The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Just because anyone could do it doesn't mean they will. Not everyone wants to die for a cause. And that's okay and completely believable.

these are all the same people who were willing to die for her cause under her command.

So no it’s not believable that if they were against her they’d do nothing because there scared to die.

Yes, they did renounce her after she abandoned them, otherwise they'd try to still be with her or serve her and the jailer somehow.

not following her after she left them =\= renouncing her.

They weren’t against any thing she did prior to leaving them, they were just against being abandoned.

[Ersula]

They didn’t care when Baine was deemed a traitor as per what Lor'themar said and didn’t care when people started to defect and marched on org, so it’s unlikely.

That's not what you said. You proclaimed the citizens of the Horde are complicit becuase they were ambivalent or otherwise unaffected. And that the horde would be continuing as normal if Sylvanas didn't leave after the Mak'gora, but there is no universe where that happens: They assembled most of the forces of the Horde at the gates of Org like during the seige of Orgrimmar. The storytellers properly conveyed a major political upheaval would have happened no matter what.

You're not bringing anything to this conversation. You're decided the situation was unforgivable & that's going to be your opinion forever. You're not presenting any new information to those of us with a different stance on this. There's no point to keep discussing this.

[Shadowferal]

You're not bringing anything to this conversation. You're decided the situation was unforgivable & that's going to be your opinion forever. You're not presenting any new information to those of us with a different stance on this. There's no point to keep discussing this.

Not much to say when one side promotes a Holocaust of Kaldorei.

[Hitei]

Tyrande isn't happy about it. Of course, they're not going to trust them. But the point is they're desperate for help so they're not going to be turned away. That's also part of the reason the Forsaken are there.

This doesn't really check out when there are other factions, just as capable of helping, and who aren't the ones who were actively pursuing genocide against the Night Elves a few years ago. Why isn't it Nightborne coming to assist as a gesture of good will for Tyrande's forces fighting their war? Why isn't it the Darkspear when Tyrande's forces were the only thing that stopped their revolution being stomped out at the gates of Org? Both of those are Horde forces indebted to Tyrande's reluctant help, with druidic elements in their ranks.

This isn't happening in Tirisfal and the Forsaken are the ones who happen to be right there to help. It could have been anyone and they went with an actively bad choice instead of even an indifferent one.

[Well Done Steak]

these are all the same people who were willing to die for her cause under her command.

So no it’s not believable that if they were against her they’d do nothing because there scared to die.

not following her after she left them =\= renouncing her.

They weren’t against any thing she did prior to leaving them, they were just against being abandoned.

Right and being butt hurt instead of trying to still retain her favor is renouncing her...

Following her doesn't guarantee death. Abandoning your post does.

[Lady Atia]

What's your problem with Tyr? He will obviously continue to play a role at least in DF. Just because we fought him (an alternate version) in a dungeon doesn't mean he's done with for this expansion.

I have a problem with fighting Tyr again in a raid in 10.3. when we already fought him this Expansion. Of course he will play a role in the epilogue, but some people here are expecting him to be the endboss of Dragonflight lol. (Although clearly, Fyrrak is that)

[Lorgar Aurelian]

That's not what you said. You proclaimed the citizens of the Horde are complicit becuase they were ambivalent or otherwise unaffected. And that the horde would be continuing as normal if Sylvanas didn't leave after the Mak'gora, but there is no universe where that happens: They assembled most of the forces of the Horde at the gates of Org like during the seige of Orgrimmar. The storytellers properly conveyed a major political upheaval would have happened no matter what.

sure let me fix my last post then. The horde would have absolutely stuck with her.

As the sylvanas novel showed she still has support of the majority of the horde even with Saurfang/Baine at the gates which Nathanos points out to her and wanting to know if they will turn on the horde after the battle.

You're not bringing anything to this conversation. You're decided the situation was unforgivable & that's going to be your opinion forever. You're not presenting any new information to those of us with a different stance on this. There's no point to keep discussing this.

don’t project your doings onto me.

I’ve already directly quoted shadows rising on this topic, sited Dev Q&A’s about Garrosh in a similar situation and how blizzard wrote such things in the past with examples like a ulduar and icc.

You might add nothing but I haven’t been shy to do so.

- - - Updated - - -

Right and being butt hurt instead of trying to still retain her favor is renouncing her...

No it’s not.

Following her doesn't guarantee death. Abandoning your post does.

