. Urgency is an illusion created by poor writing on their part and poor literacy on the side of the community

[Lady Atia]

My hope is that Blizzard kills all the Titans, including Azeroth. At the very least kill all the Titans and let Azeroth slumber for thousands of years after a grand sacrifice or whatever so that we don't have to worry about her anymore.

I'm mildly optimistic because it seems that they are ending the main baddies of each Cosmic Force:

- The Jailer is gone (Death).
- X'era is gone (Light).
- Sargeras will most likely be killed in TLT (Fel).
- The Titans will most likley be killed in TLT (Arcane).
- Dimensius is gone and Xal'athat will be gone in one way or another (Void).
- Even the First Ones are just a legend now.

Only Life remains, which they have been building for a while, but we don't really know much about it. It might be the only Cosmic Force that survives the WSS. Obviously all Cosmic Forces will survive, but most likely they won't survive as they are now, meaning, as world-ending threats. For example, the Arathi are there and sooner or later will be a part of the story, same with Yrel, but they are mortal beings like us, not Gods or Pantheons or any other weird thing.

Really, really hoping for a soft reset after TLT with a decent enough time-skip and a completely downgrade of ours powers with whatever justification they come with.

Oh, and I hope that Blizzard doesn't try to redeem Sargeras or Xal'athat. These two are fucking evil no matter what made them do all the shit that they have done. They have to die.

Na, Pantheons are cool. There is a reason why Diablo is such a believed franchise - hint hint, because you literally fight against the prime evils of hell and the arch angels. No one cares about random mortal mook 46342, that's boring. And Xe'ra was just a Naaru, not a Lightlord ...

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Let's kill everyone and start with just OC. Heck nuke Azeroth, we can move to a new planet.





Just because a powerful adversary exists, it doesn't mean we have to face them now, tomorrow or in ten years. Urgency is an illusion created by poor writing on their part and poor literacy on the side of the community

Yeah. Good villains are seeded in advance, like Garrosh, or N'zothi.

Not like poor Zooval.

[milkmustache]

Na, Pantheons are cool. There is a reason why Diablo is such a believed franchise - hint hint, because you literally fight against the prime evils of hell and the arch angels. No one cares about random mortal mook 46342, that's boring. And Xe'ra was just a Naaru, not a Lightlord ...

I massive disagreely. A lot of the favorite villains in this franchise have been random mortal mooks. Just because it works in Diablo doesn't mean it'll translate over to WoW. Diablo's hell vs heaven has the advantage of being massively influenced by real word religious mythology... the foundation is already built.

[Darkarath]

Na, Pantheons are cool. There is a reason why Diablo is such a believed franchise - hint hint, because you literally fight against the prime evils of hell and the arch angels. No one cares about random mortal mook 46342, that's boring. And Xe'ra was just a Naaru, not a Lightlord ...

Na Pantheons are not cool. Especially after the Pantheon of Death which was a bad joke except Denathrius.

Diablo a beloved franchise? Hmm maybe. Definitively not for the story anymore. Diablo 3 was for Diablo what SL was for WoW. D4 was an improvement, I'll give you that.

X'era was the Prime Naaru. For now, she is the highest member of the Light that we have ever known or hear about.

Let's kill everyone and start with just OC. Heck nuke Azeroth, we can move to a new planet.

The one thing that has to always be a part of WoW is Azeroth. Nobody wants another SL.

And yes, Blizzard should kill many more characters. I prefer them to die with dignity than to be turned into a shadow of what they were.

I'm just following a pattern here.

It's clear that Blizzard is severely hindering the Cosmic Forces so that they be quite for a time. For example, the Legion, when it comes back, it won't be the Legion that we used to know. It would be a much more weaker Legion. No Sargeras, no Argus to fasten their rebirth. If Blizzard wants us to take the Legion seriously again, a reset in power is necessary. Better that than whatever stupid mcguffin they come with to say: ''Look, it's the Legion ¡¡ More powerful than ever before ¡¡ Because... reasons?''

Just because a powerful adversary exists, it doesn't mean we have to face them now, tomorrow or in ten years. Urgency is an illusion created by poor writing on their part and poor literacy on the side of the community

I would say that it's about fucking time that we face the Titans. They have been a part of WoW for more than 20 years.

[Xilurm]

My hope is that Blizzard kills all the Titans, including Azeroth. At the very least kill all the Titans and let Azeroth slumber for thousands of years after a grand sacrifice or whatever so that we don't have to worry about her anymore.

