The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Cheezits]

Haven't seen it said but the end of the Lightblind Vanguard fight has them straight up get killed by us. Welp. Repercussions when?

[Makabreska]

Haven't seen it said but the end of the Lightblind Vanguard fight has them straight up get killed by us. Welp. Repercussions when?

I mean, we already go against Lorthraxion in Nexus-Point Xenas. Going against Army of Light was bound to happen since BfA.

Also, trash leading to Lightblinded Vanguard has us fight them for a moment as they literally loose their marbles to the Light, so maybe that's a mitigating circumstance?

[Cheezits]

I mean, we already go against Lorthraxion in Nexus-Point Xenas. Going against Army of Light was bound to happen since BfA.

Also, trash leading to Lightblinded Vanguard has us fight them for a moment as they literally loose their marbles to the Light, so maybe that's a mitigating circumstance?

Lol, the buff they get is "Lightmadness" so they aren't even subtle about it. Also Turalyon doesn't seem to succumb to it.

[Makabreska]

Lol, the buff they get is "Lightmadness" so they aren't even subtle about it. Also Turalyon doesn't seem to succumb to it.

He kinda left the Army after Legion, so I guess the influence is smaller...for now. If he is to succumb, they will leave it for later, for a much bigger dramatic moment.

[milkmustache]

Lol, the buff they get is "Lightmadness" so they aren't even subtle about it. Also Turalyon doesn't seem to succumb to it.

Not to poke and prod at every little detail, but man is it tiresome to see any sort of affliction be a madlibs of a cosmic power and adjective. Lightblind, Lightmad, Voidtouched, Felscarred, etc. Its really just a bit boring. There's potential that it's just a placeholder for now.

I'm excited for the post-Cosmic era in WoW, at this rate it's really just cycling through the same things with different magic to the point where it feels like the only difference between any of them is the color. Super sentai approach.

[GeometryWizard]

Not to poke and prod at every little detail, but man is it tiresome to see any sort of affliction be a madlibs of a cosmic power and adjective. Lightblind, Lightmad, Voidtouched, Felscarred, etc. Its really just a bit boring. There's potential that it's just a placeholder for now.

I'm excited for the post-Cosmic era in WoW, at this rate it's really just cycling through the same things with different magic to the point where it feels like the only difference between any of them is the color. Super sentai approach.

I am just waiting for the day they "reveal" that Arthas was Lightmad all along and that's why he did every bad thing in his life since nobody has any agency anymore and every character is just a timid humble robot that needs to be put down if they express too much emotion or ambition

[Viridiel]

Always found it weird that the Elemental Ring was deemed to be "lesser" than the Cosmic Ring, when it imo is just as important as the other "higher" forces.

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Kinda doesn't help that the Cosmic Chart has the forces point towards the Elemental Ring and the Dark Beyond, as they exist in the center.

The behind-the-scenes for the Chronicle cosmology, Palawltar's Codex, and Liadrin's conversation with Regald Hornfyre taken together very strongly imply that the elements are the result of combinations of the magical expressions of the cosmic forces in reality (e.g., Fire is Holy+Fel, Water is Nature+Arcane, etc.). Singular expressions like Arcane and Void are inherently unstable and like to combine with other types of magic, which in turn creates the elements. That means the elements are a big deal for Reality and form the basis of almost everything we interact with (hence "elemental"), whereas the cosmic forces are a bigger deal on a cosmic level. I don't think everything needs a cosmic force to represent it to be considered important.

[Joshuaj]

The behind-the-scenes for the Chronicle cosmology, Palawltar's Codex, and Liadrin's conversation with Regald Hornfyre taken together very strongly imply that the elements are the result of combinations of the magical expressions of the cosmic forces in reality (e.g., Fire is Holy+Fel, Water is Nature+Arcane, etc.). Singular expressions like Arcane and Void are inherently unstable and like to combine with other types of magic, which in turn creates the elements. That means the elements are a big deal for Reality and form the basis of almost everything we interact with (hence "elemental"), whereas the cosmic forces are a bigger deal on a cosmic level. I don't think everything needs a cosmic force to represent it to be considered important.

Ahhh, that makes sense. Just makes me wonder if there's something extra to properly connect these then, or whatever. For example, why is there a supposed "emotional" duality with these elements? Why do mortals have free will? Why does everyone call us "aberrations"?

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Not to poke and prod at every little detail, but man is it tiresome to see any sort of affliction be a madlibs of a cosmic power and adjective. Lightblind, Lightmad, Voidtouched, Felscarred, etc. Its really just a bit boring. There's potential that it's just a placeholder for now.

