The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Joszef Kiprich]

Jan is a Dutch and German male name. Short for Johan or Johannes. The equivalent of John, Juan, Jean and Gianni.

[Vakir]

It's not just other full-blooded elves who may see age differently. Faol called Arator "young" which gave me pause but then he called him a "boy" and I officially rolled my eyes into the back of my head.

[Ersula]

It's not just other full-blooded elves who may see age differently. Faol called Arator "young" which gave me pause but then he called him a "boy" and I officially rolled my eyes into the back of my head.

Because in the Second War Arator was a baby & Faol was already an older man. Yeah Elves live a long time but this one hasn't. His comments make sense considering that's their actual difference in age.

Older people do call young adults boy. In fact its a pretty common thing in supernatural fiction. I've seen immortal characters be called boy by other immortal characters to denote they are that much older than them pretty frequently.

[Nymrohd]

Arator is not an elf though. I know they did not bother to give him a proper half-elf model, but that is what he is.

[Ersula]

Arator is not an elf though. I know they did not bother to give him a proper half-elf model, but that is what he is.

Half elves use the regular blood elf model. The human models with elf ears have a much smaller percentage of elf heritage. The Arathi with the pointy ears are like 1/8th & 1/16th elf.

Though this presents an interesting implication for the Arathi Empire. Were there any full elves that founded the faraway homeland? If so they'd probably be still alive. That would prove interesting societal implications, though there's a good chance only half-elves were part of the founding excursion.

[Vakir]

Because in the Second War Arator was a baby & Faol was already an older man. Yeah Elves live a long time but this one hasn't. His comments make sense considering that's their actual difference in age.

Older people do call young adults boy. In fact its a pretty common thing in supernatural fiction. I've seen immortal characters be called boy by other immortal characters to denote they are that much older than them pretty frequently.

Maybe. But typically calling someone "boy" if they're freakin' 40 is intense condescension. Uther calling Arthas "lad" and "boy" when he was 24 was already loaded.

There's maybe a reasonable benefit of the doubt for it, but beyond the semantics, I'm bringing it up because I legitimately do not think they understood this character's age when they wrote him. They write around the broad role rather than the logic and universe of the story and characters.

[GeometryWizard]

The thing with Arator's story is that it's more just a tool to hammer the new handling of the Light's moral ambiguity into the player. I don't know what came first but I imagine they wanted a way to explore this and chose Arator for it and they needed to write him like someone more sheltered and naive than 15 year old MoP Anduin so he could have every character explain the moral of the story to him and the player. Now of course this also includes inconsistencies and retcons, like how the Silver Hand are described as this militant order that only cares about finding evil to fight and little for the plight of the average citizen when one of the first vanilla paladin class quests is to get cloth to be sewn into blankets for the needy. Or how Turalyon's fight with Doomhammer makes no sense now that they've made him go mad with wrathful Light rage but also spares him for some reason

50% of modern WoW story is just the writers trying to convince you why you should like their new story that feels like it's shoddily slapped on top of the old, until an expansion or two down the line when it gets totally changed again and another 50% of the story is spent trying to convince you why the new new story is better. That's why people don't like how they're handling the moral ambiguity of the Light because rather than draw on what's already been established they're going back to established lore and events and rewriting them to fit the narrative. It makes trying to anticipate or look forward to anything pointless because barely anything is foundational

Also their obsession with recycling Scarlets over and over is just getting strange now we really should have been done with them after Cata and MoP

[Vakir]

Yeah. The Light always had a sense of moral ambiguity in terms of its wielded power being framed in belief, I don't think that's really new, but this isn't the way.

"Wow, Uther used a healing kit?!" FFS, I get that game mechanics aren't canon and are just a broad expression of a character's abilities, but it doesn't change that Uther's main ability kit in HotS is healing and support. Arator is saying he grew up with stories about these people but he's surprised at the most basic and rudimentary things about them that I could've told you without even knowing the characters. He should already be familiar with Uther's focus on preservation, protection, and compassion first before retribution because it's literally one of the most consistent defining traits. It's like his third line in WC3, about vengeance and the orcs. The famous draenei paladin most cherished a meditation crystal from the culture famously known for their crystals and discipline? WhooOoooOa. Maraad wasn't of the Lightforged that are more martial and zealous.

It's indeed pretty damn heavy handed. But it also fails to really convey much to the player or give them a different perspective, because what it's supposed to be subversive in revealing truths about the Light...are things that don't even feel like lessons or revelations. They feel like recaps, similar to "THAT SWORD WAS AIMED AT SOMEONE! BUT WHO?!" It just makes Arator look like not just yet another indecisive softy, but a fucking moron.

