The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Jaggler]

If you're willing to claim that DF 10.0 -- 10.1.7 has just as much content as Legion 7.0 -- 7.2.5, be my guest. We all know that is not the case. Legion had way more content on launch than DF, while there was 5 months less between DF and SL. So I guess that evens out. Still makes no sense then why DF is a full tier behind in terms of patch content.

I think a lot of people are forgetting that, by this time in the expansion cycle (9 months in or so). Legion had already released 7.2.5.

Why is DF basically one cycle of patch content behind an expansion that had one cycle of patch content more dev time? I guess, we will never know.

Remember that 7.1.0 wasn't a huge patch. it had a megadungeon, of which 50% were reused assets, the Halls of Valor raid which als consisted of mostly reused assets and the Suramar questline. You can't compare that to f.e. 10.1 which introduced a new zone, a full new raid new rep, new outdoor content in the Dragon isles etc.

Not saying Legion had less launch content that DF, but if you draw a comparison, you should draw a fair one.

[micwini]

Why is DF basically one cycle of patch content behind an expansion that had one cycle of patch content more dev time? I guess, we will never know.

Remember that 7.1.0 wasn't a huge patch. it had a megadungeon, of which 50% were reused assets, the Halls of Valor raid which als consisted of mostly reused assets and the Suramar questline. You can't compare that to f.e. 10.1 which introduced a new zone, a full new raid new rep, new outdoor content in the Dragon isles etc.

Not saying Legion had less launch content that DF, but if you draw a comparison, you should draw a fair one.

Again with the patch numbers. We are at the same point in time where Legion had already 1 more major patch out. 5 months extra dev time yes, but that only accounts for either the massive amounts of launch content (easily twice that of DF, if not more) OR an entire content patch. Not both. Unless you think they pooped out 1.5-2 major patches worth of content in 5 months, which would be quite impressive. Legion just had way more content in a way shorter timespan, much more than 5 months of dev time could produce. It is obvious that whatever is going on at Blizzardo, its having a massive impact on the amount produced content.

Patch numbers don't matter. Look at the amount of content in regards to the timespan. That is what matters.

[Jaggler]

Again with the patch numbers. We are at the same point in time where Legion had already 1 more major patch out. 5 months extra dev time yes, but that only accounts for either the massive amounts of launch content (easily twice that of DF, if not more) OR an entire content patch. Not both. Unless you think they pooped out 1.5-2 major patches worth of content in 5 months, which would be quite impressive. Legion just had way more content in a way shorter timespan, much more than 5 months of dev time could produce. It is obvious that whatever is going on at Blizzardo, its having a massive impact on the amount produced content.

And as I said, one of those "major patches" (7.1) is something of the level of a .5 patch. Legion is one patch cycle "ahead" because it had one patch cycle more development time.

[micwini]

And as I said, one of those "major patches" (7.1) is something of the level 0f a .5 patch. Legion is one patch cycle "ahead" because it had one patch cycle more development time.

Ok lets compare what Legion and DF had/have in this same point in their expansion cycle:
( left out the inconsequential shit, i.e petbattle dungeons in Legion, etc.)

Legion:
6,5 zones (the .5 is the DH starting area, which isnt all that impressive and also largely part of their class hall)
New class (2 specs)
Class halls and all the content that came with it, for each class
Artifact weapon system
Minor profession overhaul
M+ system (since we're talking dev time, im including this, because it was designed from the ground up pre-legion)
World quest system
10,5 dungeons (including 7.2's Cathedral, which came out 7 months into Legion. The 0.5 is VH which is mostly recycled.
1 megadungeon
29 raidbosses, divided over 4 raids
Mage Tower
Legion assaults

DF:
6 zones (actually 5,5 because one of them is the recycled dracthyr starting zone, but I felt it added enough content to be counted)
Dragonriding System
New race/class combo (3 specs)
Major profession overhaul
Major talent overhaul
8 dungeons (one of which is largely recycled, but lets count it anyway)
1 megadungeon
17 raidbosses, divided over 2 raids
Time rifts
Dreamsurges (not yet out, but whatever)

The difference seems to be quite a lot more than '5 month's of extra dev time'. Lets also not forget that Legion was in a vastly more polished state compared to DF when it launched.

