The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Cheezits]

Why can't they just give us the Tabard of the Silver Hand bruh?

You can get it, it just requires you to make Shadowmourne or buy it.

https://www.wowhead.com/wotlk/item=5...e-lightbringer

[Fahrad Wagner]

So which of them is the healer?

I laughed way more than I should have at this

[Luck4]

After Metzen left the Dev team, the game lost something hard to explain, even BFA, which had lots of established lore, the story felt underwhelming.

I think the game lost the action and the driving force events. Back in the day, we had actions and consequences all the time, but nowadays, especially in cinematics, the story has become some sort of romance novel, with people talking all the time about feelings. Meanwhile, in the past, cinematics were used to cover the most important events.

Let's take 10.1.7 cinematic, for instance:

The main plot point isn't the invasion of the Dream but rather Fryrakk and Vyranoth's disagreement and inevitable break-up.

Covering events and their outcomes became less important than the characters' relationships in most cinematics, but the player character isn't part of such relationships, not to mention that the Warcraft story was never portrayed in such a way.

Belular made a good video about this as well for those interested:

Spoiler: 

But now Metzen is back, so I hope he'll have enough power to change the story's direction and how it'll be portrayed.

--

[Woggmer]

One reason I think Tyr's Guard won't stick around: their tabard is a crappy recolor of the old Silver Hand one, and they didn't bother to update it in a way that would make it look good in modern content.

I see it as the exact opposite. That they are gonna stick around and we'll gain Tyr's favor.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

After Metzen left the Dev team, the game lost something hard to explain, even BFA, which had lots of established lore, the story felt underwhelming.

I think the game lost the action and the driving force events. Back in the day, we had actions and consequences all the time, but nowadays, especially in cinematics, the story has become some sort of romance novel, with people talking all the time about feelings. Meanwhile, in the past, cinematics were used to cover the most important events.

Didn’t he leave the wow team around the end of cata to focus on overwatch until he left blizzard?

It seems unlikely he’d have kept taking a big role in wows story while he was focusing on over watch.

[Lady Atia]

After Metzen left the Dev team, the game lost something hard to explain, even BFA, which had lots of established lore, the story felt underwhelming.

I think the game lost the action and the driving force events. Back in the day, we had actions and consequences all the time, but nowadays, especially in cinematics, the story has become some sort of romance novel, with people talking all the time about feelings. Meanwhile, in the past, cinematics were used to cover the most important events.

Let's take 10.1.7 cinematic, for instance:

The main plot point isn't the invasion of the Dream but rather Fryrakk and Vyranoth's disagreement and inevitable break-up.

Covering events and their outcomes became less important than the characters' relationships in most cinematics, but the player character isn't part of such relationships, not to mention that the Warcraft story was never portrayed in such a way.

Belular made a good video about this as well for those interested:

Spoiler: 

But now Metzen is back, so I hope he'll have enough power to change the story's direction and how it'll be portrayed.

--

I usually like Bel's content but that video, oh boy, is just full of toxic masculinity. Dragonflight is the best Expansion since Legion, and easily on par with MoP, but all he does is crying about it being not "brutal enough" and how guys would have prefered the ugly Draconids instead of the Dracthyr? WoW doesn't need to change "direction", it's already on the right track, all they need is a nostalgia bait expansion to bring back a mass of players similiar to WoD/Shadowlands (which had a huge number of new/returning players but didn't manage to retain them unlike Dragonflight).

[Cheezits]

The main plot point isn't the invasion of the Dream but rather Fryrakk and Vyranoth's disagreement and inevitable break-up.

Covering events and their outcomes became less important than the characters' relationships in most cinematics, but the player character isn't part of such relationships, not to mention that the Warcraft story was never portrayed in such a way.

Probably due to a belief that the average consumer cares more about emotional character drama than politics, grandiose events, etc. Don't have data to back that up but would definitely explain most of the cinematics in Legion/BFA/SL/DF being characters talking.

