The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Joshuaj]

It is, and in that same way it's a product of the time and place it's from in the same capacity anything else is. But my point is that Warcraft cosmic horror is not only easily combatible but has tangible motives and will not just make them clear but will "gra-ha-ha" them to you in grand gestures. The only thing different about them is the color and model you're hitting and that there's a reverb filter on their marginally more florid dialogue. Also, there is a sanity meter mechanic, and you get mind controlled rather than shitting yourself and slamming your head 52 times into a wall.

The closest thing to a genuine paradigm breaking revelation from anything Old God adjacent is the curse of flesh, and those impacted by it respond to it with all the urgency and terror of someone getting diagnosed with easily reversible pre-diabetes.

There's a way to do modern takes per your examples, even if I'd doubt Blizzard's ability to without the sappy pandering of the current direction, but my point is even a competent and fresh direction is done in by the same way Blizzard handles any conflict.

It's Mission 7 of the Night Elf campaign in Reign of Chaos, or Tassadar nuking the Hive Mind if you prefer. Again and again and again and again.

Tbf here, WoW's case is basically "What if we were capable of fighting these guys?"

While in Lovecraft's case, it's "Don't even pray. You're just fucked. You're also less than nothing!"

[Eldryth]

Don't really see why Dagran would be an Artificer, but sure, why not.

That part, at least, is a really natural fit and a pretty common prediction- I've been suspecting it myself for almost a year now, and it'd only gotten more common since then, especially after the Overcharged Delves stuff. He seems like he's being built up as a future major character, and his story has all been TLT setup, but he doesn't really fit any existing classes.

Instead, he's all about studying Titan technology, and he already learned to use it to help you. So him being tied to a class using Titan technology makes sense- I don't know whether it would be considered an Artificer, a Tinker, or something else entirely, but this is exactly the kind of thing Dagran is learning to do.


Definitely taking this as informed speculation rather than a real leak though.

[Limayria]

Heard from a friend of a friend take it worth a grain of salt.

Last Titan development already making good progress. Most of Borean tundra is under the ocean from naga and primalists working together. The remaining zone is combined with Sholozar Basin. Similar is the case with Howling Fjord and Grizzly Hills being combined and being ruled over by a titan keeper uniting the vrykul and remaining iron dwarves which will serve as the starting experience. Dragonblight will mostly deal with primalists and some returning Dragonflight characters. Zul'drak will involve a character from Zul'aman coming with us and confronting their even more brutal cousins in the north. Icecrown will be combined with Crystalsong and will deal with undead warlords and arcane magicc. Stormpeaks will be in a fierce winter storm that will prevent players from entering it at launch.

Mounts will undergo minor changes. Mount equipment will be removed and built into ground mounts to always have waterwalking and no daze to give them a bonus versus flying mounts. The first patch zone will include a lot of verticalality and wallclimbing with ground mounts will be a thing.

The new class is Artificer which will be a blend of technology and titan magic available to all classes. Dagran will be the major Artificer character in the expansion having learned somethings from the archives in Dornogol. It can dps/tank/heal and uses a bunch of technology in combat and abilities that summon non-controlled minions (think demo lock without the main pet) calling on turrets and medic drones.

New shaman spec will be Earthwarder that will be represented through Thrall who is ready to crack some skulls. It will be focused on earth, frost and fire sharing a hero spec with enhance and restoration. New race/class combos include kul tiran, night elf, highmountain tauren and undead paladins. The undead paladin lore will be seeded in later in Midnight with Calia Menethil forming an organization of paladins for Lordaeron that have both undead and living paladins mostly ex-scarlet crusade who regret their choices. Derek Proudmoore will pursue this path to better serve Calia.

The major class feature for TLT is basically limit breaks from FF14. With the stakes being raised in TLT they want to show that through gameplay. This will vary from class to class and have different effects. Examples are druids invoking the wild gods, priests summoning a naaru, evokers call in a dragons and the demon hunters call in a strike from the Fel Hammer.

First raid tier will include two raids. A titan-themed raid with Odyn as the final boss but unlike Midnight the 1-boss raid will be the true final boss of the tier. This will be Chromatus who primalists sabotage the prison in the Nexus.