I'm mildly optimistic because it seems that they are ending the main baddies of each Cosmic Force:

- The Jailer is gone (Death).
- X'era is gone (Light).
- Sargeras will most likely be killed in TLT (Fel).
- The Titans will most likley be killed in TLT (Arcane).
- Dimensius is gone and Xal'athat will be gone in one way or another (Void).
- Even the First Ones are just a legend now.

Only Life remains, which they have been building for a while, but we don't really know much about it. It might be the only Cosmic Force that survives the WSS. Obviously all Cosmic Forces will survive, but most likely they won't survive as they are now, meaning, as world-ending threats. For example, the Arathi are there and sooner or later will be a part of the story, same with Yrel, but they are mortal beings like us, not Gods or Pantheons or any other weird thing.

Really, really hoping for a soft reset after TLT with a decent enough time-skip and a completely downgrade of ours powers with whatever justification they come with.

Oh, and I hope that Blizzard doesn't try to redeem Sargeras or Xal'athat. These two are fucking evil no matter what made them do all the shit that they have done. They have to die.

Yes I also agreed that baddie Elune is the only one worth worshiping.

Na, Pantheons are cool. There is a reason why Diablo is such a believed franchise - hint hint, because you literally fight against the prime evils of hell and the arch angels. No one cares about random mortal mook 46342, that's boring. And Xe'ra was just a Naaru, not a Lightlord ...

How many Pantheons does Diablo have other than the Demons and the Angels? That's two. Not 6.

[Joshuaj]

Nothing implies Disorder has a Pantheon btw.

[GeometryWizard]

The execution is what matters most with their characters and that is where Blizzard is failing. Arthas is their best and most memorable villain and while that's almost all from Warcraft III compared to how flubbed he was in WotLK it's obvious to see why. He isn't defined by boring cosmic forces and instead his fall is a slow and consistent descent into madness followed by him calmly destroying his homeland

But it doesn't really matter if they tone down the cosmic force stuff because grounded stories are going to be hindered by how much they've sanded down the setting and made it more juvenile and safe for young children. I don't know why people expected Metzen to fix this stuff when the last stuff he was writing for Blizzard were cinematics like the Tracer and Widowmaker one for Overwatch that feels like it's aimed at 5 year olds. If they wanted grounded stories to hit again they need to be willing to have characters disagree and fight over things that aren't instantly resolvable by everyone agreeing to just hold hands in a therapy circle and talk it out

IMO people focused so much on how awful WoW's villains had become during the time of the Jailer that we still haven't started talking about how insanely boring and even unlikeable WoW's heroes have become and it's just as big of a problem

[COBRAstriker]

The execution is what matters most with their characters and that is where Blizzard is failing. Arthas is their best and most memorable villain and while that's almost all from Warcraft III compared to how flubbed he was in WotLK it's obvious to see why. He isn't defined by boring cosmic forces and instead his fall is a slow and consistent descent into madness followed by him calmly destroying his homeland

But it doesn't really matter if they tone down the cosmic force stuff because grounded stories are going to be hindered by how much they've sanded down the setting and made it more juvenile and safe for young children. I don't know why people expected Metzen to fix this stuff when the last stuff he was writing for Blizzard were cinematics like the Tracer and Widowmaker one for Overwatch that feels like it's aimed at 5 year olds. If they wanted grounded stories to hit again they need to be willing to have characters disagree and fight over things that aren't instantly resolvable by everyone agreeing to just hold hands in a therapy circle and talk it out

IMO people focused so much on how awful WoW's villains had become during the time of the Jailer that we still haven't started talking about how insanely boring and even unlikeable WoW's heroes have become and it's just as big of a problem

Cosmic threats are fine, if done well. Like Legion did. So far there haven't been any epic and big moments like seeing Argus in the sky for the first time or Sargeras' sword in Silithus. Again, the rule of cool is completely absent. The void doesn't feel like a real threat. I would also be down for more Vanilla style questing. If they somehow manage to make quests similar to the Draenei heritage quest or the Blue dragonflight quest then maybe. But I don't trust them considering how much they have neutered and feminized the setting

[Nymrohd]

IMO people focused so much on how awful WoW's villains had become during the time of the Jailer that we still haven't started talking about how insanely boring and even unlikeable WoW's heroes have become and it's just as big of a problem

So very true. I will say, I like Anduin. I do not like how everyone else acts around Anduin, but I like his character in a vacuum. Everything I've seen of Arator feels like an author's moralizing insert. He sounds like he escaped from Veilguard. Alleria has no actual character, Turalyon is Alliance's Sadfang but without the animation budget. I have some hopes for Bob. Orweyna is a painful retread on the plucky young precocious and rebellious woman that I assume will replace her authority figure in Harrandar's story.

