The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Joshuaj]

Yeah idk. So long as TLT doesn't retcon the Progenitors, I don't much care.

- - - Updated - - -

The possibility of the 7th being Azeroth and the Worldsouls could make sense. I always saw it as the 7th seeking Azeroth, and the First Ones trying to hide her from it...

But what if it's more like the 7th didn't want to be part of this, and was forced into slumber by the other 6? Afterall, Firim did say there were 2 songs, and yet only 1 could be. We know the Worldsouls also sing their own unique song, and that beings such as Azeroth have their own motives separate from the Titans. As for Zovaal's fear? He apparently felt it while judging souls, and N'Zoth fears "what is to come" as well. But we know he wants Azeroth's power to stop what is coming. Wouldn't that be a contradiction? Likely. But, on the off chance it ain't, it would likely just mean Zovaal didn't know of Azeroth's true nature fully, same with N'Zoth.

So, maybe, instead of there being some mega big bad that's out there, separate from the Progenitors, the 7th was within our own cosmology this entire time?

What about the saying "the 7th covets what the 6 hold fast" then? You can simply say it seeks to consume the pattern the 6 are trying to keep in place, idk.
Ofc, I still think the 7th is a separate thing entire, but on the off chance it isn't, it would definitely fit the Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth inspiration Azeroth and the First Ones seem to have lol

What do y'all think?

[JDBlou]

Yeah idk. So long as TLT doesn't retcon the Progenitors, I don't much care.

- - - Updated - - -

The possibility of the 7th being Azeroth and the Worldsouls could make sense. I always saw it as the 7th seeking Azeroth, and the First Ones trying to hide her from it...

But what if it's more like the 7th didn't want to be part of this, and was forced into slumber by the other 6? Afterall, Firim did say there were 2 songs, and yet only 1 could be. We know the Worldsouls also sing their own unique song, and that beings such as Azeroth have their own motives separate from the Titans. As for Zovaal's fear? He apparently felt it while judging souls, and N'Zoth fears "what is to come" as well. But we know he wants Azeroth's power to stop what is coming. Wouldn't that be a contradiction? Likely. But, on the off chance it ain't, it would likely just mean Zovaal didn't know of Azeroth's true nature fully, same with N'Zoth.

So, maybe, instead of there being some mega big bad that's out there, separate from the Progenitors, the 7th was within our own cosmology this entire time?

What about the saying "the 7th covets what the 6 hold fast" then? You can simply say it seeks to consume the pattern the 6 are trying to keep in place, idk.
Ofc, I still think the 7th is a separate thing entire, but on the off chance it isn't, it would definitely fit the Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth inspiration Azeroth and the First Ones seem to have lol

What do y'all think?

Aren't the Progenitors as a concept widely reviled? I was of the impression that "the turtles all the way down" nature of the Progenitors was not something we're actively trying to bring back into the story.

Sylvanas mentioning the Shadowlands being ordered to me seems like an attempt at remediation of the First One concept by having that be a mythology conceived by the forces of Order to obfuscate their transgressions and an egregious imposition: Ordering the realm of Death. It would really demonstrate the length and breadth of the "Titan Conspiracy" being the selling point of the Last Titan.

[Cheezits]

Didn't consider that the Primus could use the Scourge, possibly to help Odyn if they are aligned against the mortals.

[Joshuaj]

Aren't the Progenitors as a concept widely reviled? I was of the impression that "the turtles all the way down" nature of the Progenitors was not something we're actively trying to bring back into the story.

Sylvanas mentioning the Shadowlands being ordered to me seems like an attempt at remediation of the First One concept by having that be a mythology conceived by the forces of Order to obfuscate their transgressions and imposition: Ordering the realm of Death. It would really sell the length and breadth of the "Titan Conspiracy" being the selling point of the Last Titan.

I mean, not really. The First Ones are just the original 6 powers. You can simply state that the Shadowlands being ordered is a product of Order putting it, Light, and Death in the same category of the cosmos. All 3 powers are structured in some way, and you see similar patterns and structures in the Titans architecture (Like the Hall of Awakening or the Coreway), some of Death's architecture (Oribos), etc.

Heck, the Sepulcher definitely has that Orderly architecture, albeit it's far more primal and ancient.

Idk why you think Order would make up the Progenitors when the Titans have been trying to hide such info from the mortals lmao.