I'm excited for the post-Cosmic era in WoW, at this rate it's really just cycling through the same things with different magic to the point where it feels like the only difference between any of them is the color. Super sentai approach.

TBH there is a bit of poignant eldritch horror going on in WoW right now, where mortals are simply tools of greater powers and their games, when they even care and it's not just mortals getting burned with powers far too great to comprehend.

The lack of agency is actually terrifying from a worldbuilding standpoint.

[Cheezits]

Not to poke and prod at every little detail, but man is it tiresome to see any sort of affliction be a madlibs of a cosmic power and adjective. Lightblind, Lightmad, Voidtouched, Felscarred, etc. Its really just a bit boring. There's potential that it's just a placeholder for now.

I think the idea that the Light is suddenly acting up and "unmasking" as Xal gets so close to winning (and she may win after all) is actually an interesting idea, be it the Light as a whole or the thing that is controlling it at the current moment. It's also cool how it may be tied to the Titans or their loss in TLT. The Titan/Light shenanigans will definitely play into TLT at this rate and probably bleed into the next arc.

But the terms Lightblind and Lightmad are dumb. They should come up with a cooler name that is more fitting- even if it's a more alien concept or name that cozycore dummies won't understand. Like if it was some Draenei name for madness or zealotry that would be interesting.

As Megamind says: presentation!

[Sondrelk]

Around next week we should get Roadmap. I guess Retail will be pretty straightforward - Midnight/small patches/12.1/Blizzcon. Would be nice to have more than 1 Remix during expansion, especially since there is only 1 Legion size left (BfA), other are either 3 tier (or smaller, looking at you WoD) or doesn't have much going on beside raids/dungeons (pre-MoP).

Classic could be more interesting, cause its time to reveal plans post MoP. One of possibilities (transfer to Retail) would bring huuuuge shitstorm about old FOMO items.

I wonder what kind of minor or not so minor features the patches will have. One one hand I imagine the devs would love to be able to promise all kinds of fun stuff for housing. On the other, promising stuff is always a double edged sword in marketing.

As always, I will hold out hope against hope for Dracthyr transmog. Dracthyr heritage might be the catalyst for that, and it does make some sense that the devs might want to get to that quickly so all playavne races has a heritage armour available. But on the other, they might just wait until TLT when Dragons are more relevant again.

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I think the idea that the Light is suddenly acting up and "unmasking" as Xal gets so close to winning (and she may win after all) is actually an interesting idea, be it the Light as a whole or the thing that is controlling it at the current moment. It's also cool how it may be tied to the Titans or their loss in TLT. The Titan/Light shenanigans will definitely play into TLT at this rate and probably bleed into the next arc.

But the terms Lightblind and Lightmad are dumb. They should come up with a cooler name that is more fitting- even if it's a more alien concept or name that cozycore dummies won't understand. Like if it was some Draenei name for madness or zealotry that would be interesting.

As Megamind says: presentation!

A simple explanation that void and light becomes more pronounced in proximity to the other would do wonders. Would also give a good explanation for why Almeria is acting increasingly erratic.
The bad traits of the Light are becoming more pronounced as the Void invasion continues. And what starts as zealotry, increases to madness and the afflicted becoming Lightblinded

And yes, it is a terrible word to use. Though I suppose they need a descriptive adjectives that can be used to quickly establish what is happening. So Light[something] might have been inevitable.

[Joshuaj]

The behind-the-scenes for the Chronicle cosmology, Palawltar's Codex, and Liadrin's conversation with Regald Hornfyre taken together very strongly imply that the elements are the result of combinations of the magical expressions of the cosmic forces in reality (e.g., Fire is Holy+Fel, Water is Nature+Arcane, etc.). Singular expressions like Arcane and Void are inherently unstable and like to combine with other types of magic, which in turn creates the elements. That means the elements are a big deal for Reality and form the basis of almost everything we interact with (hence "elemental"), whereas the cosmic forces are a bigger deal on a cosmic level. I don't think everything needs a cosmic force to represent it to be considered important.

I looked more into this, and it sounds less like they're a mixture of different powers, but more like different types of powers mix and match depending on the source.

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I think the idea that the Light is suddenly acting up and "unmasking" as Xal gets so close to winning (and she may win after all) is actually an interesting idea, be it the Light as a whole or the thing that is controlling it at the current moment. It's also cool how it may be tied to the Titans or their loss in TLT. The Titan/Light shenanigans will definitely play into TLT at this rate and probably bleed into the next arc.

