The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[KOREAN DAVE]

And every time they cross the Amani pass they DO become quest mobs.

People compare the High Elves to colonizers or invades. They were neither. They were refugees. People expect grace for the Warsong because they could not know that those woods belonged to the Night Elves and those trees housed their wisps because they also were refugees and the Night Elves killed first and expected to not face resistance (though they lose my sympathy when they drink the fel cool-aid as soon as the battle turns against them). Heck people keep telling me here how the original Alliance should have granted land to the orcs instead of putting them in camps. Why are the High Elves never afforded the same sympathy?

It's just weird, performative nonsense from people who love projecting.

[Vakir]

Oddly enough, Vordrassil is absent from the "leaked" Northrend map, no? It would be submerged.

Either way, something played up as that ominous being Yogg would be a bit anticlimactic. We clapped him 10 expansions ago by TLT's time.

[Cheezits]

Oddly enough, Vordrassil is absent from the "leaked" Northrend map, no? It would be submerged.

Either way, something played up as that ominous being Yogg would be a bit anticlimactic. We clapped him 10 expansions ago by TLT's time.

We are still missing a fifth old god wrapped in roots, per Chronicle. The culprit could be whatever that is. Especially if Vordrassil's roots are cut off from both Harandar and Northrend (with Vordrassil being dead at the top).

[Eldryth]

Funny how different the reaction to Haranir would be if they just replaced every single utterance of "Haranir" with "Dark Troll".

I don't think that would have gone over well. I really can't see Troll fans being happy with them making an Elf race and calling them Trolls (especially if they were to use it as the mysterious Troll race that people have always been curious about), and as someone who actually loves the Haranir, they're definitely way more Elf than Troll. They're very closely tied to Night Elven story and themes, not Trolls; visually they look like Night Elves with animal parts, with no Troll traits apart from (optional) tusks that look completely different from all Troll races' tusks and the option to have colorful hair; and they're even labeled "Wild Elves" in the files (all the Haranir decor is labeled as such), making it extra clear that they were designed as a form of Elf (along with the devs calling them Elf-like when revealing Midnight). They're a blatant take on the classic fantasy Wood Elves archetype that Night Elves used to fill but drifted away from somewhat.

Which is the one reason I feel like they're the one case where adding a race that's clearly a substitute for an existing one is actually justified- while other additions have been ostensibly "better" (but actually just boring) variants of races we currently have, Haranir cover a niche that Night Elves haven't filled well since their very early days. And while I'd love for the Night Elves themselves to go back to filling that role themselves, it really wasn't likely to even happen given how long we've had their current versions. The only way were were ever going to get those primal, isolationist, wild nature Elves who live in living trees back was with a new race like this, and I'll take it.

Did you play the beta? Because the zone storyline gets into how they found out that Aln'hara/Azeroth was gone, and they had only heard an echo- so their entire journey to Harandar was pointless. in fact they went insane and started killing each other until someone kept the peace, so all their "rules" keeping them underground are just cope to keep them sane

They aren't the chosen ones, they just are Dark Trolls that prefer Azeroth to Elune (and paid the price for it with isolation).

Former Dark Trolls, just like Night Elves, but you're right that they're not chosen or important at all. Which is a good thing. Trying to pass them off as objectively better Night Elves, and more important than the known races, would have been the same kind of awful worldbuilding that Shadowlands had (making groups like the Val'kyr and Scourge be based on more boring substitutes).

Though after playing through Harandar, I actually have to wonder if this was actually the original plan for them, because their story really doesn't line up with the premise that was set up for them in Dragonflight. Elun'ahir didn't come up at all, and instead of being the mysterious protectors of an older and better World Tree, they became a normal race living in the roots of the existing ones. Maybe Harandar got pushed so far back so that they could take it back to the drawing board- rewrite their story to get rid of their "chosen one" aspects and replace Elun'ahir with stuff that connects to the rest of the setting.