It doesn’t as shown by those who joined Baine/Saurfang and every one who stood against Garrosh.

[Sondrelk]

I remember now that they mentioned DF would open with new dock revamps for Stormwind and Org. That didn't end up happening for either of them, and we didn't get HD Stormwind boats until 10.2. I don't think we've ever gotten an HD Orc boat, not counting the Maghar cruisers.

Wonder what happened there? Did they realize it was silly to only revamp the docks instead of the whole city?

I imagine they just never got around to it, and by the time the deadline was closing in they realized they couldn't make it look good enough that it was worth it.

Waiting for the opportunity for a proper big revamp was likely also a part of it. It's definitely easier to remake the entire thing in one go, rather than have to consider future changes to the docks.

[Ersula]

This doesn't really check out when there are other factions, just as capable of helping, and who aren't the ones who were actively pursuing genocide against the Night Elves a few years ago. Why isn't it Nightborne coming to assist as a gesture of good will for Tyrande's forces fighting their war? Why isn't it the Darkspear when Tyrande's forces were the only thing that stopped their revolution being stomped out at the gates of Org? Both of those are Horde forces indebted to Tyrande's reluctant help, with druidic elements in their ranks.

The "part" I was referring to was that they're there specifically because they want to be forgiven. The strategic penance. It's self-interested but that's how motives work. And they have no good reason to distrust Delaryn.

Not much to say when one side promotes a Holocaust of Kaldorei.

• The Aspects bless Nordrassil so the Night Elves will forever bear the responsibility of protecting it from corruption.
• The Night Elves sacrifice their blessing to stop Archimonde from corrupting the planet.
• The Aspects sacrifice their blessing to stop Neltharian from burning the world to ashes.
• The Titans combine their powers to kill Argus, bringing the Jailers ancient plan remake the universe to fruition.
• Sylvanas burns Teldrassil. Elune allows this to give Ardenweald a boon of souls, but they actually go to the maw.
• N'zoth is defeated as direct result of Xal'atath being freed during the invasion of Azeroth by the Legion.
• Sylvanas destroys the helm of domination. Allowing us to travel to the Shadowlands & destroy the Jailer.
• Tyrande travels to the Maw & rescues the Night Elves who died during the burning of Teldrassil.
• Elune gives Tyrande a new World Tree.
• The Tree, being physically connected to all other World Trees through the dream, gives the Aspect's initial blessing back to them, restoring their powers.

Elune has been playing the long game this whole time. That's how gods work. It's her plan & when it goes bad they can't claim to be her stalwart acolytes & suddenly take issue with it. Take your complaints up with her.

As the sylvanas novel showed she still has support of the majority of the horde even with Saurfang/Baine at the gates which Nathanos points out to her and wanting to know if they will turn on the horde after the battle.

I guess you just forgot about the cinematic where all the major horde leaders (including Telanji for some insane reason, and excluding Gallywix) are discussing the actual battle that's going to happen. They're explicitly there to overthrow her, even if Sylvanas & Nathanos don't know that yet.

[Cheezits]

I wouldn't be surprised if Chromatus is a secret final boss (dungeon? Vakthros?) and they tie his origin into Tys experiments somehow. Maybe the Chromatic were based on the experiments of the Silver Scale?

Tyr wakes up, has a fit/moral debate with Alex and Vyranoth, leaves to finish his projects and make Dragonflight 3.0. We go there to stop what he made, he leaves to go assemble the Watchers and decide what to do with us

[Shadowferal]

Elune has been playing the long game this whole time. That's how gods work. Take your complaints up with her.

Some of worst writing tripe ever.

[Sondrelk]

The first bit I could see being somewhat sensible and could contextualize the silver scale a bit. However, I don't see the Aspects being outmoded given he seemed to have a great deal of faith in them and already gave them incredibly crucial positions and invested a ridiculous degree of power in them, especially Nozdormu.

The same is arguably true for the Incarnates as well though, and they are also presumably one of Tyrs experiments.

[Cheezits]

Some of worst writing tripe ever.

I really doubt Elune plotting everything is true, but moving the story from "Titans control Azeroth" to "Elune helps kick Azeroth away from Titan control" is a neat storyline IMO. Considering she is apparently friends with Eonar and Freya there's probably more to it than that as well.

[Le Conceptuel]

The same is arguably true for the Incarnates as well though, and they are also presumably one of Tyrs experiments.

