The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Santandame]

6. Yes, housing is locked behind Midnight (any version). I wouldn't say its pre-purchase bonus because you dont get anything extra, its just part of Midnight that released earlier.

Well for now I am screwed. Thanks for the reply though.

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I don't know if I particularly agree with this. While not necessarily being expected for 12.2, Dimensius was on the general radar of probable boss in the WSS given the context of his involvement with the Ethereals, the Shadowguard and K'aresh dating back to TBC. Zovaal was contextually contained to a single expansion cycle, from the expansion reveal to the final raid. BUT, fighting and killing Zovaal felt a lot more deserved than fighting and killing Dimensius.

All this to say, man I hope they don't whiff the eventual Xal'atath fight.

I’m not a fan of Zovaal in the slightest, but I’d argue he has just as much build up as Dimensius, possibly more. Dimensius was a single quest NPC never to be mentioned again until little flavour bits of text in Legion and then at the climax of TWW. Zovaal was seeded with mentions in Legion (albeit very subtly), began to get a lot more overtly referenced in BfA and then was pushed down our throats throughout Shadowlands. He was also hinted at in various pieces of media outside the game and I’m pretty certain the few mentions we had of Mueh’zala prior to SL were repurposed into Zovaal.

Poor character, but there was some buildup there, more than is given credit for.

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If that's the case, I can argue Zovaal was built up since BFA at least. His name wasn't dropped, but there was definitely stuff leading up to him.

Going further back, there was subtle buildup in Legion. Not by name of course, but his character and machinations definitely.

[Merryck]

If Zovaal just looked and sounded like the Primus, as he was supposed to, I would've much more enjoyed him as a villain.

The claim that he ruined the history of Warcraft and is behind everything comes from a huge misunderstanding of the lore. I've seen some people claim he is behind the Legion and the fall of Sargeras. For some reason they think he controls all of the Nathrezim? You'd be better off attributing those things to Denathrius. Really, all Zovaal was doing was blindly throwing darts at a dartboard hoping some would land. Because that's all he could do from the Maw. But that's really only made clear in the novel.

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Then, I also hear people commonly claim the afterlife in WoW consists only of the four covenant zones. Another huge misunderstanding. That's the biggest problem with the Shadowlands lore. So poorly communicated.

[Super Dickmann]

Dimensius is a better character than the Bald Man because he isn't one. Blizzard realized that the main interesting things about him was that he was a force of nature that destroyed K'aresh and so created the ethereals. He himself was just a giant angry mass, who neither had nor needed characterization. They used him in TWW to the utmost this allowed, i.e having him menace the world he was associated with and characterize its people in relation to the cataclysm. They then killed him and moved the only thing they could carry forward (his power) to their actual villain.

He was used to his maximum capacity. He, and by extension the Void Lords, weren't wasted as there was nothing to waste. Attempts to characterize or expand him would just make him into something much like Xal or the Old Gods but plus one on power and minus a million in regards to actual in-setting connection to Azeroth or any of its characters, doomed to go on about puny mortals and shout 'This cannot be!' as Poonslayer and 9 to 29 of his friends shove a broadsword up his space rectum.

Incidentally, I check back in on the thread after a little while away and am immediately greeted by Shadowlands discourse.

[NikolaiShade]

Then, I also hear people commonly claim the afterlife in WoW consists only of the four covenant zones. Another huge misunderstanding. That's the biggest problem with the Shadowlands lore. So poorly communicated.

Imo, showing the afterlife was a mistake. There are too many problems related to different faiths, different afterlives and let's not forget the WoD timeline and that convoluted explanation about souls fractured by mourne blades. A easy way out could have been presenting a sort of afterlife waitroom (more or less what we assume the Emerald Dream should be to the "Lifelands"). There they could put the covenants and leave the proper afterlives mysterious and impossible to grasp for living minds (basically a fancy but functional cop out).

Edit: and maybe make Denathrius the main villain...

[Darkarath]

Yeah Blizzard should have known that they just don't have the talent to integrate alternate timelines or the realms of Death in WoW.

Both WoD and SL were massive disasters. The story of these expansions don't get the hate that they deserve because they also were complete failures in other, more tangibles areas for the vast majority of the playerbase.

Although to be fair the questing experience of WoD was really good, but the idea behind the expansion as a whole and the consequences of its existence were a massive wound to the lore of the game that Blizzard has decided to forget about. Maybe when Yrel appears again we will get some massive retcons.

SL is being salvaged in the less damaging way. It seems clear that Blizzard will blame the Titans for its existence and leave true death as a complete mistery, as it should have always been.

[huth]

Yeah Blizzard should have known that they just don't have the talent to integrate alternate timelines or the realms of Death in WoW.

Both WoD and SL were massive disasters. The story of these expansions don't get the hate that they deserve because they also were complete failures in other, more tangibles areas for the vast majority of the playerbase.