[Catastrophy349]

I’m on my phone, so I can’t really respond in the way I would prefer, however, @micwini let’s take other expansions OUT of this question for a second. What are your biggest “gripes” with Dragonflight? Additionally, I 100% agree with you that the .5/.7 patches are just “the rest of the prior “large patch” being fleshed out” versus us getting one “huge patch”, however, is that a bad thing (not saying it is or isn’t, I’m asking everyone for their perspective)?

[Dracullus]

So you purposfully omit the fact that DF has had far less content on launch than Legion?

I literally said Legion had more raid/dungeon content. Beside that? Hell no.

Even Shadowlands had more content on launch

Ok, I think we are just playing 2 different games.

Ok lets compare what Legion and DF had/have in this same point in their expansion cycle:
( left out the inconsequential shit, i.e petbattle dungeons in Legion, etc.)

Legion:
6,5 zones (the .5 is the DH starting area, which isnt all that impressive and also largely part of their class hall)

Very conveniently you ignore size of zones. And you count Broken Shore as full zone xD. And for some reason ignore existence of Zaralek. In DF EVERY big zone has size of Suramar - and has shit ton of quests. Not to mention whole "world content" in Legion beside dailies&rares in main continent was Withered training.

Btw, what's purpose of counting how much content we have at this point of expansion? Legion dealt with this better than previous expacs, but still releasing some content too quickly was MISTAKE (especially short EN + ToV), not success. Cause we got last big world update YEAR before 8.0 and last raid 8 months before. Now, 10.3 or not, we expect much, much more.

Lets also not forget that Legion was in a vastly more polished state compared to DF when it launched.

Why we must not forget something that is in your imagination? Legion launched in polished state? Just compare state of legendary system with 4 RNG legos cap to talent system revamp xD.

[micwini]

I’m on my phone, so I can’t really respond in the way I would prefer, however, @micwini let’s take other expansions OUT of this question for a second. What are your biggest “gripes” with Dragonflight? Additionally, I 100% agree with you that the .5/.7 patches are just “the rest of the prior “large patch” being fleshed out” versus us getting one “huge patch”, however, is that a bad thing (not saying it is or isn’t, I’m asking everyone for their perspective)?

My biggest gripes (biggest to smallest)
1. Content cadence: The amount of content they release is too little for how long it lasts (hence the discussion). Not just the content, but also the story. Not much has happened (yet, hopefully). Instead of big patches with ludicrous pauses (shadowlands), DF has that same amount of content more spread out. Yes, they release stuff more often, but it is far less and probably a symptom of issues in their dev pipeline.

2. Tone: I think they've done a good job at fixing the issues with the gameplay, but the issues with the tone/world is still there. It lacks edge and cool factor. Ask yourself: How many 'WOW' moments have there been in this expansion compared to anything BFA and before? I really wish they could get back to the 'warcraft feel'. Pretty subjective, but its a sentiment a lot of people share. The feeling that the world is quite empty is also part of this. Largest continent in a good while, but it feels plain and lacks soul.

3. Quality: This is mostly subjective, but: So many bugs (especially on launch) and just a lot of frustrating issues with the basic stuff (new UI, talent switching (need to wait for CDs), profession stats not being clear where they come from, etc. Class balance is a hot mess right now. Healing role is quite scuffed atm.

Im curious whats next, but I feel like DF is mostly catered at the very loud minority at the expense of the silent majority (like a lot of stuff in the real world these days)

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I literally said Legion had more raid/dungeon content. Beside that? Hell no.



Ok, I think we are just playing 2 different games.



Very conveniently you ignore size of zones. And you count Broken Shore as full zone xD. And for some reason ignore existence of Zaralek. In DF EVERY big zone has size of Suramar - and has shit ton of quests. Not to mention whole "world content" in Legion beside dailies&rares in main continent was Withered training.

Btw, what's purpose of counting how much content we have at this point of expansion? Legion dealt with this better than previous expacs, but still releasing some content too quickly was MISTAKE (especially short EN + ToV), not success. Cause we got last big world update YEAR before 8.0 and last raid 8 months before. Now, 10.3 or not, we expect much, much more.



Why we must not forget something that is in your imagination? Legion launched in polished state? Just compare state of legendary system with 4 RNG legos cap to talent system revamp xD.