I don't think that's ever implied. They seem to be a product of powerful Proto-Dragons becoming extremely close to the elements, somewhat analogous to the elemental ascendants from Cataclysm.

I really doubt Elune plotting everything is true, but moving the story from "Titans control Azeroth" to "Elune helps kick Azeroth away from Titan control" is a neat storyline IMO. Considering she is apparently friends with Eonar and Freya there's probably more to it than that as well.

Insofar as I read it, she's been confirmed as just being ridiculously fallible and short-sighted since Shadowlands, unless she was outright lying to the Winter Queen. Even if she really was playing the long game in letting Teldrassil burn, she definitely made it sound like the part about funneling souls into the Shadowlands was done without any knowledge of the consequences.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I guess you just forgot about the cinematic where all the major horde leaders (including Telanji for some insane reason, and excluding Gallywix) are discussing the actual battle that's going to happen. They're explicitly there to overthrow her, even if Sylvanas & Nathanos don't know that yet.

Again as per the sylvanas novel she had majority support while Saurfang and Co were at the gates and could beat there token force and the alliance together.

This is the last shown state of the lore around these events and the current canon rather you like it or not.

[Ersula]

Some of worst writing tripe ever.

The New Testament or the Old?

Insofar as I read it, she's been confirmed as just being ridiculously fallible and short-sighted since Shadowlands, unless she was outright lying to the Winter Queen. Even if she really was playing the long game in letting Teldrassil burn, she definitely made it sound like the part about funneling souls into the Shadowlands was done without any knowledge of the consequences.

How is that your takeaway? If anything the restoration of the Aspects (as revealed through NPC buff datamining) shows everything has gone according to plan. The Legion, Old Gods & Disgruntled Eternal Ones have all been destroyed & the stewards of Azeroth have been restored. Gods don't exist to protect individual mortals from suffering at the expense of the greater good.

[Le Conceptuel]

If anything the restoration of the Aspects (as revealed through NPC buff datamining) shows everything has gone according to plan. The Legion, Old Gods & Disgruntled Eternal Ones have all been destroyed & the stewards of Azeroth have been restored. Gods don't exist to protect individual mortals from suffering at the expense of the greater good.

But in Shadowlands, Elune herself all but outright states that she didn't know that the souls of everybody killed in Teldrassil would be funneled into the Maw.

[Cheezits]

The New Testament or the Old?How is that your takeaway? If anything the restoration of the Aspects (as revealed through NPC buff datamining) shows everything has gone according to plan. The Legion, Old Gods & Disgruntled Eternal Ones have all been destroyed & the stewards of Azeroth have been restored. Gods don't exist to protect individual mortals from suffering at the expense of the greater good.

The dragons are receiving ONE blessing from Amirdrassil- we don't know if that means Aspect powers or not. People are taking that buff way out of context.

It aligns with ideas that Tyr may not do what they think he will, but it doesn't mean that he or the Oathstones aren't the ones to empower them.

[Ersula]

But in Shadowlands, Elune herself all but outright states that she didn't know that the souls of everybody killed in Teldrassil would be funneled into the Maw.

She adjusted the plan. Some fallibility doesn't means she's short-sighted. In fact she's incredibly long-sighted when it comes to the wellbeing of the universe, as she should be. She didn't know the Jailer was a problem, so she didn't know about the Maw and at that point it didn't seem like the Aspects would need to be restored for future threats (like the one the Jailer implied). She even states when Tyrande got the tear she would have otherwise restored the Elves to life.

This is the last shown state of the lore around these events and the current canon rather you like it or not.

Personal fallibility does not trump events they're not privy to, just because they're in book form. Sylvanas thinks she has majority support. The Negotiation Cinematic shows this is not the case. You're forgetting the books are written with a lot of dramatic irony in-mind.

It aligns with ideas that Tyr may not do what they think he will, but it doesn't mean that he or the Oathstones aren't the ones to empower them.

Then it doesn't matter because Alexstrasza was working to restore Tyr anyway, and Elune knew she was going to. Obviously Fyrakk burning the planet would put restoring Tyr in jeopardy.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Personal fallibility does not trump events they're not privy to, just because they're in book form. Sylvanas thinks she has majority support. The Negotiation Cinematic shows this is not the case. You're forgetting the books are written with a lot of dramatic irony in-mind.

I’m not going to bother grabbing another book quote after the last two.

Blizzard disagrees with you and the Sylvanas novel is the last update on the events and is what is canon, she had majority support.