The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Ersula]

I don't agree that the most obvious antagonist force right now is a "harbinger" that we don't even know the name of with us fighting an ambiguous void threat. I would argue that the most obvious antagonistic force is Yrel, because we actually know who she is and what level of threat she poses. In addition, a Yrel expansion would also introduce playable Arakkoa and Ogres, two highly demanded playable races. It fits the hints we received from BFA and Shadowlands, it fits Thrall being on the promo art, it fits Metzen's return, and it aligns with the 10th anniversary of WoD and the 20th anniversary of WoW.

It's name is the Harbinger, Capital-letter H. And Iridirkon has everything he needs to summon them. Yrel, as we keep reminding you, isn't even on this plane of existence. She's not the most obvious antagonist, she's not even on the top 10 of most obvious potential antagonists at this very moment. I doubt many of the developers even consider her antagonistic because she's only as hostile to the Mag'har as any Alliance leader is to the horde.

You have no reason to say these things with such confidence. "10th anniversary of WoD and 20th anniversary of WoW?" Absolutely insane to base an anniversary expansion on the one with the lowest critical rating & biggest drop in subscriptions. And not on Azeroth? Absolutely not.

The Incarnates are not a proxy, their are their own authority.

You're thinking too literally. They are the proxy of an elemental theme. They are elemental. The same way N'zoth is a proxy of the Old Gods as a whole. The original comment was correct.

[Cheezits]

World Revamp still feels very much on the cards I would say. It would be a big moment to announce truly worthy of the anniversary, and it would let the developers toy with all kinds of themes that wouldnt really fit into a regular expansion. Not to mention it would let us have some forward momentum on big faction related plotlines like the Sunwell, the Draenei/Man'ari, Dark Iron Dwarves, and the future of the Forsaken.

I think the big questline to look into on Tuesday is the Forsaken quest. If the Scarlets v Calia questline they have been building up since BFA is resolved in a single questline, I'll start giving up hope. But if they keep going with it... (also Botani may appear in the Nelf one)

I will admit though that the Scarlets may just run to Avaloren, per the name and the fact they had a New Avalon.

[Teriz]

It's name is the Harbinger, Capital-letter H. And Iridirkon has everything he needs to summon them.

And you honestly believe that that plot is going to bleed over into the next expansion? If N'Zoth didn't make it to 9.0, the Harbinger more than likely isn't going to be a factor in 11.0.

Yrel, as we keep reminding you, isn't even on this plane of existence.

You do know that in the current expansion there's infinite and bronze drakes everywhere right? WoD was kicked off by a Bronze drake taking Garrosh to AU Draenor.

She's not the most obvious antagonist, she's not even on the top 10 of most obvious potential antagonists at this very moment. I doubt many of the developers even consider her antagonistic because she's only as hostile to the Mag'har as any Alliance leader is to the horde.

You know this how exactly? Also she isn't only antagonistic against the Mag'har, she's antagonistic against anyone who doesn't convert to her fanaticism. That makes her highly dangerous, because she can easily sway people who are already fanatical light followers (like the Scarlet Crusade or the LF Draenei).

You have no reason to say these things with such confidence. "10th anniversary of WoD and 20th anniversary of WoW?" Absolutely insane to base an anniversary expansion on the one with the lowest critical rating & biggest drop in subscriptions. And not on Azeroth? Absolutely not.

Except this expansion would be on Azeroth, since Draenor is a dying planet, and it's denizens would be fleeing it for the safety of Azeroth, just like the Mag'har did in BFA.

[Makorus]

Are you kidding? The bringing in of Kul'tiras on the side of the alliance is a pretty huge plot point in BFA, as is her role in the Battle of Daza'lor and The Eternal Palace. In addition she was featured in the Warbringer cinematic which showcased the major characters of BFA of which she was one. How can you say she doesn't drive the plot when one of the continents in BFA is entirely based around her story?

Because she doesn't drive the actual plot? That's like saying that Khadgar drives the plot of Dragonflight because he is relevant for the Azure Span. She is even less relevant than Talanji, who doesn't spend 90% of the storyline locked away. I am not saying that she isn't a major character, but she is a major character like Koranos or Bolvar are. She is not Anduin/Sylvanas/Chromie/Illidan/Khadgar in WoD/Legion level.

