The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Joshuaj]

Either way, maybe the First Ones simply made the Elemental Ring after the Patterns creation, but idk...due to Iridikron's stuff and whatnot, I wouldn't be shocked if the Worldsouls were of elemental origin, which thus makes me wonder if there was a Progenitor named "Element".

There also seemingly has to be something that exists outside the pattern, so that's why I theorize 8.

Though, I also theorize that Azeroth is the last remnant of an entity that prepares the Progenitors, but idk if that's a bit more of a stretch or...

[Vakir]

Unpopular take on the Mary Sue Gary Stu label but I've always felt it's more meaningful to throw that out if it's a character that completely consumes the story in importance than if they have flaws, no matter what the original definition was. The OG Mary Sue was explicitly a Star Trek OC inserting herself into the cast dynamics.

Anduin could have halitosis, chronic IBS, suck in combat, be allergic to water, and cry at the drop of a hat and still could warp the entire narrative around his morality.

Meanwhile...I dunno...Toph Beifong comes to mind as a cast member with no arc compared to her team mates, hypercompetent, and has no real flaws that aren't treated as endearing character quirks, but nobody cares because they're an inoffensive and entertaining supporting role.

No amount of character flaws fixes Med'an's heritage and sudden importance feeling fabricated and no amount of failures will change that Alleria is becoming exhausting as the center of the world, just as Thrall grew to be no matter how many times he looked sad and doubted himself.

[Cheezits]

Either way, maybe the First Ones simply made the Elemental Ring after the Patterns creation, but idk...due to Iridikron's stuff and whatnot, I wouldn't be shocked if the Worldsouls were of elemental origin, which thus makes me wonder if there was a Progenitor named "Element".

I think it's far more likely that, similar to the Dream, the Firelands etc are actual natural realms of energy and the Titans bound the elemental lords into pocket realms within each. Instead of actually creating elemental worlds. The titans can manipulate more than they can create.

[Vakir]

The ordering done by the Titans becomes more villainous and dire the more existing systems we know were at least partly impacted, not less.

It's not much of a "vast conspiracy" if it's all the work of some external 7th/8th/12th/Mega Ultimate Super God Blue Mode 25th force designed to create more serial escalation to make it less possible to care than ever because things have become battle Shonen.

Let's make the current pool of the cosmology actually interesting and coherent before we start bringing in other stuff.

[Cheezits]

The ordering done by the Titans becomes more villainous and dire the more existing systems we know were at least partly impacted, not less.

It's not much of a "vast conspiracy" if it's all the work of some external 7th/8th/12th/Mega Ultimate Super God Blue Mode 25th force designed to create more serial escalation to make it less possible to care than ever because things have become battle Shonen.

I mean, both the Dream and Elemental Planes don't seem to be nefarious, as they are for the safety of Azeroth, unless the Dream was made in tandem with the Shadowlands to power some ultimate fuck you weapon or something. It's the Shadowlands and the Worldsoul kidnapping/forcefeeding (plus, likely, forced transformation of Dragons) that are the cruel and questionable things. Plus Reorigination.

And even then, some would argue that as cold and sterile as they are, the Shadowlands are better than one big Maw Hell which is kind of hinted as what the original Shadowlands were.

[Vakir]

I mean, both the Dream and Elemental Planes don't seem to be nefarious, unless the Dream was made in tandem with the Shadowlands to power some ultimate fuck you weapon or something. It's the Shadowlands and the Worldsoul kidnapping/forcefeeding that are the cruel things.

And even then, some would argue that as cold and sterile as they are, the Shadowlands are better than one big Maw Hell which is kind of hinted as what the original Shadowlands were.

Talking more of control than the moralizing of the actions themselves.

Order exerted on things not innately made that way can be argued to be sus.

Getting all anime on labels like free will or some other 7th thing being an actual existential energy doesn't feel right for WoW at this time when it's already a narrative mess.