[Lady Atia]

I see it as the exact opposite. That they are gonna stick around and we'll gain Tyr's favor.

Yeah, they will use them to justify all Paladins for all races. They basically did the same with Warlocks, and tbh this is prolly the same way we will get DH's for all races down the line.

[Sondrelk]

After Metzen left the Dev team, the game lost something hard to explain, even BFA, which had lots of established lore, the story felt underwhelming.

I think the game lost the action and the driving force events. Back in the day, we had actions and consequences all the time, but nowadays, especially in cinematics, the story has become some sort of romance novel, with people talking all the time about feelings. Meanwhile, in the past, cinematics were used to cover the most important events.

Let's take 10.1.7 cinematic, for instance:

The main plot point isn't the invasion of the Dream but rather Fryrakk and Vyranoth's disagreement and inevitable break-up.

Covering events and their outcomes became less important than the characters' relationships in most cinematics, but the player character isn't part of such relationships, not to mention that the Warcraft story was never portrayed in such a way.

Belular made a good video about this as well for those interested:

Spoiler: 

But now Metzen is back, so I hope he'll have enough power to change the story's direction and how it'll be portrayed.

--

Every person in Blizzard is always the worst thing to ever happen to an artistic medium. That is, until they leave, at which point they become the only reasonable voice holding back the tide of shit.
Metzen is no exception. Stories were sometimes good, sometimes shit back when he was in charge, same as they are now.
Sometimes you got Stonetalon Mountains. Sometimes you got Thrall's wedding.
Sometimes in current expansions you get the Orc Heritage questline or Drustvar. Sometimes you get Siege of Dazar'alor.

[Murlocos]

After Metzen left the Dev team, the game lost something hard to explain, even BFA, which had lots of established lore, the story felt underwhelming.

Something important to note is that it wasn't just Metzen that left in 2016. Micky Neilson, who had been involved with the story since WC1, left a few months prior to Metzen. Dave Kosak, who was effectively Danuser's predecessor as Lead Narrative Designer since Cataclysm, left to join the Hearthstone team in November. The swerve in tone and direction from BfA onwards makes more sense in that context, it was quite a changing of the guard.

[Lady Atia]

Something important to note is that it wasn't just Metzen that left in 2016. Micky Neilson, who had been involved with the story since WC1, left a few months prior to Metzen. Dave Kosak, who was effectively Danuser's predecessor as Lead Narrative Designer since Cataclysm, left to join the Hearthstone team in November. The swerve in tone and direction from BfA onwards makes more sense in that context, it was quite a changing of the guard.

But BfA and prolly the start of Shadowlands was still Afrasiabis' work. You can't blame the current team for that lol.

[Luck4]

Probably due to a belief that the average consumer cares more about emotional character drama than politics, grandiose events, etc. Don't have data to back that up but would definitely explain most of the cinematics in Legion/BFA/SL/DF being characters talking.

I think Legion was balanced in this regard because it had everything. We had lots of dialogue, but every cinematic also covered a major event, like Kil'jaeden shit-talking Sargeras and then starting the invasion in the same cinematic, followed by Velen and Kil'jaeden talking in Tomb and ending with Illidan opening the way to Argus. Then we have Velen and Illidan talking before the Argus invasion, followed by a blow into Velen's faith as Xenedar gets hit and falls from the sky.

Anyway, it's just my 2 cents.

[Cheezits]

I think Legion was balanced in this regard because it had everything. We had lots of dialogue, but every cinematic also covered a major event, like Kil'jaeden shit-talking Sargeras and then starting the invasion in the same cinematic, followed by Velen and Kil'jaeden talking in Tomb and ending with Illidan opening the way to Argus. Then we have Velen and Illidan talking before the Argus invasion, followed by a blow into Velen's faith as Xenedar gets hit and falls from the sky.

Anyway, it's just my 2 cents.

