The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Polybius]

I never understood the need to retcon the Progenitors. Their lore has such little relevance to the Cosmic Forces and their rivalry, it's funny y'all think they matter beyond the Zereth's and the outside force.

They're tied to the Shadowlands and the device used by Zovaal. They created Denathrius, and indirectly the dreadlords, who play a role in dividing and conquering forces across worlds.

[Santandame]

Except that the Mag'har are now aligned with the Horde and are intertwined into Thrall's family, so yes they do have influence. Further, Yrel's goals are always conversion first and conquest second. It's not difficult to see Yrel viewing the Mag'har as the ones that got away and will likely seek to convert them first and foremost and then move to convert the rest of Azeroth immediately afterward. And like I said in my original post, it is the Mag'har that know the Lightbound better than any other race on Azeroth, which also makes them a prime target.



Yrel is not that type of villain.

You are making some huge sweeping assumptions about Yrel as a villain because we only saw her as a villain for about 30 seconds of screen time total. You don’t know what kind of villain she is, none of us do. So you can’t say with the certainty that you are; what kind of villain she is and what her motivation would be.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

it is the Mag'har that know the Lightbound better than any other race on Azeroth, which also makes them a prime target.

The light forged spent ten thousand years fighting the legion, there's no way the Mag'har would know more about the alt goats then them in the 30 or so year gap from the end of wod.

[Santandame]

Yes, but they're only ever mentioned and utilized for that plot specifically, and narratively, that's due to Zovaal's millennia spanning plan of fucking with the Forces so he could try and remake reality.

Outside of that, and outside of them seemingly creating the Cosmology entire, the Progenitors themselves have no massive impact on the Cosmic Rivalries, and they only seem to take part in the lore after long periods of build up or so.

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Who said we need to go to a planet? I'm saying let's go DEEP into the Nether, like beyond Fel Worlds or so. I wanna see layers of chaos, I wanna see planes of the Nether we've never seen prior.

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If the Nether is gonna take from the Warp, I'd rather they embrace it. Give us infinitely expanding layers of existence which transcend eachother on an unquantifiable scale. Make everything chaotic asf.

Eh, no thanks. You’re pretty much proposing Shadowlands but chaos themed instead of death. It’ll just alienate the player base.

I don’t see the issue with just doing Nathreza. It’s an iconic Warcraft location that would be fitting of a Legion/Chaos themed expansion. Especially when you know Denathrius is going to be the primary villain or a major character at the least.

We can explore the cosmic realm of Chaos in a patch, it doesn’t really warrant anymore than that.

[Polybius]

Yes, but they're only ever mentioned and utilized for that plot specifically, and narratively, that's due to Zovaal's millennia spanning plan of fucking with the Forces so he could try and remake reality.

Outside of that, and outside of them seemingly creating the Cosmology entire, the Progenitors themselves have no massive impact on the Cosmic Rivalries, and they only seem to take part in the lore after long periods of build up or so.

I guess what I'm trying to say in the original post is their artifacts have been found. It's too reminiscent of what happened in Tazavesh. The text describes the chest as originating before Sargeras, with the cypher combining languages from beings of Order, Disorder, and Void. Of the currently established beings, the Progenitors are the only ones who found some kind of harmony between these elements.

I only added tinfoil hat bit because I think they tried to artificially imitate or perfect the creation of a Pantheon, whereas our current Titans are naturally formed from World Souls. I don't know how the First Ones will be written ages from now, if they truly created everything to reach a harmony against an outside force or if they're simply advanced beings with high organizational thinking.

[Teriz]

You are making some huge sweeping assumptions about Yrel as a villain because we only saw her as a villain for about 30 seconds of screen time total. You don’t know what kind of villain she is, none of us do. So you can’t say with the certainty that you are; what kind of villain she is and what her motivation would be.

Uh it's literally explained in the scenario. The Mag'har themselves state that Yrel forcibly converted people to their cause if they didn't willingly join their ranks. The Ogres pretty much give up and willingly join the Lightbound because they know they can't beat them. Yrel herself shows up and offers the Mag'har one last chance to convert. So yeah, we have multiple instances to see what type of villain she is. She isn't just swooping in and burning everything to the ground with no rhyme or reason like Deathwing did, so clearly she isn't the same type of villain.

