The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Hitei]

Yeah another of the atrocities of Hero Talents.

A glorified trinket visual effect is an atrocity? They don't turn you into a night elf or undead. They're a few spells with distinct effects--effects that people literally ASKED FOR because the original iteration was more mild and they (players) really wanted it to stand out.

[Darkarath]

A glorified trinket visual effect is an atrocity? They don't turn you into a night elf or undead. They're a few spells with distinct effects--effects that people literally ASKED FOR because the original iteration was more mild and they (players) really wanted it to stand out.

Exactly Hitei, you got right to the bottom of the problem.

Hero Talents should have always been about OPTIONAL visual customization for our classes. That would have been a very cool system IMO, and I hope that after TLT that is the approach that they take with Hero Talents.

[Jaggler]

Exactly Hitei, you got right to the bottom of the problem.

Hero Talents should have always been about OPTIONAL visual customization for our classes. That would have been a very cool system IMO, and I hope that after TLT that is the approach that they take with Hero Talents.

Yeah, i agree, there are a lot of hero talents which would work better as some sort of "class skin" (Dark Ranger, Sentinel or Sunfury come to mind), especially with their heavy focus on one particular race and it them being unavailable for one of the specs of the class.

I think the talent system is decent now and certainly workable in TLT as well, but it sure would need a look at in a post-TLT world.

[Hitei]

Exactly Hitei, you got right to the bottom of the problem.

Hero Talents should have always been about OPTIONAL visual customization for our classes. That would have been a very cool system IMO, and I hope that after TLT that is the approach that they take with Hero Talents.

I'm not saying that wouldn't be a better system, but like, it's a bit melodramatic to call it a pretty non-offensive system that works perfectly fine an atrocity, or claim it's a failure and doomed because it lacks impact or in a handful of alternate cases adds somewhat incongruent spell effects just like trinkets or various borrowed power elements throughout expansions have.

Similarly I think it's a bit silly to compare current passive talents with pre-MoP passive talents. Stuff like "makes glide go 40% faster", or even a few % leech is not on the same level as dumping 5 talent points into 1% crit chance or having to spend 5 talent points to make a main filler cast spell not 3 seconds of cast time.

[Darkarath]

I'm not saying that wouldn't be a better system, but like, it's a bit melodramatic to call it a pretty non-offensive system that works perfectly fine an atrocity, or claim it's a failure and doomed because it lacks impact or in a handful of alternate cases adds somewhat incongruent spell effects just like trinkets or various borrowed power elements throughout expansions have.

I think that you overestimate how much players enjoy a certain theme. For example, I won't play Vengeance DH in Midnight. Because the one Hero Talent Tree that didn't bother me too much was Fel-Scarred and it kind of fit well with becoming a Demon. Well fuck me because that's not an option anymore. I have Aldrachi Reaver which I absolutely despise and Annihilation which doesn't fit the theme at all. I just don't see my DH launching meteorites. I'm not a mage.

That happens in way or another with almost any Hero Talent Tree. They should have always been optional visual customizations, not game-changing MANDATORY powerful talents.

That's just my opinion, of course. Happy if you enjoy the system.

[Hitei]

I think that you overestimate how much players enjoy a certain theme. For example, I won't play Vengeance DH in Midnight. Because the one Hero Talent Tree that didn't bother me too much was Fel-Scarred and it kind of fit well with becoming a Demon. Well fuck me because that's not an option anymore. I have Aldrachi Reaver which I absolutely despise and Annihilation which doesn't fit the them at all. I just don't see my DH launching meteorites. I'm not a mage.

That happens in way or another with almost any Hero Talent Tree. They should have always been optional visual customizations, not game-changing MANDATORY powerful talents.

That's just my opinion, of course. Happy if you enjoy the system.

It's not about you or me. I think you overestimate how much the average player cares or is put off by adjustments.

Yeah, some hero talent might ruin a spec for the occasional player. So might some artifact weapon ability in Legion, or any of the 150 times they've changed how eclipses work for balance, or the removal of shadow orbs, or the introduction of holy power or some tier set in a given expansion forcing players to go with the fire build for enhance, or number tuning in an expansion making sindragosa's dominant, or literally any even minor rework of any spec.

Hero talents aren't special. They are just the branding for TWW's version of adding new spells/changing specs a bit. Much like artifact weapons were just a fancy package for Legion's version of changing classes and adding new spells. If hero talents didn't exist at all, we still would have gotten a whole bunch of mechanical changes or most specs and larger reworks for various specs and it could have just as easily added something like Aldrachi just in the form of a new ability or high tuned talent which you would still hate. Or maybe it wouldn't have changed at all and someone else who really likes Aldrachi now would have continued finding the spec unplayable.

This is just something that happens every expansion. And every expansion some people are going to be put out and some people get a bunch of fun new options and most players just take the changes as they are and keep playing their class.

[Jaggler]

It's not about you or me. I think you overestimate how much the average player cares or is put off by adjustments.

