The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Vakir]

This is Jale Rivermane erasure.

Hey, with that much conviction and urgency, how could I not beware the deep places of the Earth?

[Limayria]

Nuance belongs in nuanced stories. There have been moments of brilliance here and there (for me, the entire BfA promotion between the cinematic and the Warbringer shorts was just magic) but they are the exception to the rule.
Warcraft is fast food, not a seven course experience. And fast food can have bold flavours and large portions and do its job for a reasonable price (well, before inflation it could). I think Warcraft works best when it is Rule of Cool with camp performances. Sadly it's been a while since we have had that. Undermine was pretty decent but it did lack edge at the end. The rest of TWW was just tepid as was the entirety of DF.

As for masculinity in Warcraft. Modern society has not figured out what to do with masculinity; what version of masculinity can actually be celebrated and is not problematic. I'd also argue that little about the "girlboss" culture is actually feminine; it is so often masculinity performed by females.

- - - Updated - - -

Btw, was the TWW beta launch this bad? I sincerely cannot remember and I think I would if it was this bad. It's not a problem; this is what beta is for. But I think I'll wait for the weekend to even try playing.

I'm honestly really surprised we haven't gotten any major story beats focusing on fatherhood as that seems like an area where we could really have some more traditional masculine "energy" without getting too close to anything controversial I think. Though that might have some to do with the struggles of introducing new younger characters

It's also weird seeing characters like the winter queen or the kyrian lady (kyresta I think?) as "girl bosses" when the leaders of the other two covenants were men (Primus, prince) and honestly having the lesder of the valkyar faction not being a woman would have been strange lmao. And a queen is also pretty fitting for a fae court though I'd have much preferred them to have had canonically third gendered fae characters using neopronouns. I wonder if that would have gone over better with players lol


Id hazard a guess considering even games like deltarune struggle with the community understanding a character being non binary but I do also feel like a more fantasy/cosmic story with a character being explicitly a third gender with a different set of pronouns (ze/zer fae/faer etc)


I definitely agree that the Warcraft mainline story is lacking ambition it used to have but it's strange to me that people act like it's significantly worse, are we really acting like the actual character butchery of TBC/Wotlk is better than what we currently have? I love the vibes of TBC but the actual writing is abysmal there just was so little we could fill in the gaps with better things

[Hearthfinder]

The Haranir root travel ability seems weird. It takes you to Harandar, then you manually need to travel to an area of the map that counts as being near to one of the world trees' roots. This changed the ability into a slow teleport to said tree.

How is this in any way near as effective as the DID mole machine, for instance? Fewer locations, more cumbersome, and pretty slow. It's way more efficient to just HS to Stormwind and use a portal.

It gets weirder because if the implication is that you can't travel using the roots unless you're near them, then why would you be able to travel to Harandar without roots in the first place?

There seems to be some type of spiritual thing going on, but it still seems weird to me.

It'd probably be better if it was just a green mole machine, honestly. A giant root appears whereever you are, and you choose a location associated with world trees, including Harandar but perhaps also the Great Trees such as the one in Duskwood.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I'm honestly really surprised we haven't gotten any major story beats focusing on fatherhood as that seems like an area where we could really have some more traditional masculine "energy" without getting too close to anything controversial I think. Though that might have some to do with the struggles of introducing new younger characters

Wows not really lacking fatherhood story’s, off the top of my head there’s,

Varian
Magni
Tirion
A night elf One in ashenvale
A night elf one in Krasarang Wilds
Voss dealing with her scarlet dad
Genn in the worgen heritage quest
Velan but not really
Durotan in Wod feels like it should count
Bolvar
And now the upcoming stuff with Turalyon

[Darkarath]

Turns out the new Helf flight mount is actually a blue dragonhawk, AKA the sensible choice, and not the old hippogryph.

https://xcancel.com/TheRedShirtGuy/s...068831093079#m

Good change.

Now record again those horrible Blood Elf voicelines, Blizzard. They're just embarrasing.

I tried Devourer DH. Sadly not my thing. I like simple specs but this is too shallow. Warglaives look terrible with this spec. We need a scythe ASAP. Hopefully they will improve it somehow.

BTW problems with the Talent system are starting to show IMO. The capstone talent in the DH class tree is... Darkness. A defensive... That we always had... Another capstone talent increases Glide speed...

I really doubt, and hope at this point, that this talent system doesn't survive TLT, especially with Hero Talents. It could be a mess in TLT, honestly.

[Jaggler]

Good change.

Now record again those horrible Blood Elf voicelines, Blizzard. They're just embarrasing.