They don't get the hate because that hate is largely concentrated in a small group of people and isn't actually a widespread phenomenon.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

They don't get the hate because that hate is largely concentrated in a small group of people and isn't actually a widespread phenomenon.

topkek /10chars

[Darkarath]

They don't get the hate because that hate is largely concentrated in a small group of people and isn't actually a widespread phenomenon.

I would say that the hate on SL is widespread among the playerbase.

The hate on anything related to story or lore will never be widespread because most players don't care about such things. I'd also bet that those that actually care are less and less because of the continuous dissapointment in this particular department.

[Sondrelk]

Dimensius being the last Void Lord is an interesting twist, just done terrible. We saw how that twist should have been done in Starcraft when Artanis finds Ulnar and realizes that all the Xel'Naga are dead.
We just needed a questline that establishes that the Void Lords are already dead, and then actually fighting Dimensius would have meant something. As it stands, it's just a cool boss fight with a weird retcon tacked on at the end.

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Incidentally, I check back in on the thread after a little while away and am immediately greeted by Shadowlands discourse.

Just goes to show that Dragonflight for all it's failures, did succeed in it's aim to make a "good, but boring" expansion. People still gravitate towards SL as the prime example of "bad expansion", rather than DF.

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Imo, showing the afterlife was a mistake. There are too many problems related to different faiths, different afterlives and let's not forget the WoD timeline and that convoluted explanation about souls fractured by mourne blades. A easy way out could have been presenting a sort of afterlife waitroom (more or less what we assume the Emerald Dream should be to the "Lifelands"). There they could put the covenants and leave the proper afterlives mysterious and impossible to grasp for living minds (basically a fancy but functional cop out).

Edit: and maybe make Denathrius the main villain...

As I said right after the first trailer. Shadowlands should have been a Northrend revamp, with the Shadowlands denizens coming to us. That way we could have had all the spectacle of vampires and undead armies. But none of the lore stretch marks.

By the end we would have gone to the Maw as the big climactic final zone. And all the other zones would have remained mostly mysterious. Not to mention that by having the story set on Azeroth (and more importantly, OUR Azeroth) we would have had a decent justification for why we meet so many important lore heroes that know us specifically. No weird retcons around several strands into one rope. Or timeline shenanigans.

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If they do they'll suddenly have humanoid forms like Xal & the Incarnates. Personally I expect they might turn random unrelated things into old gods, as the black blood stuff suggests injecting anything with the Black Blood basically turns it into an old god.

So many cool ideas you could have for humanoid versions. An updated version of the Twin Emperors for C'thun. A fancy Nerubian lord for Yogg-Saron. Innsmouth inspired fish man for N'zoth.

[THEORACLE64]

Kinda sucks 200 outdoor items is the limit, but I've done what I can do for my mini Dalaran of a house.

[Joshuaj]

If Zovaal just looked and sounded like the Primus, as he was supposed to, I would've much more enjoyed him as a villain.

The claim that he ruined the history of Warcraft and is behind everything comes from a huge misunderstanding of the lore. I've seen some people claim he is behind the Legion and the fall of Sargeras. For some reason they think he controls all of the Nathrezim? You'd be better off attributing those things to Denathrius. Really, all Zovaal was doing was blindly throwing darts at a dartboard hoping some would land. Because that's all he could do from the Maw. But that's really only made clear in the novel.

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Then, I also hear people commonly claim the afterlife in WoW consists only of the four covenant zones. Another huge misunderstanding. That's the biggest problem with the Shadowlands lore. So poorly communicated.

They could still utilize his concept look in the future imo. Just tweak the design a bit, and use it as Zovaal's arbiter appearance. Reminder, we have no idea what he looked like prior.

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They don't get the hate because that hate is largely concentrated in a small group of people and isn't actually a widespread phenomenon.

No. It's pretty widespread. Though, at the same time, I don't consider much of the community to be very smart lol.

[Nymrohd]

Kinda sucks 200 outdoor items is the limit, but I've done what I can do for my mini Dalaran of a house.

Oh I also got a floating house! But the exterior is not yet ready. Also some floating trees!

[Vakir]

Incidentally, I check back in on the thread after a little while away and am immediately greeted by Shadowlands discourse.

Do we need a new Law? Or an update to the existing one?

Also, SL hate not being widespread is a wild ass take. Blizzard made a slide show about the damage to the game and the reception was part of it. It's not just enthusiasts and terminally online people.

[Hitei]

They could still utilize his concept look in the future imo. Just tweak the design a bit, and use it as Zovaal's arbiter appearance. Reminder, we have no idea what he looked like prior.

Yes we do, we literally had a flashback. He looked exactly the same but less evil and with no runes.

[Joshuaj]

Yes we do, we literally had a flashback. He looked exactly the same but less evil and with no runes.

That was post-rebellion, right before he was sent to the Maw. We don't know what he looked like pre-rebellion, nor do we know what his armor looked like prior.

It's entirely possible he could've shaved his head lmao. Hell, it's entirely possible his rebellion look was different from his initial Arbiter look, idfk! My point is, you can make it work, even if it's not exactly the OG concept design.