- - - Updated - - -

I actually talked about how, since Zereth Mortis was one of the workshops of the Progenitors, we can basically see the first drafts of their influences and how they'd eventually govern the cosmos. This is how I summarized it:


The energies of Light (Golden creation magics creating water and whatnot)
The growth of Life (How things seem to evolve and expand)
The structures of Order (The forges, blueprints, and overall designs of things)
The changes of Disorder (How the magics and lands of the First Ones shift and change whenever at points)
The oblivion of Shadow (How things eventually fizzle out in the end, like the shade blocking light, or energies fading out, etc)
The eternity of Death (How things go through an ever evolving cycle, which prevents things from being too much or too little)
The building blocks of the Elements (How there is a physicality and look to everything, and how emotions change and balance out the behaviors of different things)
And the melody of the First Ones (The song of creation that keeps the balance going).

You see ALL of this within Zereth Mortis and the Sepulcher.

- - - Updated - - -

You also have that second song with the 7th, but we don't know if that's linked to the Worldsouls, or if it's something else entirely.

[JDBlou]

I mean, not really. The First Ones are just the original 6 powers. You can simply state that the Shadowlands being ordered is a product of Order putting it, Light, and Death in the same category of the cosmos. All 3 powers are structured in some way, and you see similar patterns and structures in the Titans architecture (Like the Hall of Awakening or the Coreway), some of Death's architecture (Oribos), etc.

Heck, the Sepulcher definitely has that Orderly architecture, albeit it's far more primal and ancient.

Idk why you think Order would make up the Progenitors when the Titans have been trying to hide such info from the mortals lmao.

- - - Updated - - -

I actually talked about how, since Zereth Mortis was one of the workshops of the Progenitors, we can basically see the first drafts of their influences and how they'd eventually govern the cosmos. This is how I summarized it:


The energies of Light (Golden creation magics creating water and whatnot)
The growth of Life (How things seem to evolve and expand)
The structures of Order (The forges, blueprints, and overall designs of things)
The changes of Disorder (How the magics and lands of the First Ones shift and change whenever at points)
The oblivion of Shadow (How things eventually fizzle out in the end, like the shade blocking light, or energies fading out, etc)
The eternity of Death (How things go through an ever evolving cycle, which prevents things from being too much or too little)
The building blocks of the Elements (How there is a physicality and look to everything, and how emotions change and balance out the behaviors of different things)
And the melody of the First Ones (The song of creation that keeps the balance going).

You see ALL of this within Zereth Mortis and the Sepulcher.

- - - Updated - - -

You also have that second song with the 7th, but we don't know if that's linked to the Worldsouls, or if it's something else entirely.

I hear you on the Watsonian explanation - that Light, Order, and Death sharing structural similarities could just be inherent properties of those forces. That's fair from an in-universe perspective.
But let me approach this from a Doylist angle - what the writers are actually doing - and address the "why hide from mortals" question:

The perspective problem:
When you're inside a system, a being who was created as part of it - you don't question the architecture. This is just reality. You can think of the residents of the Shadowlands like the prisoners in Plato's Cave. This is all they've known so why question it.

But living mortals have outside perspective. They experience multiple cosmic forces. They enter the system from the outside. They see Oribos and the cosmic Sortng Hat. And crucially - they can see the seams.
That's exactly what we see Sylvanas doing. She's experienced life, undeath, the Maw, the Shadowlands machinery, and whatever lies "past the veil of true death." From that outside perspective, she can say "this is too ordered". That's omething an Eternal One, created by the system, might never recognize as suspicious, just part of the "Pattern".

The First Ones mythology serves to preempt those questions. When mortals arrive and go "wait, why does the afterlife feel like a Titan facility?" the answer is: "Oh, ancient precursors we don't fully understand designed it this way - the Titans are just following the same cosmic blueprint." It's a thought-terminating explanation that discourages further investigation. It's comfortable myth that discourages further questioning, the line of questioning that gets you labelled heretic and exiled.

But granted, Odyn's a loose thread and there are two possibilities here: Odyn is aware the First Ones is an artifice and is partially in charge of making sure they never unmask the Wizard, or Odyn as an artificial being himself, is programmed with the belief that the First Ones are real too.

The narrative problem Blizzard faces:
From a meta-writing perspective, Shadowlands was widely criticized for making the afterlife feel sterile, mechanical, and "wrong" for Warcraft. The First Ones were reviled - cosmic machinery which cheapens everything and removes free will, turtles all the way down into predestination, a machine with machine people with zero agency: fundamentally at odds with Warcraft's heroic fantasy roots where mortals matter.. These aren't in-universe problems; these are real-world reception issues the current team inherited.