Yeah, some hero talent might ruin a spec for the occasional player. So might some artifact weapon ability in Legion, or any of the 150 times they've changed how eclipses work for balance, or the removal of shadow orbs, or the introduction of holy power or some tier set in a given expansion forcing players to go with the fire build for enhance, or number tuning in an expansion making sindragosa's dominant, or literally any even minor rework of any spec.

Hero talents aren't special. They are just the branding for TWW's version of adding new spells/changing specs a bit. Much like artifact weapons were just a fancy package for Legion's version of changing classes and adding new spells. If hero talents didn't exist at all, we still would have gotten a whole bunch of mechanical changes or most specs and larger reworks for various specs and it could have just as easily added something like Aldrachi just in the form of a new ability or high tuned talent which you would still hate. Or maybe it wouldn't have changed at all and someone else who really likes Aldrachi now would have continued finding the spec unplayable.

This is just something that happens every expansion. And every expansion some people are going to be put out and some people get a bunch of fun new options and most players just take the changes as they are and keep playing their class.

I think the issue is that Hero specs with a clear thematic inluence introduce a pain point that frankly doesn't need to exist, especially in a world where we have glyphs etc.

Is it a massive issue? Not really, but i certainly understand the frustration some people have.

[Hitei]

I think the issue is that Hero specs with a clear thematic inluence introduce a pain point that frankly doesn't need to exist, especially in a world where we have glyphs etc.

More than (old) survival randomly getting black arrow with none of the rest of the class leaning in a dark ranger direction? Or rogues suddenly getting ninja shuriken? Or balance druids suddenly getting sun-themed spells?

Like I said, I agree that there are a handful of hero talents that are incongruent with their spec's general aesthetic and kit. I just, again, don't see how this is a "hero talents" issue. This happens constantly, hero talents are just what they are called this time and even if we hadn't gotten them, or had gotten an alternate better system where they were solely optional cosmetics... we almost certainly would still have gotten those regular mechanical changes and reworks and themes would be pushed in weird directions (see: the sudden introduction of scythe stuff to DKs).

[allegrian]

The problem with static flying was never that it is fast. It's how it allows you to just circumvent all obstacles. Dynamic flight is more limited in that regard.

Besides, WoD also showed they can't put the genie back in the bottle.

Legion was a success, considered one of the best expansions and it also limited flying to a future patch + pathfinder.

The most beloved patch in TWW also has no flying.

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More than (old) survival randomly getting black arrow with none of the rest of the class leaning in a dark ranger direction? Or rogues suddenly getting ninja shuriken? Or balance druids suddenly getting sun-themed spells?

Like I said, I agree that there are a handful of hero talents that are incongruent with their spec's general aesthetic and kit. I just, again, don't see how this is a "hero talents" issue. This happens constantly, hero talents are just what they are called this time and even if we hadn't gotten them, or had gotten an alternate better system where they were solely optional cosmetics... we almost certainly would still have gotten those regular mechanical changes and reworks and themes would be pushed in weird directions (see: the sudden introduction of scythe stuff to DKs).

I think the dev team stopped caring about class fantasy during TWW. You can see that in hunters and how they changed the pack leader hero talent to have specific pets (rexxar pets) instead of using your stablr pets, which is one of the main, most unique, and beloved mechanics for hunters: taming and collecting pets.

They alsp shoved the eagle master fantasy to MM, using an eagle that's not from your pet collection.

And then of course if you're a hunter now you're limited to be Rexxar, a night elf or a dark ranger elf. It sucks.

[Lady Atia]

Legion was a success, considered one of the best expansions and it also limited flying to a future patch + pathfinder.

The most beloved patch in TWW also has no flying.

The please what?

Undermine was dogshit with the car thingy lol.

[Hitei]

I think the dev team stopped caring about class fantasy during TWW. You can see that in hunters and how they changed the pack leader hero talent to have specific pets (rexxar pets) instead of using your stablr pets, which is one of the main, most unique, and beloved mechanics for hunters: taming and collecting pets.

This isn't really a TWW thing. Stampede and various iterations of dire beast also used to do this.

I think that the falconer shtick they added is thematically appropriate to Hunters, but it is also a good example of what I am saying. Even if they hadn't added Dark Ranger or Sentinel, ordinary class changes do stuff like suddenly making you a falconer. It's not an issue of hero talents being anything special, it's just the nature of class changes.

[allegrian]

The please what?

Undermine was dogshit with the car thingy lol.

The overall opinion is that undermine is the best part of TWW

[Lady Atia]

The overall opinion is that undermine is the best part of TWW

No it's defo not lol. You like it the most, but you can't speak for everyone. In my guild literally no one liked it thanks to the shitty car. The goblin theme is also something that most people either hate or like.

The raid also was ok, but defo not better than Palace (Queen Mythic was thousand times better than lame Gally) or the Manaforge (Dimensius alone is miles ahead any of the Undermine bosses, and the other bosses are also super fun besides maybe the one with the walls).

I mean, even for just open world stuff Karesh was MILES ahead of Undermine. No one cares for claustrophobic goblin trash.

[allegrian]

No it's defo not lol. You like it the most, but you can't speak for everyone. In my guild literally no one liked it thanks to the shitty car. The goblin theme is also something that most people either hate or like.