[Ersula]

Yeah. The Light always had a sense of moral ambiguity in terms of its wielded power being framed in belief, I don't think that's really new, but this isn't the way.

"Wow, Uther used a healing kit?!" FFS, I get that game mechanics aren't canon and are just a broad expression of a character's abilities, but it doesn't change that Uther's main ability kit in HotS is healing and support. Arator is saying he grew up with stories about these people but he's surprised at the most basic and rudimentary things about them that I could've told you without even knowing the characters. He should already be familiar with Uther's focus on preservation, protection, and compassion first before retribution because it's literally one of the most consistent defining traits. It's like his third line in WC3, about vengeance and the orcs. The famous draenei paladin most cherished a meditation crystal from the culture famously known for their crystals and discipline? WhooOoooOa. Maraad wasn't of the Lightforged that are more martial and zealous.

It's indeed pretty damn heavy handed. But it also fails to really convey much to the player or give them a different perspective, because what it's supposed to be subversive in revealing truths about the Light...are things that don't even feel like lessons or revelations. They feel like recaps, similar to "THAT SWORD WAS AIMED AT SOMEONE! BUT WHO?!" It just makes Arator look like not just yet another indecisive softy, but a fucking moron.

I think you're in this headspace where if he mentions it it must be some huge shocking revelation....when what arator is doing is just making conversation. Like, "isn't it interesting his relic wasn't his hammer?"

[Vakir]

I think you're in this headspace where if he mentions it it must be some huge shocking revelation....when what arator is doing is just making conversation. Like, "isn't it interesting his relic wasn't his hammer?"

No, it's framed as an explicit lesson and surprising to him. But we've literally watched him use healing and absorbs. Dozens of times, even, in the intro, when I didn't need them, Arator.

"I had expected these relics to be powerful weapons. The Silver Hand was founded to wield the Light in battle!"

I can maybe take it with a dwarf caring more about a stein or something, another cliche, but Arator should have known freaking Uther, someone of "stories he'd heard since he was a child," would've taken importance in healing spells. His name's the Lightbringer, not the Skullcrusher.

(It's also having your cake and eating it too when you consider that WC circa 1996-2004 absolutely was all about the cool named weapons lore as the primary focus of characters, but that's neither here nor there)

[Nymrohd]

I'll say it again, most of Arator's experience seems to be that of a Retribution paladin who is told that if he wants to find a group faster, maybe he can try Prot or Holy and he is surprised to learn there are other specs

[Vakir]

I'll say it again, most of Arator's experience seems to be that of a Retribution paladin who is told that if he wants to find a group faster, maybe he can try Prot or Holy and he is surprised to learn there are other specs

...while having played the game for 21 years with multiple top 20 guilds in the world and having somehow never heard anyone say "Prot" or "Holy" or having been in a group with either of them.

It's rough.

[Super Dickmann]

Oh well I guess we have an actual Retcon there. I will say, I would not have minded if Eitrigg stayed as he was introduced in the comic; as Danath's plus one. But the fact that he got the title and he gets agency to speak for the Sons in certain moments of the quest was just plain stupid. Not as stupid as Arator saying that the Sons of Lothar and the Dark Horde are stuck in the Second War when the former have fully moved on but at least Arator's journey is a questline I can stomache on account of Faol being his handler and constantly talking sense (Even though most of said sense flies over him). And having now done these quests in beta I don't see how Turalyon would ever get villain batted given the level of instant remorse he has for hitting his moron son when he was about to kill the 12.1 raid boss. He will probably pick up a shield and die protecting a lot of people and back when Blizzard had a budget, he'd get a cool sad human cinematic for his sacrifice. But now he'll get an in game one at best.

Also love how Faol's actual message is "You know you can spec Protection or Holy right? You don't have to only play Retribution"

Arator is a member of the Retri Discord and therefore has low IQ. The idea that he could fill a more needed role in a group at a higher premium shakes him to his core, which is why despite being older than I am he shakes at the idea that he could do anything but hit people he disagrees with or that his powerset could be used by people who don't 1 to 1 share his belief system.

Re: Turalyon, he might get saved by the format and by the writers' fear of killing any Alliance character. There's two patches in this. The last patch must be Xal'atath, and Ula'tek will get at least a dungeon, which means he either gets a raid or a dungeon for his story to culminate. In either case, he won't come out as a villain, he's been treated much more gently by the narrative than any of the designated scapegoats who might as well start twirling mustaches and tying virgins to railroad tracks the moment the gig is up.