[Joshuaj]

Also, fwif, BRD hc had 0 new rewards, not even an achievement. And hc items are crap for your mains, so people had no reasons to run the raid outside of once on normal for the achievement and quick catch up gear for new alts. Maybe timewarped badges? Back than we swam in them and couldn't spend them on much, as the timewalking vendor refreshs came after the anniversary.

Not sure if "hc only guilds" did it as part of their weekly routine though? At the end of the day, hopefully Blizzard learned that a difficulty needs good cosmetic rewards, otherwise no one cares for it. People don't run harder difficulties "because they like it harder", but for unique stuff.

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Yeah and as I said, you actually got nothing out of it besides crap gear. No clue why they didn't atleast add an achievement for hc that gives a mount or something.

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You mean, 1 boss with 4-5 encounters, like Deathwing or N'Zoth but on crack?

Otherwise it would be a waste to give Sargeras a raid where you are done in like 15 minutes lol.

I was thinking a lil more like Dimensius tbh.

Phase 1 would be Sargeras's avatar, where we easily drain his health and whatnot.

Phase 2 would be the real Sargeras, where we battle adds defending him while he's throwing stuff at us.

And Phase 3 would be us battling a weakened Sargeras, resulting in his defeat (not demise).

[milkmustache]

IMO people focused so much on how awful WoW's villains had become during the time of the Jailer that we still haven't started talking about how insanely boring and even unlikeable WoW's heroes have become and it's just as big of a problem

It's a symptom of the same situation, but you're absolutely right. I agree with @Nymrohd, I still like Anduin and have high hopes for him.

The biggest issue is that these leads don't get flaws aside from "stubbornly tried to do the right thing too hard". And they all get that same flaw. They all have the same character. There isn't any development past their racial culture and class culture, and it's a serious oversight that leads to the world feeling a little bland.

It wouldn't be as big an issue if they didn't fully commit to the rotating main character campaign style of storytelling since BFA/Shadowlands. Which I'm fine with them committing to if they could write interesting characters, but every time the opportunity comes up it just sort of peters out. I have hopes for Lor'themar, but I'm not expecting much. I like what they're doing with Gorgonna in the fixed Garrosh quest, her questioning what drives a leader to that level in the focus of her own leadership over the Warsong, but how often will she be featured?

It can be frustrating when there's pockets of genuine characterization, and I just wish they would commit to something even if it doesn't work, rather than be too timid.

[JDBlou]

I'm still sort of banking on Sargeras being an ally of convenience. It would make sense to wrap up all of the original Warcraft story in a giant bow to have us fight him though.

I wonder if a one boss raid for him would work though? I love the idea, picturing fights like Onyxia, but Sargeras would be the massive epic conclusion. I'm worried it'd feel a little stunted by running somewhere, killing a few NPCs and then hitting Sargeras of all people.

But it could always be done properly. God, I hope they use the sword as a prop in an epic way.

I think they will attempt to have their cake and eat it too, we'll fight Sargeras and have him as our ally of convenience. I predict him to be the final raid boss of 13.1

Titans probably won't keep him flitting about the Seat of the Pantheon, that feels like a disaster waiting to happen. So maybe they take him to Mardum: the prison world that was created by Sargeras prior to his becoming the Fallen Titan to hold all the demons he killed.

Classic jailer goes to his own prison, converted to contain Sargeras by the titans. We'll fight numerous demon bosses recaptured/imprisoned there, titanic keepers etc culminating in the last two fights: Illidan and then Sargeras.

Illidan after being convinced by head trauma reluctantly frees Sargeras. Sargeras also gets introduced to the negotiator known as physical violence. Illidan becomes his warden in a parallel to Maiev and Illidan and we take both of them and go on our merry way to go beat the snot out of some titans.

[Ochinko]

IF we are to fight sargeras, I like what someone said a couple pages ago, have one raid thats only sargeras, but its multiple different boss fights. Not neccessarily each body part but different fights to ultimately defeat him.

Edit: Found the quote:

I want a 1 boss raid in TLT where we fight Sargeras. That's all I want to see.