This is not a story to imitate Dynamis or something equivalent

[Cheezits]

Getting all anime on labels like free will or some other 7th thing being an actual existential energy doesn't feel right for WoW at this time when it's already a narrative mess.

That has been the schtick for Azeroth in general for a few expansions now. "Azeroth = free will so don't fuck with her." Free Will may even be the secret seventh thing, though with some better name, if it's not just Spirit.

They aren't going to villain bat the titans entirely, not when characters like Tyr and Eonar exist, but their tampering with the world soul? Absolutely, and it should be villainized, without even GETTING into what it's analogous of if they truly locked her in a cage and are turning her into something she's not.

Now, there's a chance they may make it morally ambiguous- I think there's a possibility that yanking out Y'shaarj pulled Azeroth out of the Cradle by accident (explaining why Azeroth Elun'ahir and Y'shaarj are three things noted to be taken from the underground), and they are using the prison pod to heal her... while also forcibly turning her into a Titan.

[Super Dickmann]

Again, it's like arguing that there's a natural arc where TLT Iridikron being on the Titans' side and helping order other proto-dragons makes sense because "he accepts the offer he denied the first time and sees the benefit in guiding others through being ordered". It doesn't. There's no skipping here, it's just poor writing.

This argument (and the Argent Crusade/Cenarion one) remains just as asinine as it was the first time, but you do actually hit a point actually worth talking about here:

The Forsaken story is carving out a place when life hates you and advocating for undead. Voss' story is a foil. You, the rotbrains and Voss are all raised together. YOU are the Forsaken proxy and Voss and the Rotbrains are two groups who, in contrast, reject the Forsaken path and ideals.

You're entirely right that you, as the player rolling a Cataclysm Forsaken, are the rep of that faction. Tirisfal, as a zone, serves to introduce you to this and as one of the first quests you get, you're the vessel through which you try to sway the NPCs to join the Forsaken as they are in Cataclysm, i.e free-willed undead agents of Sylvanas fighting the living, scarlets and left-over scourge, practicing necromancy at scale for their new world regional order. In the quest, you get one guy who agrees immediately and buys into the story, despite the Forsaken having killed him in Vanilla (who I'm pretty sure never appears again), one guy who categorically rejects it (Redpath and the Rotbrains) and one character who's focused on, and that's Lilian. Lilian's focused on because she's ambiguous, she could join, that's the premise of the quest and of the zone in general, and she could refuse. The steps she goes through are analogous to the Forsaken as a race.

She is first raised against her will and is disgusted at herself and in denial, when you show her what she is, she tries to off herself. Then, she returns to the living, who also reject her. Much like the Forsaken in general, there's no way back. So, like with the Forsaken in general, rather than accepting her death at the hands of the living, she opts to continue existing out of spite and goes about fighting two antagonist groups - the Scarlets and the Scourge for revenge. She is against necromancers, but guess what, so were you back when you didn't have in Vanilla as a Forsaken. The description above could just as readily be used for the race as a whole, as that's the whole point.

You make the case, hell, you base the gist of your entire argument of Calia over Voss with the idea that Voss contradicts herself by being against Sylvanas before on account of necromancy, but being her ally later, but no such contradiction exists because Voss is never against Sylvanas or the Forsaken and takes no action or comment about them at any point. The Executors consider her to be an ally in practice in Tirisfa, despite her empty commentsl and by the time WPL rolls around, not only expect her to continue destroying the Scarlets on their behalf, but do not envision any interference from her despite the war plan for Andorhal involving necromancy at a massive scale. That's because the Forsaken's mass raising still leaves people wtih free will and the capacity to pursue their aims, as stated outright from their intro on, and as can be intuited with the fact that mindless enslaved undead and those who run them were historically their biggest enemy. Lilian acts on that will and is opposed to mindless undead and those who produce them, her comments about necromancers relate to these, if Blizzard meant for them to be interpreted as hostility to the Forsaken, they readily would have as they did with other undead opposed to Sylvanas (Judkins, Darkmar, Godfrey, Stillwater), but when putting her in the zone that was meant to lead up to her ending in Scholomance, they purposefully didn't put her at odds with the Forsaken and didn't even try to associate her with the same type of undead v. undead characters like the Ebon Blade.