[Cheezits]

Though after playing through Harandar, I actually have to wonder if this was actually the original plan for them, because their story really doesn't line up with the premise that was set up for them in Dragonflight. Elun'ahir didn't come up at all, and instead of being the mysterious protectors of an older and better World Tree, they became a normal race living in the roots of the existing ones. Maybe Harandar got pushed so far back so that they could take it back to the drawing board- rewrite their story to get rid of their "chosen one" aspects and replace Elun'ahir with stuff that connects to the rest of the setting.

I think its 50/50 on Elun'ahir being a super sekrit world tree, because that fits right up Danuser's alley, but it could have been a red herring and may have something to do with Azeroth's uprooting. Or Y'shaarj. Or they are one and the same, if uprooting Y'shaarj caused Azeroth to come out of the Cradle by accident.

Maybe Elun'ahir is a secret codeword for Azeroth, told in storybook form?

[Ersula]

Though after playing through Harandar, I actually have to wonder if this was actually the original plan for them, because their story really doesn't line up with the premise that was set up for them in Dragonflight. Elun'ahir didn't come up at all, and instead of being the mysterious protectors of an older and better World Tree, they became a normal race living in the roots of the existing ones. Maybe Harandar got pushed so far back so that they could take it back to the drawing board- rewrite their story to get rid of their "chosen one" aspects and replace Elun'ahir with stuff that connects to the rest of the setting.

That didn't really change. They already established Elun'ahir's roots spread throughout the entire planet: The actual tunnels that make up Harandar is from the uprooted Elun'ahir. The whole point of Elun'ahir is that its gone; it's absent.

I think its inevitable that when we get to the coreway, it's going to be entwined with Elun'ahir's remaining roots. In fact they might even establish that the reason the other worldtrees were only able to grow, per the twigs of g'hanir were able to take root and become world trees is because the saplings tapped into the original roots of Elun'ahir: In which case, the roots of all the other world trees only exist because they were originally part of Elun'ahir. (Some trees can in fact take root from just a twig but they have greater success if they are grafts to an existing tree, which is what I'm proposing here.)

I'm putting my money on Sargeras' Sword, The Coreway & The Roots of Elun'ahir all meet in the same spot in the southern Kalimdor, since the uprooted crater is already suspected to be Ungoro, as Eonar promised to watch over Elun'ahir's void & Ungoro was her primary base of operations. It's seeming more and more likely that the Climax of The Last Titan will be the same as what was originally intended by Danuser for The War Within: A showdown in the coreway for Azeroth's soul, except Metzen saw the opportunity to spread the conflict out into three expansions so they could update many older regions.

[COBRAstriker]

It sucks from the bottom to the top. But the Arathi quest was - to reiterate - written by a dude.

Might be the case, but someone directed the VAs for those lines, someone else worked on the cinematics, someone else worked on gameplay and rewards, someone else played through the entire thing (I hope), someone else approved it and then someone else said 'yep, ship it'. It's why I stopped blaming whoever the 'face' of WoW's writing tends to be, be it Afrasiabi, Danuser or Metzen and I'm convinced that the entire team needs to be changed

I also randomly found this clip with an interview with a WoW dev which is very revealing

https://youtube.com/shorts/rHIX7II5II0

"Something that he (Metzen) feels really passionate about is that it's not his story, it's something that he's worked with those (quest and narrative) teams and created together"

So for those of us that hoped for Metzen's stories, it ain't happening. It's stories by committees

[Ersula]

Might be the case, but someone directed the VAs for those lines, someone else worked on the cinematics, someone else worked on gameplay and rewards, someone else played through the entire thing (I hope), someone else approved it and then someone else said 'yep, ship it'. It's why I stopped blaming whoever the 'face' of WoW's writing tends to be, be it Afrasiabi, Danuser or Metzen and I'm convinced that the entire team needs to be changed

I also randomly found this clip with an interview with a WoW dev which is very revealing

https://youtube.com/shorts/rHIX7II5II0

"Something that he (Metzen) feels really passionate about is that it's not his story, it's something that he's worked with those (quest and narrative) teams and created together"

So for those of us that hoped for Metzen's stories, it ain't happening. It's stories by committees

So you've decided to blame a woman no matter who actually has the final say on all creative decisions.