Them being heavily foreshadowed as major players in future expansions doesn't change the fact that they were showcased in the key art BEFORE the expansions were revealed and were major aspects of Legion and Shadowlands plot and theme.

Okay? They weren't "foreshadowed". Sylvanas disappearing and essentially saying "Hahahha, see you suckers in the next expansion where I use my mysterious new powers!" isn't foreshadowing, it's outright saying that she will be the main villain of the next expansion. No one was arguing whether she was gonna be the villain, people were arguing about the setting. We knew at that point that they were gonna be the villains of the next expansion, they didn't spoil anything with that key art. They never really spoiled anything with a key art.

Uh based on the BlizzCon '23 promo art, we know that Thrall is a major part of the next expansion.

But we don't. Thrall is probably gonna show up, but him being a "major" part is questionable at best. Merchandise like that doesn't mean anything. Thrall got a statue in 2020, and he wasn't really important in Shadowlands at all.

[huth]

A proxy is a representative acting on another authority's behalf.
'The face' is authority behind the proxy.

The face is the publically visible part. Which is usually the proxy, not the authority on whose behalf it acts.

[Cheezits]

World of Warcraft: Rebirth

[Teriz]

Because she doesn't drive the actual plot? That's like saying that Khadgar drives the plot of Dragonflight because he is relevant for the Azure Span. She is even less relevant than Talanji, who doesn't spend 90% of the storyline locked away. I am not saying that she isn't a major character, but she is a major character like Koranos or Bolvar are. She is not Anduin/Sylvanas/Chromie/Illidan/Khadgar in WoD/Legion level.

Uh, we were in Kul'tiras because of Jaina, and alliance players quest in Kul'tiras because of Jaina. The only way you can say Jaina isn't a major part of the plot of BFA is by saying that Kul'tiras isn't a major part of the plot of BFA. Are we seriously going to argue that someone saying before BFA's reveal that in the next expansion we're going to be adventuring in Kul'tiras that wouldn't be a major hint? That's exactly what Jaina was on that promo art in 2017.

Not to mention that Jaina has a pretty massive reveal in during the battle of Lordaeron, is the final raid boss in the second raid of the expansion, and alongside Lor'themar she helps us fight Azshara in the Eternal Palace.

Again, Blizzard wouldn't have made the Warmonger cinematic about her if she wasn't a major character in BFA.

Okay? They weren't "foreshadowed". Sylvanas disappearing and essentially saying "Hahahha, see you suckers in the next expansion where I use my mysterious new powers!" isn't foreshadowing, it's outright saying that she will be the main villain of the next expansion. No one was arguing whether she was gonna be the villain, people were arguing about the setting. We knew at that point that they were gonna be the villains of the next expansion, they didn't spoil anything with that key art. They never really spoiled anything with a key art.

Please. We had no idea when Sylvanas was going to reappear. Some speculated next expansion, others speculated later. Her popping up in the 2019 promo art merely confirmed the former speculation.

But we don't. Thrall is probably gonna show up, but him being a "major" part is questionable at best. Merchandise like that doesn't mean anything. Thrall got a statue in 2020, and he wasn't really important in Shadowlands at all.

Again, Gul'dan was a major character in Legion (Demons), Jaina was a major character in BFA (Kul'Tiras/War), and Sylvanas was a major character in Shadowlands (Death).

Thrall's appearance indicates that he's going to be a major character and part of the expansion's theme.

[Worldshaper]

Because she doesn't drive the actual plot? That's like saying that Khadgar drives the plot of Dragonflight because he is relevant for the Azure Span. She is even less relevant than Talanji, who doesn't spend 90% of the storyline locked away. I am not saying that she isn't a major character, but she is a major character like Koranos or Bolvar are. She is not Anduin/Sylvanas/Chromie/Illidan/Khadgar in WoD/Legion level.

Okay? They weren't "foreshadowed". Sylvanas disappearing and essentially saying "Hahahha, see you suckers in the next expansion where I use my mysterious new powers!" isn't foreshadowing, it's outright saying that she will be the main villain of the next expansion. No one was arguing whether she was gonna be the villain, people were arguing about the setting. We knew at that point that they were gonna be the villains of the next expansion, they didn't spoil anything with that key art. They never really spoiled anything with a key art.

But we don't. Thrall is probably gonna show up, but him being a "major" part is questionable at best. Merchandise like that doesn't mean anything. Thrall got a statue in 2020, and he wasn't really important in Shadowlands at all.