What we're seeing them do:
"On The Nature of the Dream", a lore book explicitly questioning whether Titans created or merely discovered and ordered the Dream - and warning not to share it with the keepers
Sylvanas calling the Shadowlands "too ordered" after seeing "past the veil of true death": positioning the Shadowlands we experienced as artificial, not authentic Death
Two parallel forces, two parallel voices echoing the same concerns.

The Worldsoul Saga promoted around a "Titan conspiracy" that "challenges everything we thought we knew"

The elegant solution:
Instead of ignoring Shadowlands (leaving a permanent black mark), they can recontextualize it. The parts that felt wrong - the overly bureaucratic nature, the sterile architecture, the convenient sorting system - become intentional clues. The community's complaints get validated: "Yes, it DID feel wrong - because it WAS wrong."
Whether Order fully fabricated the Progenitors or just co-opted/extended existing structures, from a storytelling perspective, using Shadowlands' failures as evidence of Titan interference is brilliant damage control. It turns a mistake into foreshadowing.
And it works because mortals (and by extension, players), have the outside perspective to recognize something the machinery itself cannot.

[Joshuaj]

A lot of your statements come from things we knew since even Shadowlands though, that the Titans like to order what already exists.

Also, I don't care about any type of "watsonian" explanation or whatever. I'm not some deep seated philosopher lol. As for the conspiracy? That was simply in regards to everything we knew about the Titans, their intentions, and Azeroth's true nature. Again, you can argue this was a topic we first started to get info on in SL, especially since Azeroth's power was capable of powering the Machine of Origination, which is...weird to say the least lol.

Also, the Shadowlands being "too ordered" is not the same as the Emerald Dream being ordered, as the Dream naturally doesn't appear to be an orderly place, whereas the Shadowlands was seemingly made to he ordered a specific way. Either way, both serve an intended purpose, and it's possible both are linked in some way. If nothing else, we do know the Titans seemingly have some type of history with the Shadowlands, so there might be possible connections regardless.

- - - Updated - - -

We've also seen the ancient forces that shaped the universe at the heart of the Sepulcher (Albeit, they're seemingly in a type of "slumber"). So, unless Blizzard completely recontextualizes and rewrites 9.2 and its purpose, the First Ones are NOT getting retconned.

[LarryWithTheWeatherReport]

I think it would be really neat if Denathrius took over the Burning Legion, but the Primus snatched the Scourge out from underneath him. Demons are useful on a cosmic level, but the Scourge is the true prize when it comes to affecting Azeroth directly. Even better would be if the Primus were revealed, over time, to not be as friendly as he seems. He's a master strategist and has an entire wing of his military dedicated to deception, invented Domination magic and created the artifact that protects the Arbiter from it, and seems to have esoteric knowledge far beyond his remit. I could see Denathrius essentially abandoning Death in favour of his gluttony and greed, but the Primus absolutely seems the type to take control of all of Death (whatever that means) if it benefits his strategy. People seem broadly supportive of the Primus having been the true villain of the Shadowlands, so why not do it now?

The Last Titan would be a perfect time to kick this off. The seed has been planted for the titan conspiracy to involve the ordering of the Shadowlands, and we should find out whether that helped or hindered the Primus in his true goals.

(As for Denathrius, I really want him to have his soul transferred into Gorribal. If his thing is sentient swords, why not become the largest sentient sword in the universe? He can stab himself into planets and suck out their mana. The most abstract of vampires: a sentient syringe.)

Yeah the Primus becoming the true villain of Shadowlands all along would be great with him being a agent for the Titans either by force or by their creation. Basically the Titans could have easily destroy Zovaal at any point but Aman'Thul sees all and already knows we weak mortals could get the job done. So they ordered Primus not to show his hands.

Yeah idk. So long as TLT doesn't retcon the Progenitors, I don't much care.

- - - Updated - - -

The possibility of the 7th being Azeroth and the Worldsouls could make sense. I always saw it as the 7th seeking Azeroth, and the First Ones trying to hide her from it...

But what if it's more like the 7th didn't want to be part of this, and was forced into slumber by the other 6? Afterall, Firim did say there were 2 songs, and yet only 1 could be. We know the Worldsouls also sing their own unique song, and that beings such as Azeroth have their own motives separate from the Titans. As for Zovaal's fear? He apparently felt it while judging souls, and N'Zoth fears "what is to come" as well. But we know he wants Azeroth's power to stop what is coming. Wouldn't that be a contradiction? Likely. But, on the off chance it ain't, it would likely just mean Zovaal didn't know of Azeroth's true nature fully, same with N'Zoth.

So, maybe, instead of there being some mega big bad that's out there, separate from the Progenitors, the 7th was within our own cosmology this entire time?

