The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Well Done Steak]

I’m not expecting instant insubordination, I expect any at all, and there was none.

The Majority of the horde weren’t planning on dethroning her like Garrosh, her she had popular support and the token forces that stood against her couldn’t have taken her down even with the alliance army backing them up.

And as far as the forsaken them self go, none of the council members in question were ever against her, you can even find some of them after she leaves who tell you that they were loyal to her but after she abandoned them they will stick with the horde.

There was none? Saurfang begged players to not use the plague in Lorederon and then got himself arrested.

Bain then returned jaina's brother to her.

Garrosh had popular vote also and also had control of most of the horde. Both cases the rebels only had access to a handful of forces, since you know... The WARCHIEF had supreme command and you lower ranking members ain't gonna do shit.

As for the forsaken, they're gonna look after their own and they need leadership. Renouncing sylvanas and regretting their part, along with sending troops to defend Amirdrassil is gonna have to be enough. So the alliance needs to suck it up and accept it without causing another useless war because they're still upset at a lack of justice against some forsaken.

[Samin]

Again we already fought Tyr in the Megadungeon. And why the hell would you want to waste Avaloren, which can be easily a continent on it's own just to make it a patch zone??

What's your problem with Tyr? He will obviously continue to play a role at least in DF. Just because we fought him (an alternate version) in a dungeon doesn't mean he's done with for this expansion.

[Well Done Steak]

Well ya Saurfang is a blundering moron but even if horde members didn’t want to follow him they could have joined any number of natural factions to show case an actual split in the horde post darnnassas so the horde would atleast have some plausible deniability post BFA.

As is now it’s totally unbelievable any one would let the horde and even more so abunch of Sylvanas’s core leading members who now run the forsaken any where near night elf territory or a new world tree like we see in 10.2.

Abandoning is also cause for death...

The forsaken arent the only ones defending the tree... They have a lot of eyes on them so they wouldn't try anything stupid.

This is their ultimate atonement. So yeah it's believable.

This is also a game where the characters sense of justice isn't as complex and nuanced as real life human...

[Shadowferal]

This is their ultimate atonement. So yeah it's believable.

"Believable?"
It shouldn't be to Nightelves

[Well Done Steak]

"Believable?"
It shouldn't be to Nightelves

Sure, which is why they're not the only ones defending it. Again, lots of eyes on them in a cosmic realm without any cosmic back up if they were scheming something stupid. Not like they have anything to gain...

Once the tree is defend though.... Should be in a better place with the nelves...

Similar to how Germany is part of NATO.

THATS JUST AN EXAMPLE.

This fictional situation is not as complex as real life affairs.

Point is the forsaken are atoning for their crimes and should be in a better place with the alliance post 10.2. Not saying some nelves can't hold a grudge either

[Lorgar Aurelian]

There was none? Saurfang begged players to not use the plague in Lorederon and then got himself arrested.

Bain then returned jaina's brother to her.

I already pointed to both Saurfang and Baine as to why doing nothing isn't an excuse, the “there was none” is for the majority of the horde who stuck with her until she left them which includes the whole of the forsaken council -Calia.

Garrosh had popular vote also and also had control of most of the horde.

He didn’t, the devs have said in a QnA years ago that the only people who supported Garrosh was young glory hungry orcs, the dragon maw clan and the black fuse company.

The cows trolls forsaken blood elfs and older orcs were all against him from the moment he became war chief as shown in the shattering, cata questing, tides of war, and mop questing where they all break off leading into SoO.

As for the forsaken, they're gonna look after their own and they need leadership. Renouncing sylvanas and regretting their part, along with sending troops to defend Amirdrassil is gonna have to be enough. So the alliance needs to suck it up and accept it without causing another useless war because they're still upset at a lack of justice against some forsaken.

Ya and all of that is horrible writing.

The Forsaken can find new leader ship without letting abunch of Sylvanas’s core staff take up the roles as seen by Calia and to a lesser extent Voss.

Pretending they regret any thing while giving all those involved -Sylvanas a free pass is a farce.

And no one in there right mind would let them send troops instead of turning them away and telling the horde to send the Earthen ring or other members who didn’t take part in BFA.

[Well Done Steak]

I already pointed to both Saurfang and Baine as to why doing nothing isn't an excuse, the “there was none” is for the majority of the horde who stuck with her until she left them which includes the whole of the forsaken council -Calia.

He didn’t, the devs have said in a QnA year ago that the only people who supported Garrosh was young glory hungry orcs, the dragon maw clan and the black fuse company.

The cows trolls forsaken blood elfs and older orcs were all against him from the moment he became war chief as shown in the shattering, cata questing, tides of war, and mop questing where they all break off leading into SoO.

Ya and all of that is horrible writing.

The Forsaken can find new leader ship without letting abunch of Sylvanas’s core staff take up the roles as seen by Calia and to a lesser extent Voss.

