The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Makorus]

I would argue that there's a difference between being relevant and being a driver of a plot. Jaina and Sylvanas were those things in both BFA and Shadowlands respectively. Sylvanas being a prime example of this by being in the opening cinematic of Shadowlands and being the character that initiates the expansion by kidnapping leaders and opening the portal. In any case, I'm looking to Thrall either being Jaina's level in BFA or Sylvanas' level in Shadowlands. Given that this is going to be WoW's 20th anniversary expansion, the 100% prediction rate guy, and Chris Metzen's supposed involvement, I'm leaning towards Sylvanas in Shadowlands level Thrall involvement, where he's in the opening cinematic and maybe even on the cover.

As for expansion theme, it's still Lightbound invasion. Interestingly, the orcs that fled Draenor in BFA claimed that Yrel's Lightbound army somehow destroyed Draenor's ecosystem, and led to a planetary collapse. That plot point could be utilized as a reason (excuse) for Thrall using Azeroth's elements to protect the world from whatever destructive magic Yrel and the Naaru are employing.


Whelp, backing my theory some more, Gul'dan was on the Key art for Gamescon 2015 right before Legion was announced;

Jaina is not the driver of the plot in BfA or honestly even that relevant outside of the intro and ending of Kul'tiras.

Jaina has the importance of Koranos.

Sylvanas/Saurfang/Anduin are.

Also: Sylvanas was in the keyart because we quite literally knew that the next expansion would be about her. We knew the ending of the War Campaign before Shadowlands was revealed.

Gul'dan was in the key art for Legion because we knew at that point that the next expansion we would deal with the repercusion of Gul'dan being transported... somewhere.

The only one out of the left field, really, was Jaina.

We know nothing even remotely of the direction of the next expansion, so of course Blizzard isn't gonna spoil anything with the keyart.

[Teriz]

Uh, the Elemental part of DF is way more present than Void. In fact, that completely contradicts Teriz's theory; if BFA is too Pirate themed, then Dragonflight is too elemental themed for it to be the theme for 11.0

Not really. In DF the elements are simply tied to the primal dragons. There's a difference between that and Thrall utilizing the elemental lords in defense of Azeroth against an invasion from an alien force. In the end, DF is about dragons and their struggle between being primal or being order, and which path was the right path the go down for their race. That's a completely thematic than Yrel invading Azeroth and Thrall rising up and opposing them with the powers of the elements.

You're pulling out the key art principal as if it proves your theory: The 2023 key art has Thrall, that just means Thrall will be involved. Yeah, an expansion where we fight "the harbinger" & its void forces are the most obvious antagonist choice right now, but we still have more major patches to go plus if the "formula" says the next expansion will feature the elemental lords, Blizzard might willfully contradict it simply because they've been found out.Proxy means "the face" of a perspective.

I don't agree that the most obvious antagonist force right now is a "harbinger" that we don't even know the name of with us fighting an ambiguous void threat. I would argue that the most obvious antagonistic force is Yrel, because we actually know who she is and what level of threat she poses. In addition, a Yrel expansion would also introduce playable Arakkoa and Ogres, two highly demanded playable races. It fits the hints we received from BFA and Shadowlands, it fits Thrall being on the promo art, it fits Metzen's return, and it aligns with the 10th anniversary of WoD and the 20th anniversary of WoW.

[Raetary]

Uh, the Elemental part of DF is way more present than Void.

Of course the elements are present, that doesn't really mean much when they are not receiving any narrative focus.

They exist solely as a plot device.
A tool for the titans to do suppress and do experiments with, for incarnates to use for their own ends and for the void to influence and corrupt.

We have yet to even see any minor elemental spirit proclaim any opinion on what is happening, let alone someone that's more prominent like an elemental lord.

Proxy means "the face" of a perspective.

A proxy is a representative acting on another authority's behalf.
'The face' is authority behind the proxy.

The Incarnates are not a proxy, their are their own authority.

[Teriz]

Jaina is not the driver of the plot in BfA or honestly even that relevant outside of the intro and ending of Kul'tiras.