They are working better on building up the final boss of the second tier for an expansion. Iridikron is not the main antagonist but he and his primalists will be a threat during some of the questlines at launch with Thrall being a rival of sorts. The first major patch zone will be underground and can be accessed from multiple zones later on underneath Northrend where the raid with Iridikron will be and the primalist leader Magatha Grimtotem. No word on what is after the first patch.

hoping this is real because demon hunters calling in air strikes is actually peak idgaf about anything else lmao everything seems plasuable, theres a whole segment of the Arator quest showing the new scarlet arms master leaving the crusade deciding its not worth dying for but this also just feels like trying to write out midnight beta plot points tbh

Definitely taking this as informed speculation rather than a real leak though.

we are of the same hat

[GeometryWizard]

Dagran's the least annoying of all the new gen characters just because he's an actual naive kid and not a cardboard cutout that the writers make spout heavyhanded idealism out of about how much the Warcraft you like sucks

[Vakir]

Tbf here, WoW's case is basically "What if we were capable of fighting these guys?"

While in Lovecraft's case, it's "Don't even pray. You're just fucked. You're also less than nothing!"

That's not WoW specific, that's just any fiction using those concepts. And even then, I again think you're missing the point - it's not about anything silly like power scaling relative to our capabilities. The entities involved simply do not act in that way or have the same motivations or tone or anything resembling it.

[Joshuaj]

That's not WoW specific, that's just any fiction using those concepts. And even then, I again think you're missing the point - it's not about anything silly like power scaling relative to our capabilities. The entities involved simply do not act in that way or have the same motivations or tone or anything resembling it.

I mean, you're right on the first point, but on the second point, that's again what happens when you place these guys in a setting where they're the antagonists and therefore must have goals to continue the narrative.

[Vakir]

Dagran's the least annoying of all the new gen characters just because he's an actual naive kid and not a cardboard cutout that the writers make spout heavyhanded idealism out of about how much the Warcraft you like sucks

He also isn't forlornly looking into the distance doubting his own capabilities or whatever. He gets shit done as needed and is inquisitive without being obnoxious or overly quirky about it. There's no crap where he's looking for Magni where we need to excessively hold his hand and massage his fragile ethos or whatever. He just does an adventure thing.

Also yeah, the Artificer thing is a given and very much would make sense, he's been standing in the 100 disc fragments weekly quest room for like 4 years by the time TLT rolls around.

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I mean, you're right on the first point, but on the second point, that's again what happens when you place these guys in a setting where they're the antagonists and therefore must have goals to continue the narrative.

No, not really. You can have antagonists that have generic malicious intentions rather than ineffable, mind rending confusion that would make us crap ourselves and go mute...without having them exposit directly to us how evil they are and what they want, the way basically every single WoW villain does.

The closest thing they got to being fair about it was C'Thun, and that's not me being "old Warcraft good new thing bad," I mean C'Thun's whispers are quiet and subtle, aren't even present in the chat log, and when we face him there's weird alien noises and chimes and reverberations rather than Yogg-Saron LITERALLY LAUGHING LIKE A CARTOON CHARACTER AND TELLING US ALL ABOUT HOW HE'S FUCKED US BEFORE IN BRAIN FLASHBACKS.

And even then, your courage failing and heart exploding is very "I am a very bad space tumor." But it did the job for 2004.

[Joshuaj]

He also isn't forlornly looking into the distance doubting his own capabilities or whatever. He gets shit done as needed and is inquisitive without being obnoxious or overly quirky about it. There's no crap where he's looking for Magni where we need to excessively hold his hand and massage his fragile ethos or whatever. He just does an adventure thing.

Also yeah, the Artificer thing is a given and very much would make sense, he's been standing in the 100 disc fragments weekly quest room for like 4 years by the time TLT rolls around.

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No, not really. You can have antagonists that have generic malicious intentions rather than ineffable, mind rending confusion without having them exposit directly to us how evil they are and what they want, the way basically every single WoW villain does.

The closest thing they got to being fair about it was C'Thun, and that's not me being "old Warcraft good new thing bad," I mean C'Thun's whispers are quiet and subtle, aren't even present in the chat log, and when we face him there's weird alien noises and chimes and reverberations rather than Yogg-Saron LITERALLY LAUGHING LIKE A CARTOON CHARACTER AND TELLING US ALL ABOUT HOW HE'S FUCKED US BEFORE IN BRAIN FLASHBACKS.