[Nibelheimy]

I think its 50/50 on Elun'ahir being a super sekrit world tree, because that fits right up Danuser's alley, but it could have been a red herring and may have something to do with Azeroth's uprooting. Or Y'shaarj. Or they are one and the same, if uprooting Y'shaarj caused Azeroth to come out of the Cradle by accident.

Maybe Elun'ahir is a secret codeword for Azeroth, told in storybook form?

I had always wondered if there was some sort of connection between Y'Shaaj and the world tree's. If there would of been 7 original world tree's, it would of been interesting to see if the seven heads were somehow related to or were the 7 world tree's. Alas, we have seen the sha, him in the Xal lorewalking, and only 5 original world tree's, and its not going to be that direct.

I can see maybe if Y'shaarj had gotten some tendrils into the world soul at one point when he was yanked, it pulling the world soul out of place. That could work. I could also see them using that as a total cover up, and Y'shaaj being ripped out did yada (to the worldsoul and the planet) and it was actually Aman'thul pulling Elun'ahir out that caused the damage, and they're hiding their mistake with that.

I could even see the whole 5 old gods, 5 world trees working somehow, but we have four. I am curious to see how this particular plot point resolves however. The symmetry between old gods and world trees is there, although its never really came to anything before this point.

[COBRAstriker]

So you've decided to blame a woman no matter who actually has the final say on all creative decisions.

Huh? I just said that pointing the finger to a single person is a mistake. The entire team is cooked. And frankly, it seems that nobody has a final say on creative decisions. They still write what they want, they still retcon established old stories so they can fit in their new stories. It's a systemic problem, it's not isolated to a single person

[Vakir]

For what it's worth, Cornsnake here is too cowardly to give a full breakdown of his beliefs and opinions and so took it a DM, with hilarious LinkedIn stalking producers based on prior experience and credits, despite that you can google and find completely different credentials for those same people.

And, y'know, it being a fucking producer role.

This is the intellectual juggernaut we're dealing with here. Holly Longdale, of course, as a producer, is known for personally coding Classic and making all Seasons of Discovery content herself from scratch. /s

"Something that he (Metzen) feels really passionate about is that it's not his story, it's something that he's worked with those (quest and narrative) teams and created together"

So for those of us that hoped for Metzen's stories, it ain't happening. It's stories by committees

This is literally how anyone in an artistic media with more than one person in a writer's room is going to talk about their creation in this line because it's the most common optics utilized for anything that has collaborative elements. Anything otherwise is generally seen as fucking arrogant.

Unless you're a mega-auteur, a "slap your name on everything" Kojima type, this is how you're going to frame working on something. This is why writer's rooms exist. This is why multiple writing and director credits exist. Vince Gilligan is not personally responsible for every line of dialogue in Breaking Bad, just like he wasn't personally the one behind the decision to not kill off Aaron Paul.

This was how they talked about making Blizzard stories back in 2009.

You have, literally, LITERALLY, never worked in even an amateur capacity in your life if this eludes you, let alone spent time working with other people on a large creative project.

Edited to add: Holy backpedal. No, you are not making it about the team regardless of face. You JUST talked about how women diversity hires are to blame two posts ago. You're backpedaling because you have no idea what you're talking about.

[COBRAstriker]

You don't need to be Kojima lol. Metzen wrote WC3 alone, as far as I know, and it was wildly successful. From what I gather, most people are displeased with the new stories and characters as they are on alpha/beta right now. The new cinematics are a laughing stock. I believe that there are too many people writing for a single game which is very basic fantasy at its core, with no direction. When Metzen announced his return, we, or at least I, was hoping for a return to Legion levels of stories and cinematics. That model was proven to be very successful, as well as those before it in varying degrees

It doesn't matter if Metzen says that the story will take place in Quelthalas, if the rest can shove in Harandar, Arator (it's funny that Turalyon calls him an accomplished paladin of the Silver Hand yet his entire questline is about him understanding the thing he's supposed to be capable with, the light), mischaracterizing Turalyon, Eitrigg in the Sons of Lothar and so on

Harandar and Haranir reek of SL levels of incompetence and disdain for established lore and races

Also, Holly worked for a decade+ on Everquest. Game dev is not all about coding, you should know that

[Vakir]

Nobody argued that the current content isn't lacking in quality. You need look back literally a few pages - I'm one of the biggest critics.