/s right?

Jaina saves two Alliance kings at the Battle for Lordaeron, when she shows up with her vessel.

She then brings the player to Kul Tiras, and Kul Tiras into the Alliance.

She invades the Horde stronghold and capital of Zandalar.

She's instrumental in Nazjatar, saving the party.

She has significant story development of her own, as we dig into her family history, Arthas, her undead brother, etc.

And she's one of the Warbringers featured ahead of the expansion.

And Sylvanas was most definitely in the driver's seat for Shadowlands, just as Thrall will be for 11.0.

[RahEndymion]

People choosing to die on some very odd hills in this thread in the last 20 pages.

Before thrall was elemental jesus, he was just Warchief of the horde. There's a lot of room for his character without a return to the one (or two?) surviving elemental lords. He's also the main focus of the next classic expansion..

Everyone here also trying to find patterns and basing their speculation of a bunch of assumptions based on patterns is also really odd. It's like you all believe there are some hard and fast commitments to these patterns top down in the company when I can guarantee you that isn't the case. There is literally no chance that devs / marketing are sitting down with a 'well we need to do X because it comes after W and before Y on our flip chart' or 'we have to have Q character on the art because there's a thread on mmoc where they believe that determines a characters specific role in an expansion'.

You need to remember that the staff writing the story beats has changed a lot in the last 5 years. It's naïve to genuinely believe that despite the narrative disparity within the last few expansions, let alone from one expansion to another, there is still somehow a unified strict blueprint that isn't broken. The amount of cut content from BFA & SL alone leaves abundant room for discrepancies with any previously set plan, not to mention fan feedback to certain story beats and absurdly low sub numbers that will undoubtedly impact story telling moving forward.

10.0 was pretty good. 10.1 was noticeably less so. Here's to hoping 10.2 is a return to form but realistically it's unlikely. The player base drop off between 10.0.07 and 10.1.07 has been of a magnitude I've never witnessed. I think it's fair to say reversing that trend is likely a far greater motivation than following any arbitrary pattern.

For what it's worth, I still think that if we are not going to Avaloren in 10.3 then we are in 11.0.

All of the sea faring and heavy handed hinting screams to me 'we need to drum up hype for something ASAP'.

[Ersula]

Them being heavily foreshadowed as major players in future expansions doesn't change the fact that they were showcased in the key art BEFORE the expansions were revealed and were major aspects of Legion and Shadowlands plot and theme.

Legion teaser featuring Illidan was shown at Gamescom & the Key art for Blizzcon (featuring Illidan) was revealed in October, over a month later.

And you honestly believe that that plot is going to bleed over into the next expansion? If N'Zoth didn't make it to 9.0, the Harbinger more than likely isn't going to be a factor in 11.0.

It might. I don't think it's going to, but I do think the plotline will be the direct consequences of Iridikron's plan. Either way its definitely a bigger existential threat to Azeroth. Azshara, Denathrius, Turalyon, Alleria, That new Demon Lord, the Dark One that destroys planets, and the Dread Pirate Nightsquall are all bigger existential threats to Azeroth than Yrel.

You do know that in the current expansion there's infinite and bronze drakes everywhere right? WoD was kicked off by a Bronze drake taking Garrosh to AU Draenor.

Yeah, which would make them doing another expansion about that plot cul-de-sac the equivalent of doing a third expansion revolving around the Lich King: It ain't happening. Not in this decade.

You know this how exactly? Also she isn't only antagonistic against the Mag'har, she's antagonistic against anyone who doesn't convert to her fanaticism. That makes her highly dangerous, because she can easily sway people who are already fanatical light followers (like the Scarlet Crusade or the LF Draenei).

That's way too much to infer from what is less than a paragraph of text in a single questline. I do think she would be a solid antagonist, if that's what they decide to do. In fact if you go back far enough, I was the first person pitching Yrel as an light-tyrant on this forum, right after Mag'har were playable; but shes definitely not "the most obvious antagonist."

[Teriz]

Legion teaser featuring Illidan was shown at Gamescom & the Key art for Blizzcon (featuring Illidan) was revealed in October, over a month later.

That was released BEFORE Gamescon took place and before Legion's announcement at that event. It clearly shows Gul'dan representing WoW, and we both know that Gul'dan was integral to the plot in Legion.