Pretending they regret any thing while giving all those involved -Sylvanas a free pass is a farce.

And no one in there right mind would let them send troops instead of turning them away and telling the horde to send the CC or other members who didn’t take part in BFA.

Not everyone can have the balls of Baine and saurfang and not care about potentially facing death for insubordination.

That's why it took the combined force of the alliance and voljin rebels to take him out right... Garrosh had a majority of the overall forces. How else you justify needing such a massive force.

Dude this is warcraft not GoT. The writing doesn't need to be Grammy worthy. It's believable enough for warcraft.

If this was GoT, the alliance would have dismantled the horde in MoP.

They're protecting the tree under the watchful eye of EVERYONE and they're leadership renounced sylvanas. Even if some of the council was part of sylv circle, AT LEAST they have calia and voss to even it out somewhat.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Why would Tyr side against the other keepers when his motivations seems heavily tilted towards pushing the Titan agenda?

Odyn and Tyr have the same overall objective, but their means to reach such an end may be different, as may be their interpretations as to how that objective should manifest. Trotsky and Stalin were both Marxist-Leninists trying to establish an authoritarian/statist communist social order, but their visions of how to achieve that and how that would look in practice were very different. Same thing with how Hitler and Strasser had different ideas of what a German ethnostate should look like. The same category of ideology doesn't preclude violent infighting between schools.

In the case of Odyn and Tyr, Odyn prefers using Titanforged life and—implicitly, from his actions in Legion—other humanoid lifeforms as enforcers through a sort of religious meritocracy. Conversely, Tyr seems to prefer the idea of an appointed hierarchical system of control enforced more indirectly by pumping Order juice into the water to convert and control non-Titanforged life. In retrospect, this makes Odyn actually look more like the lesser of two evils because he allows for a degree of free will, so I am actually wondering if we'll instead butt heads with Tyr, who strikes me as less permissive in that regard.

[Sondrelk]

Odyn and Tyr have the same overall objective, but their means to reach such an end may be different, as may be their interpretations as to how that objective should manifest. Trotsky and Stalin were both Marxist-Leninists trying to establish an authoritarian/statist communist social order, but their visions of how to achieve that and how that would look in practice were very different. Same thing with how Hitler and Strasser had different ideas of what a German ethnostate should look like. The same category of ideology doesn't preclude violent infighting between schools.

Infighting maybe, but all that sounds to me is that Tyr would then be even more devious by using us to elimiate his rival Odyn.
This still doesnt really answer me why Tyr would look at the Aspect experiment failing in whatever way, and then deciding to still side with us because Odyn wants to kill us, whereas he just wants to put us into eternal stasis or whatever.

There doesnt seem to be much wiggle room in the Titan agenda as we see it. Loken was seemingly the only Keeper in Ulduar willing to treat non-Titan creations as anything more than aggressive wildlife. So unless Tyr was secretly always of the same mind it doesnt seem like he would necessarily side with us against Odyn.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Infighting maybe, but all that sounds to me is that Tyr would then be even more devious by using us to elimiate his rival Odyn.
This still doesnt really answer me why Tyr would look at the Aspect experiment failing in whatever way, and then deciding to still side with us because Odyn wants to kill us, whereas he just wants to put us into eternal stasis or whatever.

I had actually only just edited my post when you posted to point out that Tyr is just as, if not more, sinister. I'm honestly unsure if we'll even certainly be taking sides, since this infighting could just be their business without room for our intervention. If we do, though, I could actually see us siding with Odyn instead of Tyr if things between them come to blows. I doubt it will be a matter of either trying to exterminate us, just one having a more appealing vision of the future than the other.

Loken was seemingly the only Keeper in Ulduar willing to treat non-Titan creations as anything more than aggressive wildlife. So unless Tyr was secretly always of the same mind it doesnt seem like he would necessarily side with us against Odyn.

Both Odyn and Tyr have made use of non-Titanforged proxies, the former in Legion by recruiting them to the Valarjar and the latter by uplifting/controlling them back in Azeroth's prehistory.

[Ersula]

"Believable?"
It shouldn't be to Nightelves

Besides all this being Elune's master plan, this shouldn't be so contentious considering the contingency of Forsaken who came to defend the tree are led by a Kaldorei General who died defending teldrassil. Imagine Tyrande telling off Delaryn; that makes no sense. Being so dramatic about it makes Alliance stans seem like they have a victim complex.

[doledippers]

interesting that the glad mounts are patch themed. gold/fiery for 10.1, green for 10.2, and the datamined season 4 one is purply and void looking. Seems on brand for a patch where we'd deal with iridikron. Obv doesn't guarantee a full patch 10.3, it could easily be for a season 4 SL type thing, but the theme matches what we expect to happen in a 10.3

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Not everyone can have the balls of Baine and saurfang and not care about potentially facing death for insubordination.