But the terms Lightblind and Lightmad are dumb. They should come up with a cooler name that is more fitting- even if it's a more alien concept or name that cozycore dummies won't understand. Like if it was some Draenei name for madness or zealotry that would be interesting.

As Megamind says: presentation!

Hey, remember when there was a whisper that said "The Light has made a bargain with the enemy of all"? Is it possible the "enemy of all" might be Azeroth, and the Light made a pact with it? Would explain certain things in the Worldsoul Saga.

I say Azeroth might be the 7th and the enemy of all, cause she's seemingly so against the other forces and their nonsense. Not to mention my other arguments in previous posts.

[Viridiel]

I looked more into this, and it sounds less like they're a mixture of different powers, but more like different types of powers mix and match depending on the source.

I'm not sure what you mean. That sounds like the same thing.

The Sacred Flame is confirmed to be Arcane+Holy, and is referred to as an "element of faith" (after Liadrin asks if the arathi tap into the Elemental Plane). The BTS for Chronicle doesn't explicitly say that each element is a combination of forces, but that two elements are primarily associated with each force. Taken together with the statement in Palawltar's Codex that magic types are unstable and want to combine, the implication is definitely that all of the elements are combinations of magic types. According to the Codex there are 15 in total, one is explicitly confirmed and another 6 are implied, with 8 unknown.

That said, we know that types of magic aren't necessarily tied to a particular cosmic force, they just have a particular force that they're usually an expression of. If Decay is the combination of Necromantic and Void magic, the Light-based Necromantic magic that was used to resurrect Calia would probably create a different kind of Decay than it would if it were the standard Death-based kind. That might account for all of the different flavours of elemental magic we see. I don't think that's a particularly interesting can of worms, though.

It's possible that the arathi are wrong about the Sacred Flame being elemental at all and the elements are something beyond/other than the cosmic forces and just happen to align with overlaps of the cosmic forces, but that seems very odd to me. At the very least, "storm magic" seem to be cosmically significant, at least to the titans.

[Joshuaj]

I'm not sure what you mean. That sounds like the same thing.

The Sacred Flame is confirmed to be Arcane+Holy, and is referred to as an "element of faith" (after Liadrin asks if the arathi tap into the Elemental Plane). The BTS for Chronicle doesn't explicitly say that each element is a combination of forces, but that two elements are primarily associated with each force. Taken together with the statement in Palawltar's Codex that magic types are unstable and want to combine, the implication is definitely that all of the elements are combinations of magic types. According to the Codex there are 15 in total, one is explicitly confirmed and another 6 are implied, with 8 unknown.

That said, we know that types of magic aren't necessarily tied to a particular cosmic force, they just have a particular force that they're usually an expression of. If Decay is the combination of Necromantic and Void magic, the Light-based Necromantic magic that was used to resurrect Calia would probably create a different kind of Decay than it would if it were the standard Death-based kind. That might account for all of the different flavours of elemental magic we see. I don't think that's a particularly interesting can of worms, though.

It's possible that the arathi are wrong about the Sacred Flame being elemental at all and the elements are something beyond/other than the cosmic forces and just happen to align with overlaps of the cosmic forces, but that seems very odd to me. At the very least, "storm magic" seem to be cosmically significant, at least to the titans.

It being Light + Arcane is not really what he said. This is the full context:

Regald Hornfyre says: In many ways it's an element of faith. The Sacred Flame isn't a being or energy from the Firelands, nor any specific plane, but the representation of belief.
Regald Hornfyre says: It's not just holy nor just arcane, but both, and neither. Coming from us, and existing as a radiant force throughout the cosmos.

Because it's, to them, an element of faith, it can exist as both Arcane and Holy energies, or neither. It's not really a unique thing either. Different applications of belief regarding the Light go through the same thing.

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Regald Hornfyre says: The Sacred Flame comes from within, much like the Light. But it's also an external source, much like the Light. It just has more... physical applications, given its flammability.

There are fires with the Sacred Flame, but the fires and overall energies of the Sacred Flame are fueled by belief. Belief is a powerful tool in general for the Light, so it makes sense.

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In regards to Chronicle, it is true that the different elements are connected to the forces in some way, but that's more-so required for the creation of the bigger whole lol.

[Viridiel]

It being Light + Arcane is not really what he said. This is the full context:

Regald Hornfyre says: In many ways it's an element of faith. The Sacred Flame isn't a being or energy from the Firelands, nor any specific plane, but the representation of belief.
Regald Hornfyre says: It's not just holy nor just arcane, but both, and neither. Coming from us, and existing as a radiant force throughout the cosmos.