Guess that's just a way to make them fun for the champions to fight then, idk lol.

[Vakir]

Guess that's just a way to make them fun for the champions to fight then, idk lol.

I...

Ok, deep breath.

Respectfully, I don't think we're ever going to be on the same page with this or characters or approach to story in general.

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hoping this is real because demon hunters calling in air strikes is actually peak idgaf about anything else lmao everything seems plasuable, theres a whole segment of the Arator quest showing the new scarlet arms master leaving the crusade deciding its not worth dying for but this also just feels like trying to write out midnight beta plot points tbh

we are of the same hat

Same feeling, more or less. Albeit the Lightforged did it first, but a proper LB level mechanic of an airstrike would be very cool.

Actually. Same with summoning a Naaru, calling in dragons---

Actually, thinking on it, all of these LB have been done before or are still done with 2-3 minute cooldowns, to be honest. It would just be bigger particle effects. So hopefully they sufficiently bake the idea if it's real.

[Joshuaj]

I...

Ok, deep breath.

Respectfully, I don't think we're ever going to be on the same page with this or characters or approach to story in general.

If it helps, I do know whatcha mean. Just tryna give the best explanation I can regarding specific changes lol.

But, we can agree on this. The Void Lords are not the Outer Gods. I'm not gonna lie to myself assume otherwise.

However, where we disagree stems from the fact that I'm more than certain the Void Lords were based off them in some form, and that I think the cosmic horror is in some ways similar, even if not absolute. Granted, ik for a fact the Outer Gods most likely don't have any generic bad guy dialogue expressing their intentions or anything like that lol.

[Count Zero]

Most of it is vaguely on-topic but ffs folks some of you use this as a personal stream-of-consciousness blog for any WoW-related thoughts. It's not meaningfully contributing to discussion to circlejerk endlessly about a handful of personal obsessions and headcanons.

Back on topic myself, but I was able to log in to the "Midnight PTR" I have (I do not have beta access). It had my Lemix characters from TWW PTR, but the one I logged into was ported to Orgrimmar with the message about remix being over. I turned in a Midnight campaign breadcrumb

[Vakir]

Granted, ik for a fact the Outer Gods most likely don't have any generic bad guy dialogue expressing their intentions or anything like that lol.

I mean, there's some edge cases and oddly enough, Yog projected is damn close to benevolent in his own weird way in Through the Gates of the Silver Key. It's also all public domain so people have done whatever they want to the mythos, basically.

But generally, it's like hearing the name of God. It really shouldn't be doable.

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Most of it is vaguely on-topic but ffs folks some of you use this as a personal stream-of-consciousness blog for any WoW-related thoughts. It's not meaningfully contributing to discussion to circlejerk endlessly about a handful of personal obsessions and headcanons.

It's an odd grey area, because it's very difficult to speculate without talking about or at least taking into account Blizzard's style of telling stories and whether it's palatable to stay that way for the future.

Like, if I'm talking about 12.1, I'm disingenuous if I ignore the datamined ZA patch area evidence, and if we do talk about that, it's equally impossible to not talk about what we know from the RPG books and the frustrated reaction of "God dammit, are we seriously villain batting Zul'jan already?"

[Joshuaj]

I mean, there's some edge cases and oddly enough, Yog projected is damn close to benevolent in his own weird way in Through the Gates of the Silver Key. It's also all public domain so people have done whatever they want to the mythos, basically.

But generally, it's like hearing the name of God. It really shouldn't be doable.

Ah gotcha. The stuff with Yog-Sothoth is why I made the comparison with the First Ones to begin with, as that'd be a more fair comparison than the Void Lords.

[DenPhoenix]

They are working better on building up the final boss of the second tier for an expansion. Iridikron is not the main antagonist but he and his primalists will be a threat during some of the questlines at launch with Thrall being a rival of sorts. The first major patch zone will be underground and can be accessed from multiple zones later on underneath Northrend where the raid with Iridikron will be and the primalist leader Magatha Grimtotem. No word on what is after the first patch.

All events DF, TWW, Midnight = Magatha master-plan 100%

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But honestly, I hope they bring Magatha back into the story as the true leader of the Primalists in TLT. Kurog was always just her pawn.