What about the saying "the 7th covets what the 6 hold fast" then? You can simply say it seeks to consume the pattern the 6 are trying to keep in place, idk.
Ofc, I still think the 7th is a separate thing entire, but on the off chance it isn't, it would definitely fit the Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth inspiration Azeroth and the First Ones seem to have lol

What do y'all think?

It's probably going to be a Super old god, the Serpent with Eyes which could be a unique super old god similar to Yshaaji as he's always so different. Or the Devourers overmind. Whatever it is, it'll be a being stronger than everything in the verse besides Sargeras and we'll need to do the impossible to beat it which is to break Sargeras out of prison and give him his sword back.

Didn't consider that the Primus could use the Scourge, possibly to help Odyn if they are aligned against the mortals.

That would be great, The Primus will use the Scourge to it's full potential and reveal his true powers. Mastermind Primus would be stronger than Argus, Zovaal, and even Dimensius and Xal'atath but still weaker than Sargeras, the Prime Titans which he works for, and the prime old gods plus future Azshara.

[Joshuaj]

"Cosmic machinery which cheapens everything and removes free will"

Well, that seemingly only applied to the covenant realms (which, even then, that didn't fully apply, as apparently folks like Draka can go to another afterlife after fulfilling specific duties), and we literally changed it to where free will was a bigger factor in these realms, and thus made the Afterlife function better as a result.

Heck, the new Arbiter even has a thing called the Crown of Wills, which was used in 9.2 to amplify our free will against Zovaal's domination. Alas, people like to forget that part...

[LarryWithTheWeatherReport]

Also the true great Demon Chaos kings within the deepest most twisted and fucked up parts of the Twisting Nether, shits that would make Freddy Krutger shit his pants even.

The next chronicles and last titan is definitely going to reveal a huge surprise as quote by Metzen "We are not prepared!"

So the balance of the cosmic chart will be thrown out the window with the Titans and the twisting nether being more involved with far greater more powerful stuff than we ever seen. And even a being or two that can finally rival even Sargeras in power.

The Twisting Nether! The source of the deepest and sickest evil you can possibly imagine.

[Joshuaj]

Oh, did I forget to add that there are an infinite amount of afterlives that range from paradise realms, to religious afterlives, etc? Again, most folks choose to forget that for some reason (I know the reason ofc ;P). Only the covenants felt too ordered, and I'm fairly certain that was for a specific reason beyond just "oh yeah, Death has to function this way to keep things balanced and running".

- - - Updated - - -

Larry, why do you believe that a Demon King exists in the Nether? Everything pre-Legion implied the Nether was simply pure anarchy demon-wise.

[LarryWithTheWeatherReport]

Larry, why do you believe that a Demon King exists in the Nether? Everything pre-Legion implied the Nether was simply pure anarchy.

Whether we like it or not and I especially love it, but you can bet your ass that Master Metzen/Blizz is definitely going to introduce some new future heavy hitters once the Twisiting Nether gets more involved and it will eventually with how these stories are. And I for one welcome the great Twisting King to will show everyone how business is done. They'll be the meanest baddest, toughest characters of WoW. I'm talking all killers no fillers, the real deal in power. We're going to need Sargeras's help for that one. A idea similar to the poster Golden Yak's idea.

[Joshuaj]

"But let me approach this from a Doylist angle - what the writers are actually doing - and address the "why hide from mortals" question:
The perspective problem:
When you're inside a system, a being who was created as part of it - you don't question the architecture. This is just reality. You can think of the residents of the Shadowlands like the prisoners in Plato's Cave. This is all they've known so why question it."

This is a nice argument. Counter-argument: That's not at all how the Titans have been shown to do things. They like to take credit for EVERYTHING!!!

- - - Updated - - -

So them ordering the Shadowlands and making up entities to place the credit or blame on legit wouldn't make sense.

[JDBlou]

There's a massive difference between "the Titans organize things" and "the Titans violated cosmic boundaries they had no authority over." One is maintenance, the other is imperialistic overreach. The dragon's lore book and Sylvanas both use language that suggests the latter - questioning whether creation happened or unwanted ordering was imposed.

On, Draka - "you can transfer to a different afterlife after fulfilling your assigned duties" is just moving between prisons with extra steps. That's not freedom, that's parole. Who cares if the next prison is rolling endless fields? It's still in the prison system, it's just minimum security prison.

And honestly, if you're not willing to discuss authorial intent and narrative construction (Doylist vs Watsonian perspectives), you're missing the entire point of analyzing what the writers are doing versus what characters believe. Chronicle being from a Titan POV isn't a fun fact: it's crucial context for understanding unreliable narration.