Jaina has the importance of Koranos.

Are you kidding? The bringing in of Kul'tiras on the side of the alliance is a pretty huge plot point in BFA, as is her role in the Battle of Daza'lor and The Eternal Palace. In addition she was featured in the Warbringer cinematic which showcased the major characters of BFA of which she was one. How can you say she doesn't drive the plot when one of the continents in BFA is entirely based around her story?

Also: Sylvanas was in the keyart because we quite literally knew that the next expansion would be about her. We knew the ending of the War Campaign before Shadowlands was revealed.

Gul'dan was in the key art for Legion because we knew at that point that the next expansion we would deal with the repercusion of Gul'dan being transported... somewhere.

Them being heavily foreshadowed as major players in future expansions doesn't change the fact that they were showcased in the key art BEFORE the expansions were revealed and were major aspects of Legion and Shadowlands plot and theme.

We know nothing even remotely of the direction of the next expansion, so of course Blizzard isn't gonna spoil anything with the keyart.

Uh based on the BlizzCon '23 promo art, we know that Thrall is a major part of the next expansion.

[Cheezits]

11.0 could definitely have an elemental theme as they are not a huge focus of DF despite having a large presence. If we take out the Primalists in 10.2/10.3, 11.0 could have a plotline of Thrall and the Earthen Ring uncovering WHY the Primalists happened at all. Could also include Thrall and us fixing some Cata areas: if we remember what the devs said, they want us to experience big moments, not have them happen offscreen even if it makes sense for them to happen offscreen (Gilneas Reclamation).

Maybe 11.0 is an EK/Kalimdor tour with elements and assorted antagonists (Scarlets, Nathrezim, Botani, Primalist remnants, "Heretics", Nightsquall Pirates) just like Cata 2? I feel like there are too many plot elements being built up for just one new island continent.

[Sondrelk]

11.0 could definitely have an elemental theme as they are not a huge focus of DF despite having a large presence. If we take out the Primalists in 10.2/10.3, 11.0 could have a plotline of Thrall and the Earthen Ring uncovering WHY the Primalists happened at all. Could also include Thrall and us fixing some Cata areas: if we remember what the devs said, they want us to experience big moments, not have them happen offscreen even if it makes sense for them to happen offscreen (Gilneas Reclamation).

Maybe 11.0 is an EK/Kalimdor tour with elements and assorted antagonists (Scarlets, Nathrezim, Botani, Primalist remnants, "Heretics", Nightsquall Pirates) just like Cata 2? I feel like there are too many plot elements being built up for just one new island continent.

World Revamp still feels very much on the cards I would say. It would be a big moment to announce truly worthy of the anniversary, and it would let the developers toy with all kinds of themes that wouldnt really fit into a regular expansion. Not to mention it would let us have some forward momentum on big faction related plotlines like the Sunwell, the Draenei/Man'ari, Dark Iron Dwarves, and the future of the Forsaken.

[Ersula]

I don't agree that the most obvious antagonist force right now is a "harbinger" that we don't even know the name of with us fighting an ambiguous void threat. I would argue that the most obvious antagonistic force is Yrel, because we actually know who she is and what level of threat she poses. In addition, a Yrel expansion would also introduce playable Arakkoa and Ogres, two highly demanded playable races. It fits the hints we received from BFA and Shadowlands, it fits Thrall being on the promo art, it fits Metzen's return, and it aligns with the 10th anniversary of WoD and the 20th anniversary of WoW.

It's name is the Harbinger, Capital-letter H. And Iridirkon has everything he needs to summon them. Yrel, as we keep reminding you, isn't even on this plane of existence. She's not the most obvious antagonist, she's not even on the top 10 of most obvious potential antagonists at this very moment. I doubt many of the developers even consider her antagonistic because she's only as hostile to the Mag'har as any Alliance leader is to the horde.

You have no reason to say these things with such confidence. "10th anniversary of WoD and 20th anniversary of WoW?" Absolutely insane to base an anniversary expansion on the one with the lowest critical rating & biggest drop in subscriptions. And not on Azeroth? Absolutely not.