Because it's, to them, an element of faith, it can exist as both Arcane and Holy energies, or neither. It's not really a unique thing either. Different applications of belief regarding the Light go through the same thing.

Do you mean to say that your interpretation is that the Sacred Flame can be used to fuel any type of magic and he only mentioned Holy and Arcane because those are the other types of magic the arathi use? I think that's possible, but it leaves me scratching my head over why the elements were incorporated into the Chronicle cosmology with the express purpose of showing the relationships between the magic types and the elements.

[Auxis]

I'm starting to think they're something else. Especially with the implications from these last few expacs.

I'm thinking maybe they have multiple potential forms they can hatch into, and something happened to cause Aman'thul (first to wake up, allegedly) wake up as an Ordered god. But that doesn't explain Argus as he was first founded by Sargeras, unless all of the world souls were affected in the same way as Aman'thul was.

I'm also of the belief that the 'Void Titan' wasn't intended to be a literal Void Titan, but rather a descriptor of how powerful said being would be.

[Joshuaj]

I'm thinking maybe they have multiple potential forms they can hatch into, and something happened to cause Aman'thul (first to wake up, allegedly) wake up as an Ordered god. But that doesn't explain Argus as he was first founded by Sargeras, unless all of the world souls were affected in the same way as Aman'thul was.

I'm also of the belief that the 'Void Titan' wasn't intended to be a literal Void Titan, but rather a descriptor of how powerful said being would be.

Considering Sargeras wanted to make a Dark Pantheon of Order, he most definitely pumped Argus with Order magic lmao

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Do you mean to say that your interpretation is that the Sacred Flame can be used to fuel any type of magic and he only mentioned Holy and Arcane because those are the other types of magic the arathi use? I think that's possible, but it leaves me scratching my head over why the elements were incorporated into the Chronicle cosmology with the express purpose of showing the relationships between the magic types and the elements.

I mean, my interpretation is that the Sacred Flame manifests specific magics based off ones belief in it, similar to how the Night Elf priestesses channel Elune's light, or how the Humans channel the light in Stormwind.

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Also, the relationship with the Elements and the Cosmic Influences is arguably a less transcendent version of the Cosmic Influences and their relationships with one another imo, especially since the Elements need the Cosmic Powers and vice versa to properly manifest the building blocks of existence.

[Viridiel]

I mean, my interpretation is that the Sacred Flame manifests specific magics based off ones belief in it, similar to how the Night Elf priestesses channel Elune's light, or how the Humans channel the light in Stormwind.

Isn't that the opposite of what Regald's saying? He's saying both Arcane and Holy can be found in the Sacred Flame, even though its true nature is both and neither. Your example is that the Light can be found in multiple things. It's not that the Sacred Flame is the source of magic via faith, but that it literally is faith made manifest.

Anyway, the actual point isn't so much about the metaphysical nature of elements, but just that they're accounted for by the cosmologies. It's possible that they're only able to manifest because of the influence of some hidden seventh force, but that doesn't seem to be the opinion of any of the in-universe authors of the cosmologies we know. The seventh force exists outside of everything we know in the universe (if it exists at all).

[Joshuaj]

Isn't that the opposite of what Regald's saying? He's saying both Arcane and Holy can be found in the Sacred Flame, even though its true nature is both and neither. Your example is that the Light can be found in multiple things. It's not that the Sacred Flame is the source of magic via faith, but that it literally is faith made manifest.

Anyway, the actual point isn't so much about the metaphysical nature of elements, but just that they're accounted for by the cosmologies. It's possible that they're only able to manifest because of the influence of some hidden seventh force, but that doesn't seem to be the opinion of any of the in-universe authors of the cosmologies we know. The seventh force exists outside of everything we know in the universe (if it exists at all).

Maybe I did get that part mixed up. But either way, it doesn't mention that the elements are a mixture of powers.

Also, regarding the 7th, it's entirely possible it exists within the cosmology. After all, Firim realized that instead of it seemingly being a separate song altogether, the 6 and the 7th were 2 songs that existed seemingly in tandem. However, the song seemed to suggest they didn't desire union. Both were, yet only 1 could be.

Maybe the 7th is a separate thing altogether, but the more I think about it, the more I start to doubt...

[Limayria]

I also think in regards to the sacred flame, prior to the current light infused sunwell for many high elves their faith would likely have been concentrated in the arcane; especially the elves who would have been with the Arathi on their expedition which probably plays a role