I just edited the number of zones. Typo.
I actually forgot about Legion legendaries! Could be another one to add. Polished I mean bugs, etc, not that the system is not optimally designed. Case in point I could then also mention the disaster that is the new crafting system. DF had by far the most bugs and shit on launch of every expansion ever.

It is very obvious you haven't played Legion when it was current. Since you're only flaming instead of providing facts for your claims, this is the final time I reply to you.

[Santandame]

@Dracullus you are blatantly lying when you say that Legion’s only world content was “dailies and rares”. I’ve had this dance with you before myself where I listed all of Legion’s world content when you brought up that false claim before - of which you didn’t reply to. So I’ve no idea why you are repeatedly doubling down on that stance when you’ve been proven wrong before.

Going off your posting pattern the last few expansions in these threads, it seems your entire shtick is to defend the current expansion against the previous one where you just religiously defend it as being better with more content than its predecessor. We saw it during BfA with Legion. We saw it during SL, and now we’re seeing it in Dragonflight. At this point it feels like it’s not worth discussing the point with you.

[Catastrophy349]

(As a teacher, I value my grammar and punctuation, though keep in mind that I’m on my phone)

I agree with a lot of what you just said @micwini. My main question, concern, or curiosity for Dragonflight is the following:

Are we getting a “slower” paced narrative to set up for future stories (which IMO, is a huge improvement from prior expansions just throwing stuff at us), or is Dragonflight just very “stale” by virtue of many things (devs, resources, etc.)?

While it wouldn’t be an excuse for Dragonflight to have absolutely NO “WoW moments (pun intended)” if they are attempting to use DF as “setting up for future stories”, “if” 11.0 is a HUGE NARRATIVE with “WTF/awesomeness” moments, will we look back at DF and appreciate the “slower pace” since it “built up” 11.0? (Hindsight is 20/20 after all)

Personally, I’m hoping for a balance of “DF setting up for future stories (slower paced as a result)” AND 10.1.7 forward (whether that means 10.3 or not) beginning to really IMPROVE the narrative and give us “huge moments” of “WTF just happened?”

[micwini]

(As a teacher, I value my grammar and punctuation, though keep in mind that I’m on my phone)

I agree with a lot of what you just said @micwini. My main question, concern, or curiosity for Dragonflight is the following:

Are we getting a “slower” paced narrative to set up for future stories (which IMO, is a huge improvement from prior expansions just throwing stuff at us), or is Dragonflight just very “stale” by virtue of many things (devs, resources, etc.)?

While it wouldn’t be an excuse for Dragonflight to have absolutely NO “WoW moments (pun intended)” if they are attempting to use DF as “setting up for future stories”, “if” 11.0 is a HUGE NARRATIVE with “WTF/awesomeness” moments, will we look back at DF and appreciate the “slower pace” since it “built up” 11.0? (Hindsight is 20/20 after all)

Personally, I’m hoping for a balance of “DF setting up for future stories (slower paced as a result)” AND 10.1.7 forward (whether that means 10.3 or not) beginning to really IMPROVE the narrative and give us “huge moments” of “WTF just happened?”

The pessimist in me says they are having production/development issues. The optimist in me says something like you are saying: That DF is a "maintenance expansion" to fix the core systems (talents, proffessions, travel (flying)) and setting up a lot of future stories. I hope its the latter, but man, im not hopeful. Ill always be playing the latest stuff, but the current state of the game sucks quite a bit.

[Santandame]

(As a teacher, I value my grammar and punctuation, though keep in mind that I’m on my phone)

I agree with a lot of what you just said @micwini. My main question, concern, or curiosity for Dragonflight is the following:

Are we getting a “slower” paced narrative to set up for future stories (which IMO, is a huge improvement from prior expansions just throwing stuff at us), or is Dragonflight just very “stale” by virtue of many things (devs, resources, etc.)?

While it wouldn’t be an excuse for Dragonflight to have absolutely NO “WoW moments (pun intended)” if they are attempting to use DF as “setting up for future stories”, “if” 11.0 is a HUGE NARRATIVE with “WTF/awesomeness” moments, will we look back at DF and appreciate the “slower pace” since it “built up” 11.0? (Hindsight is 20/20 after all)

Personally, I’m hoping for a balance of “DF setting up for future stories (slower paced as a result)” AND 10.1.7 forward (whether that means 10.3 or not) beginning to really IMPROVE the narrative and give us “huge moments” of “WTF just happened?”