They could’ve given us a great story about shamans and primalist - why the Earthen Ring didn’t take part in the events on the Dragon Isles, mayby primalists recruited members of the Earthen Ring through Magatha, and so on.

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Btw, the PTR servers for the Midnight pre-patch opened for everyone, and honestly, the rewards for pre-patch are kinda meh. I hope they add something more cool.

[Limayria]

All events DF, TWW, Midnight = Magatha master-plan 100%

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But honestly, I hope they bring Magatha back into the story as the true leader of the Primalists in TLT. Kurog was always just her pawn.

They could’ve given us a great story about shamans and primalist - why the Earthen Ring didn’t take part in the events on the Dragon Isles, mayby primalists recruited members of the Earthen Ring through Magatha, and so on.

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Btw, the PTR servers for the Midnight pre-patch opened for everyone, and honestly, the rewards for pre-patch are kinda meh. I hope they add something more cool.

You know they did include magatha in the anniversary event as one of the lore stories cho tells which I always thought was kinda random if they weren't ever planning on busting her out again sometime in the future

[Auxis]

He also isn't forlornly looking into the distance doubting his own capabilities or whatever. He gets shit done as needed and is inquisitive without being obnoxious or overly quirky about it. There's no crap where he's looking for Magni where we need to excessively hold his hand and massage his fragile ethos or whatever. He just does an adventure thing.

Also yeah, the Artificer thing is a given and very much would make sense, he's been standing in the 100 disc fragments weekly quest room for like 4 years by the time TLT rolls around.

I'd say having an earthen Machinespeaker as a friend/mentor would be the lead in instead of him standing in a titan library.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

re: Dagran, the main concern I’d have with him is that becoming a major character in modern WoW usually leads to a lobotomy. I’m skeptical what works with him would survive as he’s thrust further front and center and thus under higher demand to become a better role model for WoW’s next Very Special Episode.

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However, where we disagree stems from the fact that I'm more than certain the Void Lords were based off them in some form, and that I think the cosmic horror is in some ways similar, even if not absolute. Granted, ik for a fact the Outer Gods most likely don't have any generic bad guy dialogue expressing their intentions or anything like that lol.

To be fair to you, one does:

Hei! Aa-shanta ’nygh! You are off! Send back earth’s gods to their haunts on unknown Kadath, and pray to all space that you may never meet me in my thousand other forms. Farewell, Randolph Carter, and beware; for I am Nyarlathotep, the Crawling Chaos!

I’ll readily admit Lovecraft was still ultimately a pulp writer and the purity of his cosmic horror fluctuated. While N’Zoth bragging about how good he is at manipulating people while having no charisma or intelligence in any demonstrable way is absolutely insufferable, the most insufferable thing about it is that N’Zoth sucks and modern WoW dialogue is awful, irrespective of who it comes from. If Dimensius had any unworkable shortcoming, it’s much less that he could be beaten or clearly express personality (he didn’t anyway, but I digress) and more that there is nothing interesting to do with a big voidwalker, and any good depiction of the void lords would need to be something other than big voidwalkers in substance, and Dimensius was crippled by virtue of already having appeared as a big voidwalker whose only defining characteristic is being a Galactus knockoff.

[Joshuaj]

Definitely seems like a lot of the fleshy aspects of the Outer Gods "designs" were used for the Old Gods, while the Void Lords had a more unique design, taking from beings such as Eternity from Marvel or Galactus, all while keeping the typical "Voidwalker"-inspired look.

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Heck, the minions of the Old Gods have the more typical Cthulhu and general Old One look.

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Also, yeah, WoW's writing ain't really the best with these beings.

[Vakir]

I'd say having an earthen Machinespeaker as a friend/mentor would be the lead in instead of him standing in a titan library.

Yeah, either or. It all feels like a setup. That and Brann's crazy Titan healing spheres and whatnot.

Satisfy the Tinker people while also not stepping too much on the Engineer/Mechanical pet hunters/whatever too much. And more "cool" as a general aesthetic than a lot of niche popularity cultures like goblins or gnomes.

[Merryck]

I wonder what weapons an artificer would use. Your standard ranged weapons (guns, bows, crossbows) would make sense. I wonder if they could get a unique weapon type, though. Like, dual wielding one handed guns or something. I feel like power fists are also pretty iconic for artificers.