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The light forged spent ten thousand years fighting the legion, there's no way the Mag'har would know more about the alt goats then them in the 30 or so year gap from the end of wod.

The Lightforged isn't the same as the Lightbound. You're talking about two completely different Draenei groups with completely different motivations. Heck, they're not even from the same timeline/universe.

[Polybius]

Eh, no thanks. You’re pretty much proposing Shadowlands but chaos themed instead of death. It’ll just alienate the player base.

I don’t see the issue with just doing Nathreza. It’s an iconic Warcraft location that would be fitting of a Legion/Chaos themed expansion. Especially when you know Denathrius is going to be the primary villain or a major character at the least.

We can explore the cosmic realm of Chaos in a patch, it doesn’t really warrant anymore than that.

So far the cosmic chart only shows symmetry and alignment with worlds. Hence Azeroth being the center and other worlds orbiting around it. I feel its been blown out of proportion by literal interpretations when it's purely metaphysical.

[Gloriandus]

paladins and priests
titans now believe they must reorder cosmos
illidan escapes, starts events of story, dies
world revamp is tied to reordering

[Santandame]

Uh it's literally explained in the scenario. The Mag'har themselves state that Yrel forcibly converted people to their cause if they didn't willingly join their ranks. The Ogres pretty much give up and willingly join the Lightbound because they know they can't beat them. Yrel herself shows up and offers the Mag'har one last chance to convert. So yeah, we have multiple instances to see what type of villain she is. She isn't just swooping in and burning everything to the ground with no rhyme or reason like Deathwing did, so clearly she isn't the same type of villain.

There is nothing to indicate that she would cross time and space to hunt down a small group of Orcs who refused to convert to her religion. It’s not as if it’s a similar deal with the Legion and the Draenei either, which was due to Kil’jaeden’s obsessive vendetta against Velen.

Just as @Hitei said, it’s just like Azshara popping up just to wipe out the Ankoan because they opposed her once.

You’re quite literally making things up. We haven’t seen enough of Yrel as a villain to know that she would harbour either a grudge against or have an obsession with with the Mag’har.

When/if she shows up, you can bet it’s for entirely different reasons and not because the Mag’har were the ones who got away.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The Lightforged isn't the same as the Lightbound. You're talking about two completely different Draenei groups with completely different motivations. Heck, they're not even from the same timeline.

There not the same group but we know form Wod they have the same tech history and teachings prior to us showing up and the light forged had ten thousand years to learn the ins and outs of it in a war setting.

The only thing the alt goats could have that ours don’t know about is what ever the orcs in there force came up with and given that the peak of orc tech was a big iron ball that exploded it’s safe to say they aren’t going to have much of note to add.

[Santandame]

There not the same group but we know form Wod they have the same tech history and teachings prior to us showing up and the light forged had ten thousand years to learn the ins and outs of it in a war setting.

The only thing the alt goats could have that ours don’t know about is what ever the orcs in there force came up with and given that the peak of orc tech was a big iron ball that exploded it’s safe to say they aren’t going to have much of note to add.

Also the fact that they are run by the same Naaru.

[Polybius]

i mean, considering Zereth Mortis, as well as Odyn's edicts talking about Zereth Ordus and referring to the First Ones as the "makers", I am pretty sure the idea is that the First Ones created the World Souls and launched them into the beyond from Zereth Ordus.

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The whole Cosmology is essentially a harmony of 6 forces, and it's especially hard to retcon something like this when we've already been to one of their workshops, etc.

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Besides, none of the Progenitors magics screams "shamanistic".

It was more a metaphor for the way they manipulate the cosmic forces like shamans do for elements. But you're right, their magics seem to contain more than they do employ said cosmic forces.

[Chickat]

the emeral dream should have been as big as argus (in game) to flesh out the place a bit more. right now it looks just like another forest.

Its pretty big already. Its around the same size as the Ohnarahn plains already according to some dataminers. That is one of the largest patch zones ever made.

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We need a new version of Taylor Swift for it.

Fun fact. I jever really got the Taylor Swift fascination in the past few threads but recent events have made me somewhat of a fledgling Swifty. So yes Queen lets add her.