The argument against the slow pace being one to set up future stories is we had a multitude of new story threads introduced during BfA via Island Expeditions. I like that Iridikron is seemingly going to be an overarching narrative villain as well as the seeding of Avaloren but the story shouldn’t suffer just to set up future story threads.

Dragonflight has been decent. As said, it lacks wow factor. The biggest strengths of the expansion have been Dragonriding which IMO is an excellent addition as well as the talent system revamp. Outside of that, the expansion has been very middle of the road. It’s better than SL but it’s not as good as BfA (despite it having its issues) and it’s nowhere near as good as Legion was.

[Catastrophy349]

Yeah, I agree with both of you above.

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At the end of the day, I’m a WoW addict (like many of you). I will play whatever they throw at me. However, I obviously hope for “the best” version of WoW content versus “crap”. If we as players accept “crap” as the norm, there’s nothing stopping them from producing “crap” for all future content.

[ImTheMizAwesome]

For me personally, DF as a expansion so far is something that i don't hate but i also don't feel or like very much, the thing that kept me subbed(not playing everyday) was trading post besides 10.1.5 megadungeon, now im on break.

Like it has fast patch cadency but at the same time it feels empty in some ways to me, but it's not like that too in reality - i dunno how to word it, DF is the first expansion i have this weird feeling, indifferent is the word perhaps.

[Santandame]

Yeah, I agree with both of you above.

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At the end of the day, I’m a WoW addict (like many of you). I will play whatever they throw at me. However, I obviously hope for “the best” version of WoW content versus “crap”. If we as players accept “crap” as the norm, there’s nothing stopping them from producing “crap” for all future content.

That’s fair enough. I don’t think DF has been crap, I‘ve enjoyed it for the most part but it hasn’t wow’ed me like previous expansions. There are good building blocks there, it’s just down to Blizzard to improve and iterate upon them. I just think in relation to the modern WoW expansion (Legion-Dragonflight) its currently positioned lower on the totem pole than both Legion and BfA.

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@ImTheMizAwesome I agree with you. I’ve enjoyed what I’ve played but it hasn’t gripped me in. I just unsubbed a couple of months in and then I returned for a week or so during 10.1 and dipped back out. Legion had me gripped in throughout and even BfA for its faults had me playing a fair decent amount during every patch.

I’ve been pretty clear that I’m a huge fan of Legion. For me, my perfect expansion would be the entire Legion design but with the DF talent system as well as dragon riding. Throw in a setting that feels like Warcraft and to me that would be the perfect combination.

[Catastrophy349]

Personally, I like Dragonflight. I just can’t shake the feeling of “something is missing”. I can’t speak on “what that missing” is simply because I just don’t know. For me, I value Story>Gameplay>Content (things to do outside of story and class gameplay).

[Cheezits]

Personally, I like Dragonflight. I just can’t shake the feeling of “something is missing”. I can’t speak on “what that missing” is simply because I just don’t know. For me, I value Story>Gameplay>Content (things to do outside of story and class gameplay).

It's missing factions and (most) racial leaders for sure. It's an intentional choice, unfortunately if you want more Azeroth stories this isn't the expac.

I think the heritage quests/oneoffs like the Baine and soon Velen quests are good, but this expansion doesn't address that the fans miss EK/Kalimdor. Likely because the devs couldn't do it in 10,0.

But as it's a videogame first and foremost, the game needed to be fixed before the setting.

[ImTheMizAwesome]

That’s fair enough. I don’t think DF has been crap, I‘ve enjoyed it for the most part but it hasn’t wow’ed me like previous expansions. There are good building blocks there, it’s just down to Blizzard to improve and iterate upon them. I just think in relation to the modern WoW expansion (Legion-Dragonflight) its currently positioned lower on the totem pole than both Legion and BfA.

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@ImTheMizAwesome I agree with you. I’ve enjoyed what I’ve played but it hasn’t gripped me in. I I subbed a couple of months in and then I returned for a week or so during 10.1 and dipped back out. Legion had me gripped in throughout and even BfA for its faults had me playing a fair decent amount during every patch.