I tried Devourer DH. Sadly not my thing. I like simple specs but this is too shallow. Warglaives look terrible with this spec. We need a scythe ASAP. Hopefully they will improve it somehow.

BTW problems with the Talent system are starting to show IMO. The capstone talent in the DH class tree is... Darkness. A defensive... That we always had... Another capstone talent increases Glide speed...

I really doubt, and hope at this point, that this talent system doesn't survive TLT, especially with Hero Talents. It could be a mess in TLT, honestly.

I don't really see how that is an issue with the talent system itself.You could argue that the playcement of certain spells could be changed, but that's not a failure of the talent system itself.

[Enrif]

Or you know, everyone gets to keep their own places and we keep some uniqueness in the game.

the people get to keep their places in the lore, for gameplay purposes is opens up. And WoW is still a game that needs players to be able to interact with other players. So, opening up stuff is more important than isolating playerbases

[Nymrohd]

BTW problems with the Talent system are starting to show IMO. The capstone talent in the DH class tree is... Darkness. A defensive... That we always had... Another capstone talent increases Glide speed...

I really doubt, and hope at this point, that this talent system doesn't survive TLT, especially with Hero Talents. It could be a mess in TLT, honestly.

The issue is that they want to have their cake and eat it. They want to add more points without increasing the power level and complexity so they simply turn other talents to passives. And the reshuffle is half assed because by their own admission they seem to have decided on this massive revamp AFTER Gamescom.

[allegrian]

The talent trees are too complex for their new simplicity and no addons and no external info mindset. They should go back to the simple legion talents or simplify most of the tree to only a bunch of choice routes.

They added the complex talents in the complexity era of DF, after POE's success. Even as a seasoned wow player, trying to understand talent trees from classes I play ocasionally feels daunting.

[Limayria]

Good change.

Now record again those horrible Blood Elf voicelines, Blizzard. They're just embarrasing.

I tried Devourer DH. Sadly not my thing. I like simple specs but this is too shallow. Warglaives look terrible with this spec. We need a scythe ASAP. Hopefully they will improve it somehow.

BTW problems with the Talent system are starting to show IMO. The capstone talent in the DH class tree is... Darkness. A defensive... That we always had... Another capstone talent increases Glide speed...

I really doubt, and hope at this point, that this talent system doesn't survive TLT, especially with Hero Talents. It could be a mess in TLT, honestly.

Devourer is lacking a lot due to abandoning it's war glaives, the glide speed talent actually feels really good in practice and remember we'll have more points eventually for the trees so it's not as bad as it seems

Some of the DH stuff is really whack tho, like havocs glaive tempest capstone feels terrible to use needing your last slash of blade dance to hit 4 targets

[Darkarath]

The talent trees are too complex for their new simplicity and no addons and no external info mindset. They should go back to the simple legion talents or simplify most of the tree to only a bunch of choice routes.

They added the complex talents in the complexity era of DF, after POE's success. Even as a seasoned wow player, trying to understand talent trees from classes I play ocasionally feels daunting.

Yeah this talent system is doomed IMO. Especially with Hero Talents, which were a failure from the beginning. I understand that they have to add something, but come on, add something sustainable. Apex Talents make much more sense long term. Every time I have to read a wall of text to understand what a Hero Talent does I roll my eyes, and practically all of them are passive. Imagine how bad has to be for a new player.

And some here believed that Hero Talents were a masterful addition and that they would add a new Hero Talent Tree for each class every expansion. The things that one has to read...

Devourer is lacking a lot due to abandoning it's war glaives, the glide speed talent actually feels really good in practice and remember we'll have more points eventually for the trees so it's not as bad as it seem

The glide speed talent by itself is not the problem. The problem is that it is a capstone talent with practically no relevance in PvE or PvP. Do we really need a talent like that? Make it baseline. Most talents should be added to the base skill, then give us a few options which really matter, more or less like the MoP talent system.

And if we have enough talent points to almost get every talent in the Class Tree... What is the point? Another clear sign of the failure of this talent system IMO.

Blizzard changed the old talent system for the MoP one because most talents were not fun and passive, and we are right there again.

[Dracullus]

Talents most likely will survive TLT and lvl 100, then will be time for level squish and new or refreshed system.

Personally I like talent trees, but would prefer SINGLE talent tree where different paths would define your spec.

[Darkarath]

Talents most likely will survive TLT and lvl 100, then will be time for level squish and new or refreshed system.

Personally I like talent trees, but would prefer SINGLE talent tree where different paths would define your spec.

I want to be clear, I don't want to shit on Blizzard for trying new things.