On, "Titans take credit for everything" - You're conflating two different audiences and timeframes.
To mortals on Azeroth: Yes, Titans took credit for everything - ordering worlds, creating Keepers, shaping civilizations, denying advances made by the Black Empire/rewriting history as the victor. That's the propaganda working as intended.
To cosmic forces they violated: They couldn't take credit. You can't walk into the Shadowlands and announce "I, Aman'thul, reorganized your entire afterlife, you're welcome" when those beings predate you or exist outside your authority. So you create the First Ones mythology - ancient precursors that everyone defers to, including you. It provides cover. It's Divine Right of Kings on Cosmic Scale: "It's just the way things are, I'm as mad about the system as you. Oh well"
The Titans take credit where they have power. They deflect to mythology where they're exposed as intruders.
Notably, mortals only learned about the First Ones when we physically entered the Shadowlands - a domain where Titan authority doesn't directly apply. That's when the cover story became necessary.

The text is explicitly questioning Titan narratives. You can choose to ignore that, but it doesn't make the foreshadowing disappear.

[LarryWithTheWeatherReport]

There's a massive difference between "the Titans organize things" and "the Titans violated cosmic boundaries they had no authority over." One is maintenance, the other is imperialistic overreach. The dragon's lore book and Sylvanas both use language that suggests the latter - questioning whether creation happened or unwanted ordering was imposed.
Re: Draka - "you can transfer to a different afterlife after fulfilling your assigned duties" is just moving between prisons with extra steps. That's not freedom, that's parole.
And honestly, if you're not willing to discuss authorial intent and narrative construction (Doylist vs Watsonian perspectives), you're missing the entire point of analyzing what the writers are doing versus what characters believe. Chronicle being from a Titan POV isn't a fun fact - it's crucial context for understanding unreliable narration.

Re: "Titans take credit for everything" - You're conflating two different audiences and timeframes.
To mortals on Azeroth: Yes, Titans took credit for everything - ordering worlds, creating Keepers, shaping civilizations, denying advances made by the Black Empire/rewriting history as the victor. That's the propaganda working as intended.
To cosmic forces they violated: They couldn't take credit. You can't walk into the Shadowlands and announce "I, Aman'thul, reorganized your entire afterlife, you're welcome" when those beings predate you or exist outside your authority. So you create the First Ones mythology - ancient precursors that everyone defers to, including you. It provides cover.
The Titans take credit where they have power. They deflect to mythology where they're exposed as intruders.
Notably, mortals only learned about the First Ones when we physically entered the Shadowlands - a domain where Titan authority doesn't directly apply. That's when the cover story became necessary.
The text is explicitly questioning Titan narratives. You can choose to ignore that, but it doesn't make the foreshadowing disappear.

This sounds interesting, wouldn't mind this being the case as that's some deep thinking.

I'll be cool either way even if the Titans did just walked in and demanded everything and the Primus just submitted to them due to their powers. The primus is a master tactician so he probably calculated the odds of winning against them to be 0%.

From other past stories I can see the Primus giving that excuse when we finally expose him as a Titan simp/worshipper. He'll say things like "I had no choice! I had to do what they do told me to in order to protect the Shadowlands" or something like that. Similar how it plays out in other franchises where a character sold out his own people. Primus caught in 4K incoming.

Also a good way to expose the Titans trying to keep world souls from other forces while collecting them all themselves which would be why they're so much more OP compared to everything unless it's by one of their own aka Sargeras.

But that's if they go that route cause I like your deeper more clever Titan making the story route too.

- - - Updated - - -

Chronicles 5 the uncensored, unrated, unedited by the Titans lore book for 2027 hopefully.

[Joshuaj]

There's a massive difference between "the Titans organize things" and "the Titans violated cosmic boundaries they had no authority over." One is maintenance, the other is imperialistic overreach. The dragon's lore book and Sylvanas both use language that suggests the latter - questioning whether creation happened or unwanted ordering was imposed.

On, Draka - "you can transfer to a different afterlife after fulfilling your assigned duties" is just moving between prisons with extra steps. That's not freedom, that's parole. Who cares if the next prison is rolling endless fields? It's still in the prison system, it's just minimum security prison.

And honestly, if you're not willing to discuss authorial intent and narrative construction (Doylist vs Watsonian perspectives), you're missing the entire point of analyzing what the writers are doing versus what characters believe. Chronicle being from a Titan POV isn't a fun fact - it's crucial context for understanding unreliable narration.