The Incarnates are not a proxy, their are their own authority.

You're thinking too literally. They are the proxy of an elemental theme. They are elemental. The same way N'zoth is a proxy of the Old Gods as a whole. The original comment was correct.

[Cheezits]

World Revamp still feels very much on the cards I would say. It would be a big moment to announce truly worthy of the anniversary, and it would let the developers toy with all kinds of themes that wouldnt really fit into a regular expansion. Not to mention it would let us have some forward momentum on big faction related plotlines like the Sunwell, the Draenei/Man'ari, Dark Iron Dwarves, and the future of the Forsaken.

I think the big questline to look into on Tuesday is the Forsaken quest. If the Scarlets v Calia questline they have been building up since BFA is resolved in a single questline, I'll start giving up hope. But if they keep going with it... (also Botani may appear in the Nelf one)

I will admit though that the Scarlets may just run to Avaloren, per the name and the fact they had a New Avalon.

[Teriz]

It's name is the Harbinger, Capital-letter H. And Iridirkon has everything he needs to summon them.

And you honestly believe that that plot is going to bleed over into the next expansion? If N'Zoth didn't make it to 9.0, the Harbinger more than likely isn't going to be a factor in 11.0.

Yrel, as we keep reminding you, isn't even on this plane of existence.

You do know that in the current expansion there's infinite and bronze drakes everywhere right? WoD was kicked off by a Bronze drake taking Garrosh to AU Draenor.

She's not the most obvious antagonist, she's not even on the top 10 of most obvious potential antagonists at this very moment. I doubt many of the developers even consider her antagonistic because she's only as hostile to the Mag'har as any Alliance leader is to the horde.

You know this how exactly? Also she isn't only antagonistic against the Mag'har, she's antagonistic against anyone who doesn't convert to her fanaticism. That makes her highly dangerous, because she can easily sway people who are already fanatical light followers (like the Scarlet Crusade or the LF Draenei).

You have no reason to say these things with such confidence. "10th anniversary of WoD and 20th anniversary of WoW?" Absolutely insane to base an anniversary expansion on the one with the lowest critical rating & biggest drop in subscriptions. And not on Azeroth? Absolutely not.

Except this expansion would be on Azeroth, since Draenor is a dying planet, and it's denizens would be fleeing it for the safety of Azeroth, just like the Mag'har did in BFA.

[Makorus]

Are you kidding? The bringing in of Kul'tiras on the side of the alliance is a pretty huge plot point in BFA, as is her role in the Battle of Daza'lor and The Eternal Palace. In addition she was featured in the Warbringer cinematic which showcased the major characters of BFA of which she was one. How can you say she doesn't drive the plot when one of the continents in BFA is entirely based around her story?

Because she doesn't drive the actual plot? That's like saying that Khadgar drives the plot of Dragonflight because he is relevant for the Azure Span. She is even less relevant than Talanji, who doesn't spend 90% of the storyline locked away. I am not saying that she isn't a major character, but she is a major character like Koranos or Bolvar are. She is not Anduin/Sylvanas/Chromie/Illidan/Khadgar in WoD/Legion level.

Them being heavily foreshadowed as major players in future expansions doesn't change the fact that they were showcased in the key art BEFORE the expansions were revealed and were major aspects of Legion and Shadowlands plot and theme.

Okay? They weren't "foreshadowed". Sylvanas disappearing and essentially saying "Hahahha, see you suckers in the next expansion where I use my mysterious new powers!" isn't foreshadowing, it's outright saying that she will be the main villain of the next expansion. No one was arguing whether she was gonna be the villain, people were arguing about the setting. We knew at that point that they were gonna be the villains of the next expansion, they didn't spoil anything with that key art. They never really spoiled anything with a key art.

Uh based on the BlizzCon '23 promo art, we know that Thrall is a major part of the next expansion.