The raid also was ok, but defo not better than Palace (Queen Mythic was thousand times better than lame Gally) or the Manaforge (Dimensius alone is miles ahead any of the Undermine bosses, and the other bosses are also super fun besides maybe the one with the walls).

I mean, even for just open world stuff Karesh was MILES ahead of Undermine. No one cares for claustrophobic goblin trash.

The mythic raiding community is niche so their opinion is far from the general one. You can see many feedback posts on forums, reddit and twitter saying they were very happy with undermine and it looked like a high effort patch, while the contrary happenned with kharesh, outside of Dimensius himself being a cool boss.

[SunspotAnims]

Undermine was one of the highlights of TWW for me. Unique zone, I liked the car, great music, but I wish the raid was entirely set in the Gallagio. I guess the underground technological city zones are always destined to have half their main dungeon/raid just be an instanced version of the overworld zone.

The questline that you get after Gallywix dies, the one where you work with a lawyer to determine who gets ownership of the Gallagio was surprisingly good in my eyes. It's basically just a side quest, and it was written intentionally to have no actual mystery as to how it would end, but it was consistently full of jokes that I enjoyed. I do wish completing it actually gave access to the overworld Gallagio.

[Sondrelk]

Undermine was one of the highlights of TWW for me. Unique zone, I liked the car, great music, but I wish the raid was entirely set in the Gallagio. I guess the underground technological city zones are always destined to have half their main dungeon/raid just be an instanced version of the overworld zone.

The questline that you get after Gallywix dies, the one where you work with a lawyer to determine who gets ownership of the Gallagio was surprisingly good in my eyes. It basically just a side quest, and it was written intentionally to have no actual mystery as to how it would end, but it was consistently full of jokes that I enjoyed. I do wish completing it actually gave access to the overworld Gallagio.

It's a shame that the post-raid questline is the only one that really makes you feel like you are playing a Goblin questline. Not just a questline with Goblin NPCs.

It was wacky, funny, and really had fun with how insane Goblin can be, while still keeping them being competent within their insanity.


Undermine is definitely the zone I think I will remember the most from TWW. And I am going to chalk that almost entirely up to it not having flying.
TWW never felt like it was designed with flying in mind like DF did. If anything, quite the opposite. Both Hallowfall and Azj'Kahet feels like the designers assumed the zone would be explored on the ground, and flying was an afterthought the developers only added because they didn't want to fight the players on it again.

[Khaza-R]

I mean, even for just open world stuff Karesh was MILES ahead of Undermine. No one cares for claustrophobic goblin trash.

This is just a bad take per usual. Nothing about K'aresh was satisfying. It all felt half-assed and underwhelming except the raid. And even that was pretty mid outside a few encounters.

[Lady Atia]

This is just a bad take per usual. Nothing about K'aresh was satisfying. It all felt half-assed and underwhelming except the raid. And even that was pretty mid outside a few encounters.

And it was still better than Undermine? Should you tell something lol.

Also, raids and dungeons are the two things that matter. Open World "content" is dead after 2 weeks anyways.

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It's a shame that the post-raid questline is the only one that really makes you feel like you are playing a Goblin questline. Not just a questline with Goblin NPCs.

It was wacky, funny, and really had fun with how insane Goblin can be, while still keeping them being competent within their insanity.


Undermine is definitely the zone I think I will remember the most from TWW. And I am going to chalk that almost entirely up to it not having flying.
TWW never felt like it was designed with flying in mind like DF did. If anything, quite the opposite. Both Hallowfall and Azj'Kahet feels like the designers assumed the zone would be explored on the ground, and flying was an afterthought the developers only added because they didn't want to fight the players on it again.

Tbf, it does seem like they just enabled flying from the start because of feedback. Even the Isle of Dorn quests feel like they aren't really designed for flying untill you reach that quest where you have to use your flying mount to fight (and I'm not even sure if that was part of the campaign or came with max level?).

[allegrian]

It's a shame that the post-raid questline is the only one that really makes you feel like you are playing a Goblin questline. Not just a questline with Goblin NPCs.

It was wacky, funny, and really had fun with how insane Goblin can be, while still keeping them being competent within their insanity.


Undermine is definitely the zone I think I will remember the most from TWW. And I am going to chalk that almost entirely up to it not having flying.
TWW never felt like it was designed with flying in mind like DF did. If anything, quite the opposite. Both Hallowfall and Azj'Kahet feels like the designers assumed the zone would be explored on the ground, and flying was an afterthought the developers only added because they didn't want to fight the players on it again.

It's clear that az kahet was suposed to be a suramar style city with stealth, guards and stuff, but it was abandoned as a concept when they decided to let you fly. You can still get many items and mini quests about rumors and stuff for it, but it's all quite useless with flying.

[Kiivar86]

It's clear that az kahet was suposed to be a suramar style city with stealth, guards and stuff, but it was abandoned as a concept when they decided to let you fly. You can still get many items and mini quests about rumors and stuff for it, but it's all quite useless with flying.

Yup. The whole pheromone system points heavily to it, too.