On, "Titans take credit for everything" - You're conflating two different audiences and timeframes.
To mortals on Azeroth: Yes, Titans took credit for everything - ordering worlds, creating Keepers, shaping civilizations, denying advances made by the Black Empire/rewriting history as the victor. That's the propaganda working as intended.
To cosmic forces they violated: They couldn't take credit. You can't walk into the Shadowlands and announce "I, Aman'thul, reorganized your entire afterlife, you're welcome" when those beings predate you or exist outside your authority. So you create the First Ones mythology - ancient precursors that everyone defers to, including you. It provides cover. It's Divine Right of Kings on Cosmic Scale: "It's just the way things are, I'm as mad about the system as you. Oh well"
The Titans take credit where they have power. They deflect to mythology where they're exposed as intruders.
Notably, mortals only learned about the First Ones when we physically entered the Shadowlands - a domain where Titan authority doesn't directly apply. That's when the cover story became necessary.

The text is explicitly questioning Titan narratives. You can choose to ignore that, but it doesn't make the foreshadowing disappear.

I really don't think the Titans care as much about stepping over cosmic boundaries as you think they do. Also, I don't wish to discuss doylist or watsonian perspectives, because ultimately, I just find it a silly way of saying "oh yeah, here is the explanation in-universe vs this is the explanation out of universe).

As for everything else, it honestly sounds like a flawed and confusing way to retcon a narrative you and others simply didn't like.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, regarding this: "So you create the First Ones mythology - ancient precursors that everyone defers to, including you. It provides cover."

What would be your explanation then regarding Odyn's knowledge of the First Ones? Especially since you claim the Progenitor mythology lie would only really apply to the Shadowlands and other cosmic realms?

- - - Updated - - -

Why have Odyn tell the other Keepers not to mention them in documents on Azeroth?

"Oh. Well he didn't want Azerothians to get tied up in the Titans made-up myth"

Even though that's not at all what Odyn said in his explanation...

- - - Updated - - -

Unless you think the Titans lied to the Keepers as well, which I'd then ask why, as you said the Titans can easily take credit for creating things on Azeroth, as it's not a cosmic realm or anything, so therefore no Progenitor lie should exist there, right?

- - - Updated - - -

Anyways, it's almost midnight for me, and I'm tired asf. Goodnight y'all.

[JDBlou]

I really don't think the Titans care as much about stepping over cosmic boundaries as you think they do. Also, I don't wish to discuss doylist or watsonian perspectives, because ultimately, I just find it a silly way of saying "oh yeah, here is the explanation in-universe vs this is the explanation out of universe).

As for everything else, it honestly sounds like a flawed and confusing way to retcon a narrative you and others simply didn't like.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, regarding this: "So you create the First Ones mythology - ancient precursors that everyone defers to, including you. It provides cover."

What would be your explanation then regarding Odyn's knowledge of the First Ones? Especially since you claim the Progenitor mythology lie would only really apply to the Shadowlands and other cosmic realms?

- - - Updated - - -

Why have Odyn tell the other Keepers not to mention them in documents on Azeroth?

"Oh. Well he didn't want Azerothians to get tied up in the Titans made-up myth"

Even though that's not at all what Odyn said in his explanation...

Describing Shadowlands writing as "disliked" is like describing the Titanic as a boat that got a bit wet. I'm not even saying abandon ship, I'm saying what the intent seems to be like with the Broker retcon to be Ethereals in another plane, or Denathrius escaping a planned death because he was a highlight, and his performance liked by the narrative team. If anything it'd be aligned with the philosophy of "take what works with Shadowlands tie it to the canon people like, recontextualise what you can and memory-hole the rest." This feels perfectly in-line with that philosophy.

Regarding the Edicts:

It's a document where Odyn admits to purging historical records and falsifying narratives to control mortal perception. And you think this disproves the theory that Titans would create false mythology to cover their actions?

The parallel is there if you look:

Reality: Advanced civilization with its own achievements
Titan narrative: "Chaos and misery, pernicious blight"
Method: Purge records, allow no contradictions
Justification: "If you care for mortals, don't lead them astray"
Sound familiar? Let's apply the same template to First Ones:

Reality: Titans violated cosmic boundaries and imposed Order
Titan narrative: "Ancient Progenitors designed everything this way"
Method: Don't mention them in Azerothian records, compartmentalize knowledge
Justification: "Mortals can't handle cosmic complexity"

On Azeroth,
Because it's not a cosmic realm is the exact reason you don't need a Progenitor Lie, it's not violation of another force's sovereign realm and installation of puppet rulers who dance along to your tune. Azeroth's reality, the material plane. Neutral ground to which none of the six forces have prior claim. The authority on Azeroth is defensible as work of the Titans, you don't have to defer to "cosmic rules" saying "oh yeah, that's just how the cosmos works, is what it is. Sorry about your sovereignity "

One is trespass you're fudging the record on, one is appearing as benevolent god creator.