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If there were three approaches for the visual part of World Revamp, which one would you go for?

1. Re-texturing - leaving continents basically as their are, and simply breathing a new life into them - re-texturing, changing assets 1:1 with new, high-res ones.
2. Soft Revamp - something along the lines of Cataclysm; reshaping and re-texturing the world. Giving some zones new sculpting / new terrain shape - more or less, rebuilding them.
3. Hard Revamp - basically, putting the stuff we have now to the trash can (with possibility to return to old world in some way of course) and remaking the zones from scratch, using old world as somewhat of a blueprint:
- prunning some unnecessary zones completely;
- merging 2-3 zones, into a single, large zone with different biomes (like Azure Span), which allows for the world to be more immersive and natural, especially with the introduction of Dragonriding in the old world (like fusing Trisifal Glades and both Plaguelands into a Lordaeron, or something, you get the idea);
- making zone-crossings / borders more seamless visually, so we don't go from lushy, green forest straight to barren lands within 20 yards;

I want a hard revamp but i have a feeling its going yo be somewhere in-between a soft revamp and plain on texturing. Some zones will get new quests but a lot of quests on old zones are still fine.

I think the revamp will look like Arathi and Darkshore. Not up to par with current expansions but somewhere in-between MoP and WoD graphically.

I also think there's a good chance they dont touch certain zones like Vashjir and Deepholme. I think Twilight Highlands and Uldum would get more narrative updates but very little graphical updates. Hyjal will be the most changed cata zone as it's probabky the new night elf capital.

I think its possible Tol Barad will move closer to Gilneas and be able to be flown to from there.

[Hitei]

I think the revamp will look like Arathi and Darkshore. Not up to par with current expansions but somewhere in-between MoP and WoD graphically.

I really don't feel like this works well as an expansion.

Most old zones are tiny and have large design problems especially if dynamic flying is being brought forward as something available from the get go, a refreshing like Arathi/Darkshore doesn't do much to increase their novelty or appeal as a location for a two year expansion cycle (or especially a four year single continent expansion cycle).

I don't think a soft revamp works as an expansion without the expansion also introducing large new zones like Cata did, and they already addressed on multiple occasions that the split there was a bad idea and didn't work out well.

So I feel like it's either a hard revamp or not a revamp at all. And given stuff like DF being the starter experience going forward and the fact that they bothered to update Arathi/Darkshore so recently, I still really think a revamp isn't as assured as people seem to believe.

[Teriz]

There is nothing to indicate that she would cross time and space to hunt down a small group of Orcs who refused to convert to her religion. It’s not as if it’s a similar deal with the Legion and the Draenei either, which was due to Kil’jaeden’s obsessive vendetta against Velen.

Where did I say that’s the reason she’s crossing time and space? The reason she’s crossing time and space is to build a massive army of the light. I said that when Yrel gets to Azeroth, the Mag’har are going to be prime targets, not the only target, and not the only goal.

Just as @Hitei said, it’s just like Azshara popping up just to wipe out the Ankoan because they opposed her once.

No, that’s not what I’m saying at all.

You’re quite literally making things up. We haven’t seen enough of Yrel as a villain to know that she would harbour either a grudge against or have an obsession with with the Mag’har.

Uh, she was trying to kill them and wipe out their culture. That wouldn’t change if she encounters them again on Azeroth. In fact it makes the Mag’har prime targets because Yrel already knows that they will never convert to her cause.

When/if she shows up, you can bet it’s for entirely different reasons and not because the Mag’har were the ones who got away.

Yeah, I never said she was showing up solely because of the Mag’har.

[Houle]

Reminder that the First Ones have remained an unknown variable til SL, so expect similar til we enter the next cosmic domain.

Reminder that they didnt fckn exist before SL, and thus simply couldnt have been used that much so far.
Only reason we havent seen much of them so far is bc they were introduced into the story one xpac ago. Thats no indication about how large or small their role going forward is going to be.

[Teriz]

There not the same group but we know form Wod they have the same tech history and teachings prior to us showing up and the light forged had ten thousand years to learn the ins and outs of it in a war setting.