The next step after achieving her revenge on the Scarlets and the Scourge then, in the analogy to the Forsaken at large, and to serve the premise of the very first quest is for her to decide whether to go on or not and ultimatley to go for the former, recommitting herself to an existence that has made her aims possible and has made her abler than she was in life, thus transfering it to others, taking up the role for others that the player, as a representative of the Forsaken, started her out on. This initial choice never happens, only the endpoint does, hence why the story is contrived. But the end point of the arc follows logically from the premise of the quest, the character's race, role, aims and actions, going full circle.

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One can only hope that there trying to make her and Arator look unreasonable and stupid on purpose. The writing quality is bad but if they think these two are reasonable it’s far worse.

I think Alleria is meant to come across as retarded, since we know she goes void later. AGain, interpreting this as it's meant to (a family and personal drama torn apart by larger than life forces), this step of teh story is when the family fails to get over their personality flaws, with first Alleria taking a terminal dip and needing to be rescued and later presumably Turalyon. They'll come together again in the finale.

[Cheezits]

This line from beta now makes a lot more sense:

[Super Dickmann]

Now, there's a chance they may make it morally ambiguous- I think there's a possibility that yanking out Y'shaarj pulled Azeroth out of the Cradle by accident (explaining why Azeroth Elun'ahir and Y'shaarj are three things noted to be taken from the underground), and they are using the prison pod to heal her... while also forcibly turning her into a Titan.

I don't trust Blizzard not to go overboard, as their handling of the Titans was godawful in TWW compared to its relative nuance in DF, but if they wanted to make it more ambiguous, then instead of Aman'thul repeatedly yanking out things he didn't like out of the world, they could squash it all down to one event. They see the world is fucked, Eonar plants the tree over the hole to seal it up as a gift, the tree gets corrupted by Y'shaarj and Aman'thul then tears out the tree, Y'shaarj and the wound, then sticks the World Soul, near death after being violated by tentacle monsters for umpteen milennia into its new confines, aiming to purge it of 'contaminants' and turn it into something he knows works (i.e part of his court).

[Joshuaj]

I think it's far more likely that, similar to the Dream, the Firelands etc are actual natural realms of energy and the Titans bound the elemental lords into pocket realms within each. Instead of actually creating elemental worlds. The titans can manipulate more than they can create.

When I say "elemental ring", I mean the literal elements that shape the physicality of the cosmos.

But what you said only furthers why I think this way.

[Cheezits]

They see the world is fucked, Eonar plants the tree over the hole to seal it up as a gift, the tree gets corrupted by Y'shaarj and Aman'thul then tears out the tree, Y'shaarj and the wound, then sticks the World Soul, near death after being violated by tentacle monsters for umpteen milennia into its new confines, aiming to purge it of 'contaminants' and turn it into something he knows works (i.e part of his court).

I mean I think it is highly implied that these things are all the same as there's only one missing mystery tree (Un'goro's tree, shown in the Nightmare which happens to be full of Sha-looking creatures... and go figure, so does the Rift of Aln!) but what do you mean the world was fucked? What made the original hole?

Wouldn't it just be- Eonar just plants a world tree in Un'goro (likely due to some scheme with Elune), it gets corrupted by Y'shaarj, Aman'thul rips it? The blank spot is the planting of the tree and why it happened. And based on Silithus's current importance + the Nightmare foreshadowing it's probably going to be Un'goro.

[Super Dickmann]

I mean I think it is highly implied that these things are all the same as there's only one missing mystery tree (Un'goro's tree, shown in the Nightmare which happens to be full of Sha-looking creatures... and go figure, so does the Rift of Aln!) but what do you mean the world was fucked? What made the original hole?