[Joshuaj]

Describing Shadowlands writing as "disliked" is like describing the Titanic as a boat that got a bit wet. I'm not even saying abandon ship, I'm saying what the intent seems to be like with the Broker retcon to be Ethereals in another plane, or Denathrius escaping a planned death because he was a highlight, and his performance liked by the narrative team. If anything it'd be aligned with the philosophy of "take what works with Shadowlands tie it to the canon people like, recontextualise what you can and memory-hole the rest." This feels perfectly in-line with that philosophy.

Regarding the Edicts:

It's a document where Odyn admits to purging historical records and falsifying narratives to control mortal perception. And you think this disproves the theory that Titans would create false mythology to cover their actions?

The parallel is there if you look:

Reality: Advanced civilization with its own achievements
Titan narrative: "Chaos and misery, pernicious blight"
Method: Purge records, allow no contradictions
Justification: "If you care for mortals, don't lead them astray"
Sound familiar? Let's apply the same template to First Ones:

Reality: Titans violated cosmic boundaries and imposed Order
Titan narrative: "Ancient Progenitors designed everything this way"
Method: Don't mention them in Azerothian records, compartmentalize knowledge
Justification: "Mortals can't handle cosmic complexity"

Because it's not a cosmic realm is the exact reason you don't need a Progenitor Lie, it's not violation of another force's sovereign realm, it's reality, the material plain, neutral ground to which none of the six forces have inherent claim.

It just seems very confusing for no reason.

Making up a Progenitor narrative in the cosmic domains just to argue it as an absolute fact that mortals shouldn't know about on Azeroth is very weird, and honestly kinda makes the Titans look silly.

Also, I need folks to realize that reality is more than just the Dark Beyond. It's existence itself.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Powerscaling is off-topic and I think generally risky because it risks sidelining personality and character for power, but if I had to go ahead:

Azeroth¹ -> Sargeras -> the Pantheon -> Malformed Legion Argus -> Dimensius² -> Deathwing -> Old Gods (released but not "full power", e.g. BfA N'Zoth)³ -> Xal'atath⁴ -> Kil'Jaeden & Archimonde -> Old Gods (weakened chains; raid conditions for Yogg & C'thun) -> Azshara -> Lich King Arthas -> Illidan⁵ -> Mannoroth

¹ a genuine Mary Sue, up there with Arator or Med'an, and not even an entertaining one. She has no personality but all the power, you could replace her with a big hidden magical artifact or the planet itself and little would change other than Sargy's pedoboner and Muh Nightmares. Being powerful doesn't make her interesting.
² another reminder that being powerful doesn't make you a good character, nor preclude the plot demanding you lose anyway; he's absolutely characterized as powerful, given we need ribbons to not be obliterated by his presence, and he's also rightly jettisoned out of the plot as quickly as possible because he has no personality other than "eats planets". Could he have been actually characterized in a way that wouldn't result in him needing to be removed from the plot as the dead end he is? I could think of a few ways. Was he? No. This is probably the best use of him without somehow conjuring character for him, and his power doesn't salvage him alone.
³ "But aren't they Deathwing's bosses/responsible for corrupting him" is the reasonable objection you'll probably have, but my reason for ranking them here is that this list is prioritizing offensive power, which is what I'm assuming is the objective with powerscaling. The question is closer to "who would win in a fight", not "who has more power" in a broad sense. It would easily go to the old gods if this weren't weighted in favor of offensive power, since even a sealed N'Zoth was able to transform the Naga in an instant, something Azshara evidently was hopeless to do. In terms of "real" power, general ability to make things happen and influence them, the Old Gods rank much, much higher — Deathwing couldn't create the Curse of Flesh or the Emerald Nightmare — but if I had to work around the various definitions of power and adjust weightings with more nuance, this would be more difficult.
⁴ I'm actually a little reluctant to put her this high, but I'm going off the rough fact Archimonde needed a ritual to destroy Dalaran, albeit one organized quickly and with very little preparation, while Xal'Atath did it pretty much instantly; that said, I think it's close between her and Archimonde.
⁵ cuck.