The Amani are the best part of this expac from what I've seen so far. Jarra and Jan got solid voice acting (though the idea of naming a male troll Jan is crazy to me. Also every time he brags about how the Amani can make it on their own, I keep telling him "Sure Jan" and he doesn't get it). I just can't help but think how much better the zone would be if Talan'ji or Rata (who is by the Sunwell already), Rokhan, Bwemba, Vanira or even Zen'tabra was Jarra's hash ura instead of Liadrin. That said, Liadrin manages to have Arator's character without being grating about it.

I'll say this now up until we're treated this discount Highmountain/Ohn'ahran story. The elves should not miraculously be nice, they should have been forced to cooperate with the Amani via one of the troll factions, i.e by the Zandalari as the only good playable troll faction. Not doing this has torn holes in the plot like canyons, like Liadrin being the main quest NPC alongside the guys who killed her parents or Zul'jarra being harsher towards Zul'jin, her grandfather who until he died fought to liberate and reclaim her home, than any elf.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I can maybe take it with a dwarf caring more about a stein or something, another cliche, but Arator should have known freaking Uther, someone of "stories he'd heard since he was a child," would've taken importance in healing spells. His name's the Lightbringer, not the Skullcrusher.

Its worse then that, Arator is old enough to have met Uther and as the son of a famous paladin you’d have expected him to if for no other reason the order would likely want to honor his dad.

[Nymrohd]

I'll say this now up until we're treated this discount Highmountain/Ohn'ahran story. The elves should not miraculously be nice, they should have been forced to cooperate with the Amani via one of the troll factions, i.e by the Zandalari as the only good playable troll faction. Not doing this has torn holes in the plot like canyons, like Liadrin being the main quest NPC alongside the guys who killed her parents or Zul'jarra being harsher towards Zul'jin, her grandfather who until he died fought to liberate and reclaim her home, than any elf.

Liadrin is a proper lesbian with Jarra, asking her about her feelings every ten minutes. Apparently the blood knights also offer seminars in psychoanalysis.
She also shares exactly what Zul'jin did with her but that comes right on top of Akil'zon confirming that Zul'jin and Malacrass very much violated the loa's trust so she understands who is to blame for everything going to shit.
Also, that mohawk is insane and I want it for my own trolls.

The biggest issue for me is Harandar. Not that it is bad; it's great. But it should have been part of an Emerald Dream expansion with the Haranir just being night elf druids.

[Super Dickmann]

Liadrin is a proper lesbian with Jarra, asking her about her feelings every ten minutes. Apparently the blood knights also offer seminars in psychoanalysis.
She also shares exactly what Zul'jin did with her but that comes right on top of Akil'zon confirming that Zul'jin and Malacrass very much violated the loa's trust so she understands who is to blame for everything going to shit.
Also, that mohawk is insane and I want it for my own trolls.

Is it ever addressed why the loa didn't support Zul'jin in the existential war for his race when they did in the Troll Wars, or are him and Malacrass firmly in Snidely Whiplash territory?

[Nymrohd]

Is it ever addressed why the loa didn't support Zul'jin in the existential war for his race when they did in the Troll Wars, or are him and Malacrass firmly in Snidely Whiplash territory?

More like Malacrass did to the Loa something similar if weaker than what the Drakkari did.

[Super Dickmann]

More like Malacrass did to the Loa something similar if weaker than what the Drakkari did.

Is it explained why they resorted to this?

[Nymrohd]

Is it explained why they resorted to this?

I cannot say, the lag is crazy, I am just doing the main quests. It might be there on a side quest or a lore item. Seems like they mostly did it for power. It's not like the elves were pressing the borders further east or anything though, that much we do know. It seems whatever they did straight up killed Jan'alai like the Drakkari loa

[GeometryWizard]

Harandar and the haranir in general are impossible for me to make sense of. On the one hand it's like every bad habit of SL lore supercharged into one zone and race. It feels like a completely different universe and setting and all mentions to existing lore and races are met with sneering and disdain and how the haranir are actually the chosen and most important race ever

On the other hand it's hard to believe the writers don't realize how useless and incompetent the haranir come off as. They spend all their time writing stories about their own self-importance but nothing they do actually matters to anything the player cares about (Azeroth itself). They can't solve any crisis that comes up on their own. When Teldrassil burned the rootwarden assigned to it wasn't even there and had to be told by other people it was burning. The other writing around them is also so half-assed it feels like a parody like humans and orcs in Elwynn and Ashenvale are now just being randomly teleported into Harandar with no explanation and that's the excuse for why they join the factions

It's the kind of thing where if the writers had earned a shred of benefit of the doubt and didn't constantly showcase how incompetent and lazy they were I could understand it as portraying how deeply flawed they are but instead it's almost easier to view it as the writers doing an unintentional parody of themselves and how they address existing lore