Baine having balls? Ha, No.

Baine defecting shows any one in the horde could do it and the only reason they didn’t is because they agreed with her as Lor'themar says him self in BFA when Baine is freed.

That's why it took the combined force of the alliance and voljin rebels to take him out right... Garrosh had a majority of the overall forces. How else you justify needing such a massive force.

again the Devs them selfs have already told us who stood with him, your just wrong.

Dude this is warcraft not GoT. The writing doesn't need to be Grammy worthy. It's believable enough for warcraft.

mabye for what wow has become post BFA but what it’s become is bloody awful writing wise.

Not to say that wow was GoT pre BFA but it was still far better then now where stuff like this actually did effect rather factions would work with each other. See the wrath gate Ulduar and Icc for an example.

They're protecting the tree under the watchful eye of EVERYONE and they're leadership renounced sylvanas. Even if some of the council was part of sylv circle, AT LEAST they have calia and voss to even it out somewhat.

again they didn't even renounce Sylvanas, they stuck with her until she left them and then said if she was going to abandon them they would stick with the horde without her.

If she has never left them they would still all be happily serving under her.

[Xilurm]

BFA starts with Saurfang going against her direct orders, ends with Baine and abunch of others doing the same thing, and even Sylvanas her self and many others went against Garrosh's direct orders when he was warchief in cata.

"just following order" is not an excuse.

Considering that's how it works irl, it's more than a good enough excuse.

[Ersula]

If she has never left them they would still all be happily serving under her.

I think the majority of the horde leadership assembling an army against her before the Mak'gora would have been a big issue for the citizens actually.

[Well Done Steak]

Baine having balls? Ha, No.

Baine defecting shows any one in the horde could do it and the only reason they didn’t is because they agreed with her as Lor'themar says him self in BFA when Baine is freed.

again the Devs them selfs have already told us who stood with him, your just wrong.

mabye for what wow has become post BFA but what it’s become is bloody awful writing wise.

Not to say that wow was GoT pre BFA but it was still far better then now where stuff like this actually did effect rather factions would work with each other. See the wrath gate Ulduar and Icc for an example.



again they didn't even renounce Sylvanas, they stuck with her until she left them and then said if she was going to abandon them they would stick with the horde without her.

If she has never left them they would still all be happily serving under her.

Just because anyone could do it doesn't mean they will. Not everyone wants to die for a cause. And that's okay and completely believable.

Yes, they did renounce her after she abandoned them, otherwise they'd try to still be with her or serve her and the jailer somehow. Doesn't matter what would have happened if she didn't leave.

She left and they stayed with the horde and now are making up for it by protecting amir under the watchful eye of the world and hopefully redeem themselves.

Again, at least the council has voss and calia as well.

[Zaganite]

maybe they will delay Drae because of the Manari quest?

It still feels a bit out of place, the Manari quest seems like the perfect heritage quest (backstory and moving forward etc) so its a bit weird

[Hitei]

Besides all this being Elune's master plan, this shouldn't be so contentious considering the contingency of Forsaken who came to defend the tree are led by a Kaldorei General who died defending teldrassil. Imagine Tyrande telling off Delaryn; that makes no sense. Being so dramatic about it makes Alliance stans seem like they have a victim complex.

"Hey, so, we're gonna bring in a bunch of convicted sex offenders to do security for this kids' parade."
"Wha-"
"No, no, no, it's fiiiine bro, relax. Chris Hansen is the one giving them orders and he's against child molesters, so it's not even a big deal, stop being so dramatic! Sheesh, what a victim complex."

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Considering that's how it works irl, it's more than a good enough excuse.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders

[Sondrelk]

I had actually only just edited my post when you posted to point out that Tyr is just as, if not more, sinister. I'm honestly unsure if we'll even certainly be taking sides, since this infighting could just be their business without room for our intervention. If we do, though, I could actually see us siding with Odyn instead of Tyr if things between them come to blows. I doubt it will be a matter of either trying to exterminate us, just one having a more appealing vision of the future than the other.



Both Odyn and Tyr have made use of non-Titanforged proxies, the former in Legion by recruiting them to the Valarjar and the latter by uplifting/controlling them back in Azeroth's prehistory.

My personal pet theory regarding Tyr is that he always planned on a Dragons 3.0 by infusing pure Order magic into dragon eggs, thereby making what are effectively Titan-Forged dragons. In this case however the Aspects would just be a previous experiment that he doesnt necessarily care all that much about, instead treating them more like pets than fellow sentient beings. The High Evolutionary was after all a big deal in recent Marvel movies, so I wouldnt be surprised if the writers stole some ideas from him when writing the inevitable Tyr ressurection plot.

Regardless we can only wait and see. There is afterall nothing definite until Tyr is actually ressurected. Presumably later in this patch.