But we don't. Thrall is probably gonna show up, but him being a "major" part is questionable at best. Merchandise like that doesn't mean anything. Thrall got a statue in 2020, and he wasn't really important in Shadowlands at all.

[huth]

A proxy is a representative acting on another authority's behalf.
'The face' is authority behind the proxy.

The face is the publically visible part. Which is usually the proxy, not the authority on whose behalf it acts.

[Cheezits]

World of Warcraft: Rebirth

[Teriz]

Because she doesn't drive the actual plot? That's like saying that Khadgar drives the plot of Dragonflight because he is relevant for the Azure Span. She is even less relevant than Talanji, who doesn't spend 90% of the storyline locked away. I am not saying that she isn't a major character, but she is a major character like Koranos or Bolvar are. She is not Anduin/Sylvanas/Chromie/Illidan/Khadgar in WoD/Legion level.

Uh, we were in Kul'tiras because of Jaina, and alliance players quest in Kul'tiras because of Jaina. The only way you can say Jaina isn't a major part of the plot of BFA is by saying that Kul'tiras isn't a major part of the plot of BFA. Are we seriously going to argue that someone saying before BFA's reveal that in the next expansion we're going to be adventuring in Kul'tiras that wouldn't be a major hint? That's exactly what Jaina was on that promo art in 2017.

Not to mention that Jaina has a pretty massive reveal in during the battle of Lordaeron, is the final raid boss in the second raid of the expansion, and alongside Lor'themar she helps us fight Azshara in the Eternal Palace.

Again, Blizzard wouldn't have made the Warmonger cinematic about her if she wasn't a major character in BFA.

Okay? They weren't "foreshadowed". Sylvanas disappearing and essentially saying "Hahahha, see you suckers in the next expansion where I use my mysterious new powers!" isn't foreshadowing, it's outright saying that she will be the main villain of the next expansion. No one was arguing whether she was gonna be the villain, people were arguing about the setting. We knew at that point that they were gonna be the villains of the next expansion, they didn't spoil anything with that key art. They never really spoiled anything with a key art.

Please. We had no idea when Sylvanas was going to reappear. Some speculated next expansion, others speculated later. Her popping up in the 2019 promo art merely confirmed the former speculation.

But we don't. Thrall is probably gonna show up, but him being a "major" part is questionable at best. Merchandise like that doesn't mean anything. Thrall got a statue in 2020, and he wasn't really important in Shadowlands at all.

Again, Gul'dan was a major character in Legion (Demons), Jaina was a major character in BFA (Kul'Tiras/War), and Sylvanas was a major character in Shadowlands (Death).

Thrall's appearance indicates that he's going to be a major character and part of the expansion's theme.

[RahEndymion]

People choosing to die on some very odd hills in this thread in the last 20 pages.

Before thrall was elemental jesus, he was just Warchief of the horde. There's a lot of room for his character without a return to the one (or two?) surviving elemental lords. He's also the main focus of the next classic expansion..

Everyone here also trying to find patterns and basing their speculation of a bunch of assumptions based on patterns is also really odd. It's like you all believe there are some hard and fast commitments to these patterns top down in the company when I can guarantee you that isn't the case. There is literally no chance that devs / marketing are sitting down with a 'well we need to do X because it comes after W and before Y on our flip chart' or 'we have to have Q character on the art because there's a thread on mmoc where they believe that determines a characters specific role in an expansion'.

You need to remember that the staff writing the story beats has changed a lot in the last 5 years. It's naïve to genuinely believe that despite the narrative disparity within the last few expansions, let alone from one expansion to another, there is still somehow a unified strict blueprint that isn't broken. The amount of cut content from BFA & SL alone leaves abundant room for discrepancies with any previously set plan, not to mention fan feedback to certain story beats and absurdly low sub numbers that will undoubtedly impact story telling moving forward.

10.0 was pretty good. 10.1 was noticeably less so. Here's to hoping 10.2 is a return to form but realistically it's unlikely. The player base drop off between 10.0.07 and 10.1.07 has been of a magnitude I've never witnessed. I think it's fair to say reversing that trend is likely a far greater motivation than following any arbitrary pattern.