[Vakir]

Even if it's usable, I'd argue it's unnecessary one way or the other because his involvement has no reason to return. His story has ended and he's not really received well enough to return. We already know enough about him prior so that anything around flashbacks is also unnecessary.

[milkmustache]

It's entirely possible he could've shaved his head lmao. Hell, it's entirely possible his rebellion look was different from his initial Arbiter look, idfk! My point is, you can make it work, even if it's not exactly the OG concept design.

Yea, but at that rate why? It doesn't make sense to make him look so similar to the Primus just cause it's referencing some original concept art. Very similar to the push (of which I was a big part of lol) for Northeron in Midnight, just cause some original concept art had it in that area.

I also... don't hate Zovaal's look. The original Ice King Primus esque concept art was a really fun idea, but I don't think the new look is terrible. He's menacing and he's got a giant socket in his chest where the one purpose of his being was ripped from him, and instead of covering it with armor he goes and fully displays it. Idk, for all of Shadowlands faults, Zovaal is pretty cool.

[Joshuaj]

Yea, but at that rate why? It doesn't make sense to make him look so similar to the Primus just cause it's referencing some original concept art. Very similar to the push (of which I was a big part of lol) for Northeron in Midnight, just cause some original concept art had it in that area.

I also... don't hate Zovaal's look. The original Ice King Primus esque concept art was a really fun idea, but I don't think the new look is terrible. He's menacing and he's got a giant socket in his chest where the one purpose of his being was ripped from him, and instead of covering it with armor he goes and fully displays it. Idk, for all of Shadowlands faults, Zovaal is pretty cool.

I mean, I just think it'd be nice if he had a Hades-esc design during his Arbiter era.

His current design is perfectly fine, but we have no idea what he looked like during his time as Arbiter. We've only seen him post-rebellion (Both before his Domination runes and after his Domination runes).

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

Genuinely it is funny to see the argument of no characterization when again they don't even try, not that I am surprised thats' the talking point that manifests out of all of this nonsense.

[Super Dickmann]

Dimensius being the last Void Lord is an interesting twist, just done terrible. We saw how that twist should have been done in Starcraft when Artanis finds Ulnar and realizes that all the Xel'Naga are dead.
We just needed a questline that establishes that the Void Lords are already dead, and then actually fighting Dimensius would have meant something. As it stands, it's just a cool boss fight with a weird retcon tacked on at the end.

As I wrote when this first came up, the entire discourse about 'wasting' the Void Lords or it even constituting a twist is nonsense:

This has little value for a number of reasons. One, there was only ever one active Void Lord anyway and it's the one we just killed and fed to Xal in this patch, with all the others, if any, being in the Void proper. Two, this being the case, and the writers being oddly restrained in not featuring the whole of the void, whichever Zereth it was even in Midnight, with the Voidstorm just a part of it, they can (and will) always change their minds later if they come up with some idea. But third, and most importantly, the Void Lords can't have a fall since they never had a rise to begin with.

They appeared in Chronicle solely to downplay the Old Gods and improve the Titans, retroactively being involved in Sargeras's fall. Dimensius was confirmed to be one in some artifact flavor text and then none of them appear and none get mentioned up until TWW in any meaningful capacity. You will note that Sargeras's fall, even in the retconned version, doesn't actually require the Void Lords to be anyone of consequence. The inciting event that gets him is seeing an Old God and what he fears is the manifestation of a world soul, which is accomplished by said Old God, to bring in the Void Lord. But you could just as easily have the Old God himself, who does all the work, be the inhabiting power and change nothing in this premise or how any character involved actually acted. It's the manifestations of the Void in actual reality that are engaging to the plot, not what goes on past the curtain that we don't see and that the writers couldn't invent even after five expansions.

The Void Lords have no presence and no narrative effect. Their existence is, save for a few documents, relegated to the Chronicle description of them as nameless, faceless Old Gods +1 who chuck the Old Gods we know into the world, who then do the actual work. The threat they pose isn't just analogous to an Old God with the power of the World Soul, it is identical, because that's their means. None of them ever appear, none are referenced, nothing was done to differentiate or set them up.

Even calling it a retcon is a strain for me because again, this had no reflection in the way anything at all was written. No effort was made to build up to us fighting Void Lords (wisely so) and Dimensius was a threat because he was a big monster destroying the place he was famous for destroying and then threatening the world, not because of his unique status. The route they took was already about the best you could do with this kind of big threat, precisely because it avoided the pitfall of the Bald Man of shifting the weight of the conflict towards a new, undercharacterized satan figure. Dimensius wouldn't be better if he was Amon and he could never be Sargeras..

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Do we need a new Law? Or an update to the existing one?

Also, SL hate not being widespread is a wild ass take. Blizzard made a slide show about the damage to the game and the reception was part of it. It's not just enthusiasts and terminally online people.

If anything, SL hate is lighter in this thread than it is most anywhere else, since anyone still discussing the plot compared to the many who lost interest must at least tacitly tolerate SL. I'm a moderate too as I consider SL's story to be merely shit in a fairly baseline Blizzard way, rather than uniquely shit.