Trying to extend to cover things like Ula'tek or "X full power" (with the exception of the old gods, since I think there's solid enough evidence their power has been somehow restrained) seems too speculative and I'm accordingly not bothering with. Zovaal is such an unbelievable cipher and the official statements around him ("Titan++") don't save him from being impossible to realistically gauge, especially since his demonstrated ability of being unable to kill the most useless member of the entire BlandGang heavily contradicts that. It took power-ups to defeat him, but those power-ups are also impossible to scale relatively to anything else.

[Joshuaj]

Things like the K'areshi retcon can work cause it's not dismantling a major narrative point. It's changing an early statement of the Brokers origin and applying more context to it (and let's face it, idek if said original origin applied in the game, and it was heavily talked about in the beginning that clear connections existed with the Brokers and the Ethereals. Blizzard only needed to double down on it, which they did). As for Denathrius surviving? Again, it's not changing much, as Denathrius's initial story was still played out, and he can fulfill a future narrative doesn't involve Zovaal.

- - - Updated - - -

Powerscaling is off-topic and I think generally risky because it risks sidelining personality and character for power, but if I had to go ahead:

Azeroth¹ -> Sargeras -> the Pantheon -> Malformed Legion Argus -> Dimensius² -> Deathwing -> Old Gods (released, e.g. BfA N'Zoth)³ -> Xal'atath⁴ -> Kil'Jaeden & Archimonde -> Old Gods (weakened chains; raid conditions for Yogg & C'thun) -> Azshara -> Lich King Arthas -> Illidan⁵ -> Mannoroth

¹ a genuine Mary Sue, up there with Arator or Med'an, and not even an entertaining one. She has no personality but all the power, you could replace her with a big hidden magical artifact or the planet itself and little would change other than Sargy's pedoboner and Muh Nightmares. Being powerful doesn't make her interesting.
² another reminder that being powerful doesn't make you a good character, nor preclude the plot demanding you lose anyway; he's absolutely characterized as powerful, given we need ribbons to not be obliterated by his presence, and he's also rightly jettisoned out of the plot as quickly as possible because he has no personality other than "eats planets". Could he have been actually characterized in a way that wouldn't result in him needing to be removed from the plot as the dead end he is? I could think of a few ways. Was he? No. This is probably the best use of him without somehow conjuring character for him, and his power doesn't salvage him alone.
³ "But aren't they Deathwing's bosses/responsible for corrupting him" is the reasonable objection you'll probably have, but my reason for ranking them here is that this list is prioritizing offensive power, which is what I'm assuming is the objective with powerscaling. The question is closer to "who would win in a fight", not "who has more power" in a broad sense. It would easily go to the old gods if this weren't weighted in favor of offensive power, since even a sealed N'Zoth was able to transform the Naga in an instant, something Azshara evidently was hopeless to do. In terms of "real" power, general ability to make things happen and influence them, the Old Gods rank much, much higher, but if I had to work around the various definitions of power and adjust weightings with more nuance, this would be more difficult.
⁴ I'm actually a little reluctant to put her this high, but I'm going off the rough fact Archimonde needed a ritual to destroy Dalaran, albeit one organized quickly and with very little preparation, while Xal'Atath did it pretty much instantly; that said, I think it's close between her and Archimonde.
⁵ cuck.

Trying to extend to cover things like Ula'tek or "X full power" seems too speculative and I'm accordingly not bothering with. Zovaal is such an unbelievable cipher and the official statements around him ("Titan++") don't save him from being impossible to realistically gauge, especially since his demonstrated ability of being unable to kill the most useless member of the entire BlandGang heavily contradicts that. It took power-ups to defeat him, but those power-ups are also impossible to scale relatively to anything else.

Where's Zovaal?

Also, I will admit, I am actually getting tired of talking power scaling and cosmic lore altogether, as it almost always enters that same ole nonsense of "well, this is bullshit anyways" or "well, nobody likes this and Blizzard can and likely will retcon it, even though I have no proof outside of some vague statements that may or may not feed into my retcon idea".

It's boring. And some of the arguments I see are either contradictory or are reaching in pretty big ways.

- - - Updated - - -

Who knows, maybe Blizzard will retcon the First Ones. I personally don't see it and I think the idea genuinely sucks, but hey, I know about as much as everyone else on the matter lol.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Where's Zovaal?

You missed it, I explain his absence at the end:

Zovaal is such an unbelievable cipher and the official statements around him ("Titan++") don't save him from being impossible to realistically gauge, especially since his demonstrated ability of being unable to kill the most useless member of the entire BlandGang heavily contradicts that. It took power-ups to defeat him, but those power-ups are also impossible to scale relatively to anything else.

It's impossible to rank him because there's no consistency around his power in any meaningful way.