Yeah i again don't know how to word it properly, but especially in legion my "fun" of doing content(im a casual) was very fulfilled and also in BFA i loved the allied races aspect and discussing about it, unlocking them and thinking of transmogs etc i was farming before they become available..

I really thought the azerite armor system was very boring in BFA coming from something that was really fun with a lot of cosmetic unlocks and sotry - Artifact weapons + class halls, but as an expansion i didn't had that feeling of indifference for the most part, like i have in DF, even when i spent good chunk of time in it.

[Villager720]

You think releasing all patches in 1 year, and then 1 year of nothing is good cadence? Legion was the only expansion with a good cadence. I think second behind that is BFA.

To be fair to MoP, I think that giant year long gap before WoD wasn’t part of the plan. As has been obvious since alpha/beta, WoD had something to very wrong during development that left us with … half an expansion.
I think they fully expected WoD to come out potentially 6 months prior to when it actually did, hence them spamming content in MoP.

[Cheezits]

Also DF story is currently unimportant and kind of filler (might change with Iri/Void bargain and Tyr waking up) unless you like the dragons. Its an Azeroth story but kind of disconnected from Azeroth in the same way SL was.

I think their plans for Azeroth are very lofty (see the teasing about the sword, mentioning Gilneas) but as we see with the sword, whatever they are is taking four plus years. And because of hype/reveal culture they can't elaborate on their plans even if they should.

[Dracullus]

@Dracullus you are blatantly lying when you say that Legion’s only world content was “dailies and rares”. I’ve had this dance with you before myself where I listed all of Legion’s world content when you brought up that false claim before - of which you didn’t reply to. So I’ve no idea why you are repeatedly doubling down on that stance when you’ve been proven wrong before.

For reference, you mean this post:

The first implementation of World Quests. Whilst old hat now, when they were first introduced everyone loved them and did them all the time because they were new and shiny. Plus the rewards such as early gearing, or gearing alts, AP, rep and later paragon boxes.

The World PvP Warden Towers. These were constantly having battles, large or small. Some of my very best memories from Legion were the skirmishes at the towers.

Secrets making their way into the game for the first time. Inspiring a community to form plus a crazy following when they were discovered. Lucid Nightmare, Fathom Dweller and Long Lost Forgotten Hippogriff to name a few.

Legion invasions.

The Sentinax & Nethershard farming.

The majority of the hidden artifact appearances were tied to world content.

Broken Shore.

Dalaran Underbelly.

The fishing artifact.

The Falcosaur pet/mount grinds.

Class Halls to a lesser extent.

SURAMAR in general?

I think it’s a little disingenuous to say Legion didn’t have much going on world content wise prior to 7.3. There was plenty to do in the game in every avenue.

.. where you put every single small things, world quest in multiple sentences, new zone names for some reason.. oh and fishing artifact. And Warden towers - yes that was certainly not another daily xD.

Dude, if we put list like that for DF we would have to pull snail racing, Wration dailies and fishing coins as important pieces of DF content. xD

[MENTION=1269988]Going off your posting pattern the last few expansions in these threads, it seems your entire shtick is to defend the current expansion against the previous one where you just religiously defend it as being better with more content than its predecessor. We saw it during BfA with Legion. We saw it during SL, and now we’re seeing it in Dragonflight. At this point it feels like it’s not worth discussing the point with you.

Usually I'm reacting to ridiculous claims about current expac, but thx for research. When expac sucks at something - for example SL having too complex systems or DF not going account wide enough, I post about it. When I compare Legion to DF, I say multiple times that DF has less dungeon/raid content.

But overall every expac improve a little over last one. Most problems come from:

a) production fuck ups that lead to content droughts

b) devs not reacting quick enough to some part of game geting stale, most iconic example is BfA where they tried to do Legion 2.0 when people were no longer starving for content after WoD, but fed up after multiple power grinds after Legion.

Mindless "why WoW won't go back to expansion from 10 years ago" is usually based on nostalgialand, not facts. As Classic proves.

Personally, I like Dragonflight. I just can’t shake the feeling of “something is missing”.

I think it's danger. DF is simply another MoP that was same way before Siege. But people literally asked for this, I even remember comments "we wanted peaceful exploration, but you are starting same shit with Raszageth again".

It is just necessary step. If 11.0 is "world is ending" again, reaction after DF will be vastly different than after SL.