I think that the current iteration of talents was worth a try and were cool. Hero Talents clearly fuck the entire system, though.

Maybe a smaller talent tree with more Apex kind talent would work. But again, we already had that with the old talent system and eventually it won't be sustainable.

[allegrian]

Yeah this talent system is doomed IMO. Especially with Hero Talents, which were a failure from the beginning. I understand that they have to add something, but come on, add something sustainable. Apex Talents make much more sense long term. Every time I have to read a wall of text to understand what a Hero Talent does I roll my eyes, and practically all of them are passive. Imagine how bad has to be for a new player.

And some here believed that Hero Talents were a masterful addition and that they would add a new Hero Talent Tree for each class every expansion. The things that one has to read...



The glide speed talent by itself is not the problem. The problem is that it is a capstone talent with practically no relevance in PvE or PvP. Do we really need a talent like that? Make it baseline. Most talents should be added to the base skill, then give us a few options which really matter, more or less like the MoP talent system.

And if we have enough talent points to almost get every talent in the Class Tree... What is the point? Another clear sign of the failure of this talent system IMO.

Blizzard changed the old talent system for the MoP one because most talents were not fun and passive, and we are right there again.

Blizzard keeps ciclying through the same mistakes and solutions. For example, the new DF flying carries all the problems for level design and immersion of TBC flying but even worse as it's much faster. They tried to fix that in wod

[huth]

Blizzard keeps ciclying through the same mistakes and solutions. For example, the new DF flying carries all the problems for level design and immersion of TBC flying but even worse as it's much faster. They tried to fix that in wod

The problem with static flying was never that it is fast. It's how it allows you to just circumvent all obstacles. Dynamic flight is more limited in that regard.

Besides, WoD also showed they can't put the genie back in the bottle.

[Jaggler]

I want to be clear, I don't want to shit on Blizzard for trying new things.

I think that the current iteration of talents was worth a try and were cool. Hero Talents clearly fuck the entire system, though.

Maybe a smaller talent tree with more Apex kind talent would work. But again, we already had that with the old talent system and eventually it won't be sustainable.

I'm pretty sure the talent system will stay until TLT at least, with a similar upgrade like in midnight (another row of hero talents and more points in class and spec tree.)
At the end of TLT we'll be 100 again and i think it would be a good point to do another level squish which would also trim down the talent trees again (with an uncertain future for hero specs)

[Darkarath]

I'm pretty sure the talent system will stay until TLT at least, with a similar upgrade like in midnight (another row of hero talents and more points in class and spec tree.)
At the end of TLT we'll be 100 again and i think it would be a good point to do another level squish which would also trim down the talent trees again (with an uncertain future for hero specs)

Yeah I agree.

They won't change them until the WSS is over.

After TLT though, it would be very surprising if we don't get a new iteration on talents.

[Nymrohd]

Yeah I agree.

They won't change them until the WSS is over.

After TLT though, it would be very surprising if we don't get a new iteration on talents.

I would expect a level squish after we hit 100 again and that very much necessitates a talent revamp
Though in their current state, you could just remove all the passive nonsense and get decent trees again. Hero Talents could just become Apex talents instead. I cannot see them removing at least those home talents that alter your archetype (e.g. Dark Ranger)

[Darkarath]

I would expect a level squish after we hit 100 again and that very much necessitates a talent revamp
Though in their current state, you could just remove all the passive nonsense and get decent trees again. Hero Talents could just become Apex talents instead. I cannot see them removing at least those home talents that alter your archetype (e.g. Dark Ranger)

Yeah another of the atrocities of Hero Talents.

Want to play MM Hunter? Well fuck you because now you either play Dark Ranger or Sentinel. MM is not a thing anymore.

That happens with all specs. I can already see it. After TLT the new talent system will try to sell us Hero Talents as new regular talents. They have done this plenty of times.

[Jaggler]

I would expect a level squish after we hit 100 again and that very much necessitates a talent revamp
Though in their current state, you could just remove all the passive nonsense and get decent trees again. Hero Talents could just become Apex talents instead. I cannot see them removing at least those home talents that alter your archetype (e.g. Dark Ranger)

There's certainly a lot of fat that could easily be trimmed off for a level squish, especially with the Midnight puining adding talents quite a few talents like "gain X% stat" or "gain Y% damage type".
I personally don't hope that we go back to MoP-SL talents, i vastly prefer the talent trees we have now, so i'm a bit biased in that regard i guess. But there is certainly room for mprovement especially with the ever growing number of systes within the tree (we went from two trees to two trees, a mini-"tree" and an extra, independet set of talents.