The only thing the alt goats could have that ours don’t know about is what ever the orcs in there force came up with and given that the peak of orc tech was a big iron ball that exploded it’s safe to say they aren’t going to have much of note to add.

Uh the alt goats also have a fanatical drive to make everyone a slave to the naaru. The lightforged do not, and aren’t beholden to a malevolent naaru with clearly sinister motivations. That’s a rather fundamental difference between the two, and the Mag’har understand that better than the lightforged.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Uh the alt goats also have a fanatical drive to make everyone a slave to the naaru. The lightforged do not, and aren’t beholden to a malevolent naaru with clearly sinister motivations. That’s a rather fundamental difference between the two, and the Mag’har understand that better than the lightforged.

They were literally beholden to the same malevolent Narru with a fanatical drive to wipe out the legion or turn them to the light like they did the dread lord.

They are/were 1 to 1 the same other then the last 30 years since Wod and ten thousand years of using all the same tech with all the same teaching will always beat out 30 years of getting beat up by stuff you don’t understand.

[AOL Instant Messenger]

Uh the alt goats also have a fanatical drive to make everyone a slave to the naaru. The lightforged do not, and aren’t beholden to a malevolent naaru with clearly sinister motivations. That’s a rather fundamental difference between the two, and the Mag’har understand that better than the lightforged.

As I've said before, we don't know the full story with the Lightbound. While it's likely—going off the general lack of nuance to the recent writing trend of "all sides bad, assume position for mortal wank"—that it won't be anything other than "evil Lightbound enact horrible unprovoked imperialism on the harmless babies who definitely never did imperialism", a rare and tragic submission to Watsonian analysis of Warcraft lore leaves me wondering whether or not Geya'rah is a reliable source. Keep in mind she's seemingly an admirer of Grom, who is a hyperexpansionist military warlord, and she seems possessed of a certain reactionary sentiment. It is possible that the majority of Draenor is entirely on-board with the Lightbound and that the Mag'har are just a crazy reactionary group that went rogue the moment they detected a threat to their cultural sovereignty and religious traditions in the mass conversions of certain clans.

The only thing the alt goats could have that ours don’t know about is what ever the orcs in there force came up with and given that the peak of orc tech was a big iron ball that exploded it’s safe to say they aren’t going to have much of note to add.

Honestly, I think that's an underestimation of the value of orcish technology. There's a recurring theme in Warcraft lore of younger, less advanced races learning and innovating more quickly than their more well-established peers; this was (probably accidentally) verified in WoD when the incredibly primitive orcish race managed to rapidly adapt to the introduction of industrial military technology and all the requisite advances to actually apply their new arms. While any orcish innovations won't be as impressive as the draenic contributions, I could see orcish influence leading to an alteration in the Lightbound's military doctrine and technological applications to reflect a more aggressive military ethos on the part of their orcish members. They also are under entirely different circumstances that could influence their use of technology because the Lightforged were fighting a guerilla war across the cosmos against a more powerful enemy, while the Lightbound are seemingly orienting their military focus around steamrolling resisting populations.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Honestly, I think that's an underestimation of the value of orcish technology. There's a recurring theme in Warcraft lore of younger, less advanced races learning and innovating more quickly than their more well-established peers; this was (probably accidentally) verified in WoD when the incredibly primitive orcish race managed to rapidly adapt to the introduction of industrial military technology and all the requisite advances to actually apply their new arms. While any orcish innovations won't be as impressive as the draenic contributions, I could see orcish influence leading to an alteration in the Lightbound's military doctrine and technological applications to reflect a more aggressive military ethos on the part of their orcish members. They also are under entirely different circumstances that could influence their use of technology because the Lightforged were fighting a guerilla war across the cosmos against a more powerful enemy, while the Lightbound are seemingly orienting their military focus around steamrolling resisting populations.

If blackfuse wasn’t a thing or the maghar had brought any thing other then iron stars over in bfa I might agree.

But as far as what we actually see it’s just orcs using a bunch of goblin made blueprints and tech which they apparently didn’t progress at all in the 30 year span of Wod to BFA leading to there greatest achievement still just being iron stars.

Mabye they could use goat tech to make even bigger iron stars out of crystal though.