[Joshuaj]

IF we are to fight sargeras, I like what someone said a couple pages ago, have one raid thats only sargeras, but its multiple different boss fights. Not neccessarily each body part but different fights to ultimately defeat him.

Edit: Found the quote:

I was thinking something like Dimensius, but I wouldn't mind it if was a multi-boss raid with different versions of Sargeras for us to fight.

Boss 1: Avatar of Sargeras (We make our stand against the Dark Titan, and he begins by "humoring" and "testing" us with his avatar).

Boss 2: The Dark Titan's Wrath (Sargeras reveals his true form, and we battle 2 bosses on different platforms (or 1 boss on 1 platform, idk) while the Titans try to restrain him in the background. He's throwing objects at us in the background).

Boss 3: Sargeras the Destroyer (We weaken him with Azeroth's worldsoul power, he shrinks, and we get to defeat the Dark Titan himself for the first time in cosmic history).

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That, or make these phases, idk. Either way, TLT without a Sargeras fight would feel underwhelming ngl.

[Mecheon]

That is very true.
Still, I will argue that the important bit is whether Isle of Fangs and a potential Ula'tek raid is the only thing in 12.1.

Not going to be surprised when 12.1 is Isle of Fangs and the devs completely ignore Stratholme and all of that exciting stuff though.

It sure is being set up for that, if you've seen the ZA story

Frankly I don't see Stratholme being exciting at all, compared to a new place. We cleared Stratholme out decades ago and caused its destruction back in Wrath.

[Kiivar86]

It sure is being set up for that, if you've seen the ZA story

Frankly I don't see Stratholme being exciting at all, compared to a new place. We cleared Stratholme out decades ago and caused its destruction back in Wrath.

Yeah unless there's some massive changes in there for some reason, its very much a "been there, done that" several times over.

[Sondrelk]

Yeah unless there's some massive changes in there for some reason, its very much a "been there, done that" several times over.

It is however a set piece location that players will absolutely resonate with, in an expansion that was (rightly or wrongly) billed as the long awaited world revamp expansion.
Ending the expansion with only two of the launch zones being known locations we are actually returning to is a bit of a buzzkill for those that want a world revamp in any form. And really, seems about as weak as you could go without needing to even say revamp at all.

[Mecheon]

It is however a set piece location that players will absolutely resonate with, in an expansion that was (rightly or wrongly) billed as the long awaited world revamp expansion.
Ending the expansion with only two of the launch zones being known locations we are actually returning to is a bit of a buzzkill for those that want a world revamp in any form. And really, seems about as weak as you could go without needing to even say revamp at all.

People think every expansion is going to be the world revamp expansion until it gets revealed. This one's no different

And its perfectly fine for those people who want to tread new ground instead. Not everyone wants a world revamp expansion and to a lot of us, the very idea of a world revamp is tainted forever by Cataclysm association

I would sacrifice a world revamp easy for instead a new area based on ancient lore (Ula'tek dates back to the RPG) and maybe an explanation as to the giant serpent in Zul'drak (there's a lot of speculation they're connected). Going back to Strathholm is just going back somewhere I cleared out a decade ago and doesn't have anything new to offer me.

[Enrif]

Boss 1: Avatar of Sargeras (We make our stand against the Dark Titan, and he begins by "humoring" and "testing" us with his avatar).

Avatar of Sargeras was already used in Tomb of Sargeras, which we destroyed. I don't think it would make sense to face that again. though that never stopped Blizzard from recycling old bosses

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Without knowing further context, wasn't that already what one had to assume? Living in Silvermoon and/or Dalaran until the Third War, then possibly evacuated to Stormwind because he was still a child, then back to Silvermoon and/or Dalaran. He was a kid from a noble line, travelling to other cities/nations and shaking hands with its leaders would've been normal for him.
Haven't read the excerpt, but nothing you shared sounds like any contradiction.

There is a weird subset of people who want to paint Arator all blue, because his parents are "alliance" heros, though they forget that Silvermoon was part of the alliance when these two became heros, and wasn't hostile to the alliance for a long time of Arators upbringing. It is a really weird ignorance of Silvermoons past with the alliance, just so they feel justified with blood elves in the horde. These are more weird people than people who want tinkers or high elves.

[huth]

Avatar of Sargeras was already used in Tomb of Sargeras, which we destroyed. I don't think it would make sense to face that again. though that never stopped Blizzard from recycling old bosses

An avatar was. Avatars aren't unique, an entity can have many of them. And the one we fought was damaged.