Wouldn't it just be- Eonar just plants a world tree (likely due to some scheme with Elune), it gets corrupted by Y'shaarj, Aman'thul rips it? The blank spot is the planting of the tree and why it happened. And based on Silithus's importance + the Nightmare it's probably going to be Un'goro.

As in, they come to Azeroth and find it corrupted and fought over by the Old Gods. The entire business with Elun'ahir then slots in prior to the deployment of the Titanforged and the sealing of the Old Gods in prisons, serving as a preliminary, failed approach.

It makes sense and it would be strange if Aman'thul kept dragging things he didn't like out of the world, but it's Blizzzard, you never know.

[Cheezits]

As in, they come to Azeroth and find it corrupted and fought over by the Old Gods. The entire business with Elun'ahir then slots in prior to the deployment of the Titanforged and the sealing of the Old Gods in prisons, serving as a preliminary, failed approach.

And it's possible Elune is behind all this fuckery and destruction. Night Elf fans gonna freak!!

[Joshuaj]

Idk why we're still of the notion the Titans are the First Ones, when we technically saw the First Ones in the Heart of the Sepulcher lol. They're forces. It's quite literally "what if the cosmic powers were sentient?" Lmao

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I think Alleria is meant to come across as retarded, since we know she goes void later. AGain, interpreting this as it's meant to (a family and personal drama torn apart by larger than life forces), this step of teh story is when the family fails to get over their personality flaws, with first Alleria taking a terminal dip and needing to be rescued and later presumably Turalyon. They'll come together again in the finale.

with any luck all this is wrapped up by the end of launch content with the sunwell stuff, dragging it on will be painful.

[Limayria]

Apparently, Blood Ties ends with a huge twist that explains a lot of the odd characterization of Turalyon in Midnight: Alleria leaves him and renounces their marriage

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...Ties-spoilers?

If this is true, absolutely insane choice to put in a book, unless they show it in some side-content before launch. That is a huge missing piece of the story that explains a lot of Turalyon stuff for me in Midnight... I might actually like it, now?

Xalleria shippers hope still burns


Also voss's story would have been ok and coherent if we actually saw voss learning to find value in her life as an undead. Eventually seeing her death and rebirth as her catalyst from "weapon" to "person" but you know it's terrible and confusing writing to skip the central part of a characters arc

Like it's clear that was what was supposed to happen even looking at her in TWW with the ascended Nerbian plot line.

[Cheezits]

Alleria dying or in a coma at the end of launch would definitely make a good reason for Turalyon to go crazy/give himself entirely to the Light, especially if the Sunwell permanently becomes something other than Light (and magic) at the end. And we kill his generals (which we probably do..? we'll find out today)

[Vakir]

Xalleria shippers hope still burns

The ultimate toxic Yuri.

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That has been the schtick for Azeroth in general for a few expansions now. "Azeroth = free will so don't fuck with her." Free Will may even be the secret seventh thing, though with some better name, if it's not just Spirit.

That's fine, albeit I don't know if that has to be a literal manifestation. The idea of human potential or the capacity of our ability to value life and oppose the tyranny of enforcement has already been explored with Algalon, whose questline I still bet anything on is the overall writing prototype for where TLT is going and ends.

I just don't want this to suddenly be a situation where someone literally ignites in their soul to have Azerite coloring and unlocks a willed superpower or something via their will or spirit. The whole spergy 7th force description feels worryingly like that.

It can be a force in a figurative sense, I just don't want it to be an actual setpiece of cosmic involvement.

[Merryck]

Alleria dying or in a coma at the end of launch would definitely make a good reason for Turalyon to go crazy/give himself entirely to the Light, especially if the Sunwell permanently becomes something other than Light (and magic) at the end. And we kill his generals (which we probably do..? we'll find out today)

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