For what it's worth, I still think that if we are not going to Avaloren in 10.3 then we are in 11.0.

All of the sea faring and heavy handed hinting screams to me 'we need to drum up hype for something ASAP'.

[Ersula]

Them being heavily foreshadowed as major players in future expansions doesn't change the fact that they were showcased in the key art BEFORE the expansions were revealed and were major aspects of Legion and Shadowlands plot and theme.

Legion teaser featuring Illidan was shown at Gamescom & the Key art for Blizzcon (featuring Illidan) was revealed in October, over a month later.

And you honestly believe that that plot is going to bleed over into the next expansion? If N'Zoth didn't make it to 9.0, the Harbinger more than likely isn't going to be a factor in 11.0.

It might. I don't think it's going to, but I do think the plotline will be the direct consequences of Iridikron's plan. Either way its definitely a bigger existential threat to Azeroth. Azshara, Denathrius, Turalyon, Alleria, That new Demon Lord, the Dark One that destroys planets, and the Dread Pirate Nightsquall are all bigger existential threats to Azeroth than Yrel.

You do know that in the current expansion there's infinite and bronze drakes everywhere right? WoD was kicked off by a Bronze drake taking Garrosh to AU Draenor.

Yeah, which would make them doing another expansion about that plot cul-de-sac the equivalent of doing a third expansion revolving around the Lich King: It ain't happening. Not in this decade.

You know this how exactly? Also she isn't only antagonistic against the Mag'har, she's antagonistic against anyone who doesn't convert to her fanaticism. That makes her highly dangerous, because she can easily sway people who are already fanatical light followers (like the Scarlet Crusade or the LF Draenei).

That's way too much to infer from what is less than a paragraph of text in a single questline. I do think she would be a solid antagonist, if that's what they decide to do. In fact if you go back far enough, I was the first person pitching Yrel as an light-tyrant on this forum, right after Mag'har were playable; but shes definitely not "the most obvious antagonist."

[Teriz]

Legion teaser featuring Illidan was shown at Gamescom & the Key art for Blizzcon (featuring Illidan) was revealed in October, over a month later.

That was released BEFORE Gamescon took place and before Legion's announcement at that event. It clearly shows Gul'dan representing WoW, and we both know that Gul'dan was integral to the plot in Legion.

The rest is merely my opinion versus your opinion on what is the most clear/obvious upcoming threat. I don't view that as a useful conversation.

- - - Updated - - -

P
Everyone here also trying to find patterns and basing their speculation of a bunch of assumptions based on patterns is also really odd. It's like you all believe there are some hard and fast commitments to these patterns top down in the company when I can guarantee you that isn't the case. There is literally no chance that devs / marketing are sitting down with a 'well we need to do X because it comes after W and before Y on our flip chart' or 'we have to have Q character on the art because there's a thread on mmoc where they believe that determines a characters specific role in an expansion'.

Why would you believe that's the case? Clearly the obvious interpretation is that Blizzard likes to throw hints at what they're going to do next, and the promo art is part of that process. It isn't anyone here believing that they control what Blizzard does, it's recognizing that Blizzard is giving us an Easter egg to generate hype. They do it all the time, and they've done it repeatedly in some cases. The promo key art is one such repeatable example.

[Cheezits]

Prediction: the first thing we see in the cinematic is a fade-in on Gorribal/The Sword.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Prediction: the first thing we see in the cinematic is a fade-in on Gorribal/The Sword.

Me: /10chars

[Raetary]

Prediction: the first thing we see in the cinematic is a fade-in on Gorribal/The Sword.

And then we hear Ions voice in the background, sensually whispering "Sword? What sword?"

[Cheezits]

And then we hear Ions voice in the background, sensually whispering "Sword? What sword?"

The sword and Gilneas are the two big things the devs actually talk about on Azeroth that I can't see relating to New Continent expansion. Gorribal could get scooped back up if the Pantheon appears again, per Iridikrons plan.