The problem you're failing to understand, and still failing given you missed the point of the Kojima comparison, is that most large-scale projects are collaborative and the quote you used as an alarm bell is ridiculous. Nobody puts any given creator on a pedestal in that way and it's generally looked at as producing positive optics to play up the team element of creation, especially when you're as heavily scrutinized as post-2020 Blizzard. Even with regards to WC3, nobody at Blizzard advertised or played it up as "from the visionary mind of Chris Metzen" or anything even remotely like that. Just as 2004 WoW made cute references to Furor and Tigole, but you had to really dig to understand their EQ pedigree and influence or to know who worked on Elwynn.

The Holly example was mocking you because you sent a different producer via LinkedIn stalking and complained she wasn't qualified. Her being a woman was absolutely a coincidence, I'm sure. My point is that production doesn't work that way and you're using it as an example for clear fundamental problems that are on the creative level.

Still not gonna comment on how you absolutely said this was a diversity hire issue and then denied it, huh?

[Joshuaj]

There's still something "wrong" under Vordrassil (in Northrend), and it's the reason that it doesn't appear in Harandar.



Yogg comeback incoming? Or maybe Iridikron related?

Uhm, not really. This is just an implication that Yogg-Saron's influence on Voldrassil was so devastating, it seemingly still affects the tree to this day.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, yes, the Old Gods might be dead, but their bodies are likely still active. Y'Shaarj is legit our best example of an Old God still being active, even after death.

[Vakir]

It seems really indecisive what that means, though. I could make an argument for it being way more than just body - a lot of consciousness exists for these when they want them to exist for fanservice reasons. I'd argue they went through the Old Gods way too quickly and with little fanfare.

Kind of always felt like a "have your cake and eat it too" with their presence or lack of it.

[Eldryth]

That didn't really change. They already established Elun'ahir's roots spread throughout the entire planet: The actual tunnels that make up Harandar is from the uprooted Elun'ahir. The whole point of Elun'ahir is that its gone; it's absent.

Harandar is where the roots of all the other world trees meet- Nordrassil, Teldrassil, Vordrassil, Shaladrassil, and Amirdrassil. They tell you which roots belong to which tree, and the specific trees are important in the story (you get to Harandar through Amirdrassil's roots for example). As far as I can find, Elun'ahir isn't involved at all.

Elun'ahir's roots (according to the story we had at least) survived in a crater. There was nothing about it spreading throughout the world, and the Rootlands were expected to be that crater. Maybe it still exists somewhere else, and it could certainly enter the story for real at some point, but it's not what the Haranir were "protecting".

[COBRAstriker]

Well, it is an alarm bell for me. I have no interest in more Danuserisms like Haranir or their stories which do nothing but take away from the original lore and races which people do tend to love and are invested in, and I think that it's reasonable to say that I'm more interested in the stories told by the guy who essentially created Warcraft than their new super special OCs

I only said that Blizzard has hiring quotas. The team has changed as a result of that, and as they said, they're making a WoW which they are happy to work on. Their stories. And well, this is the result. A super special OC race that's been around for tens of thousands of years and a super special zone where all the world trees come from. Nevermind the general tone of the writing. This is honestly Shadowlands levels of writing, if you can even call it that, and it's no wonder that everyone is pissed. Especially Tauren, Troll and Night Elf fans. Is it a stretch to say that I have no interest in their stories? Who does, honestly

[Vakir]

I only said that Blizzard has hiring quotas. The team has changed as a result of that

Gonna need a source on that.

Again, hiring quotas based on diversity aren't new to anything happening the post-2020 scrutiny of Blizzard. It's industry standard for where they've been for a long time. It's all internal related stuff.

You know what is new? Ballooning corporate incompetence and layoffs.

Well. New-ish.

[Scyth]

Btw has anyone found any Nightborne in Silvermoon except for Thalyssra at the top tower?

[Joshuaj]

"Metzen will remove all of Danuser's influence on the lore"

I remember when y'all said this, and I remember telling y'all it ain't happening. Look who's right again