The rest is merely my opinion versus your opinion on what is the most clear/obvious upcoming threat. I don't view that as a useful conversation.

- - - Updated - - -

P
Everyone here also trying to find patterns and basing their speculation of a bunch of assumptions based on patterns is also really odd. It's like you all believe there are some hard and fast commitments to these patterns top down in the company when I can guarantee you that isn't the case. There is literally no chance that devs / marketing are sitting down with a 'well we need to do X because it comes after W and before Y on our flip chart' or 'we have to have Q character on the art because there's a thread on mmoc where they believe that determines a characters specific role in an expansion'.

Why would you believe that's the case? Clearly the obvious interpretation is that Blizzard likes to throw hints at what they're going to do next, and the promo art is part of that process. It isn't anyone here believing that they control what Blizzard does, it's recognizing that Blizzard is giving us an Easter egg to generate hype. They do it all the time, and they've done it repeatedly in some cases. The promo key art is one such repeatable example.

[Cheezits]

Prediction: the first thing we see in the cinematic is a fade-in on Gorribal/The Sword.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Prediction: the first thing we see in the cinematic is a fade-in on Gorribal/The Sword.

Me: /10chars

[Raetary]

Prediction: the first thing we see in the cinematic is a fade-in on Gorribal/The Sword.

And then we hear Ions voice in the background, sensually whispering "Sword? What sword?"

[Cheezits]

And then we hear Ions voice in the background, sensually whispering "Sword? What sword?"

The sword and Gilneas are the two big things the devs actually talk about on Azeroth that I can't see relating to New Continent expansion. Gorribal could get scooped back up if the Pantheon appears again, per Iridikrons plan.

[Dracullus]

Prediction: the first thing we see in the cinematic is a fade-in on Gorribal/The Sword.

..with a huge pirate flag on top. What a twist!

To be more serious. I think Thrall on Blizzcon art and Metzen (likely) revealing expansion are both hints that are worth consideration. But still strongest one is Iridikron cutscene in 10.1.5.

Of course it's more than likely that some shop thing is teasing expansion, but there are so many these days it's harder to guess expac just from them. Was there some unknown creature that could exist in new continent? Or maybe Kodo mount suggest it won't be new continent at all?

[Jolly Roger]

gather up all of the crew
its time to ship out maiden's brew
Thrall will be "sail with me"
heroes by our side
Gallywix shall rise again
reunite with our old friends
wait for the storm to finally end

[RahEndymion]

Why would you believe that's the case? Clearly the obvious interpretation is that Blizzard likes to throw hints at what they're going to do next, and the promo art is part of that process. It isn't anyone here believing that they control what Blizzard does, it's recognizing that Blizzard is giving us an Easter egg to generate hype. They do it all the time, and they've done it repeatedly in some cases. The promo key art is one such repeatable example.

But you're assuming it's an intentional hint rather than just tying the media in with the release. It could be for Cataclysm classic, it could be because of Metzens return and Thrall is his most iconic character, it could be that Thrall will play an integral part in the next xpac.

I wasn't suggesting people here think they control blizzard, that's an odd read. I was suggesting people here think everything is some form of intentional hint rather than just common sense marketing. Are we also suggesting that Lilith and Winston are going to be very important characters in D4/OW2 in the next year too or do you think the WoW team single headedly controls Blizzcon banners?

While I think it is possible, maybe even likely, that Thrall will be a prominent character in the next expansion and that will have influenced their decisions for the banner; it's also very possible that the xpac theme and location does not feature any as yet known major characters outside of the generic few talking heads that would never be on the blizzcon art in the first place.

My point was more so that not everything is an intentional breadcrumb.

[Cheezits]

gather up all of the crew
its time to ship out maiden's brew
Thrall will be "sail with me"
heroes by our side
Gallywix shall rise again
reunite with our old friends
wait for the storm to finally end

Thrall CONFIRMED for pirate expansion!

[Worldshaper]

Twist. We sail away with the pirates. But then Queen Azshara drowns them all and sinks their ships. Underwater expansion in which we're the only survivor.

Twist. We sail away with the pirates. But then the Harbinger flicks her finger at us, sending us into space. Space pirates!

Twist. We're all just downloading content illegaly, we didn't want for any of this to happen. Honest.

Twist. It's not about pirates.