Yeah I think part of the problem is that they stopping doing the future patch lead-ins in favor of spoiler/hype culture. Like they couldn't at least show us the Dream zone literally two days before the PTR dropped?

[Murlocos]

But BfA and prolly the start of Shadowlands was still Afrasiabis' work. You can't blame the current team for that lol.

Afrasiabi wasn't the sole writer in charge, as Kosak wasn't before nor Danuser after. Metzen himself wasn't even technically on the WoW team; he was Vice President of Creative Development at Blizzard and had his hands full with every franchise as Lorgar noted. I don't exclude Afrasiabi from the faults of the writing at all, but Danuser was already Senior Narrative Designer by October 2017, and then Lead Narrative Designer by May 2019. He was hardly in a helpless role at the time, and the writing hasn't seen a seismic shift away from what we've seen in SL to suggest Afrasiabi held the reins alone.

[jeezusisacasual]

But BfA and prolly the start of Shadowlands was still Afrasiabis' work. You can't blame the current team for that lol.

I actually liked the narrative direction of BFA until the whole Nzoth stuff happened and it was fairly gritty compared to what we have gotten since.

[Luck4]

Something important to note is that it wasn't just Metzen that left in 2016. Micky Neilson, who had been involved with the story since WC1, left a few months prior to Metzen. Dave Kosak, who was effectively Danuser's predecessor as Lead Narrative Designer since Cataclysm, left to join the Hearthstone team in November. The swerve in tone and direction from BfA onwards makes more sense in that context, it was quite a changing of the guard.

I remember Kosak. I miss his excitement, but I wasn't aware of the other guy (Micky Neilson).

This reinforces the feeling of a change in storytelling direction.

[Nymrohd]

I actually liked the narrative direction of BFA until the whole Nzoth stuff happened and it was fairly gritty compared to what we have gotten since.

At least it swung big. It was problematic in so many ways but it was anything but boring.

- - - Updated - - -

Probably due to a belief that the average consumer cares more about emotional character drama than politics, grandiose events, etc. Don't have data to back that up but would definitely explain most of the cinematics in Legion/BFA/SL/DF being characters talking.

A heartwarming scene works if it follows or precedes an epic moment because it either builts the stakes or releases the tension. But by itself . . .

[Sondrelk]

I think Legion was balanced in this regard because it had everything. We had lots of dialogue, but every cinematic also covered a major event, like Kil'jaeden shit-talking Sargeras and then starting the invasion in the same cinematic, followed by Velen and Kil'jaeden talking in Tomb and ending with Illidan opening the way to Argus. Then we have Velen and Illidan talking before the Argus invasion, followed by a blow into Velen's faith as Xenedar gets hit and falls from the sky.

Anyway, it's just my 2 cents.

I think Legion was just a very easy expansion to write for. The tone is right up WoWs alley, what with all the rule of cool and weird designs.
It could also defer a lot of the heavier stuff to nostalgia, or simply onto character who would be dead momentarily. They didn't have to consider Kil'haeden much as a character since he simply showed up, then "immediately" died in the raid.

Many of the other stories more tangential to the whole Legion shtick were not that good. Sylvanas being evil in Stormheim for instance.
Many of the other good stuff in Legion played to its strengths. Big emotions in the Anduin questline. Gul'dan being hammy. Skovald proving his worth to Odyn. Etc.

Everything with Velen was great as well though, and that was more subtle.
Don't know why storylines centered around Velen are so good. Maybe there is a writer who just really feels him, and has written all the questlines with him since then.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah I think part of the problem is that they stopping doing the future patch lead-ins in favor of spoiler/hype culture. Like they couldn't at least show us the Dream zone literally two days before the PTR dropped?

That was mostly just Argus in the sky of Azeroth though. And I don't see how you could do something similar to the Dream. We already have Emerald Dream zones, and the Dreamsurges are giving us the Emerald tint on everything.

[Nymrohd]

That was mostly just Argus in the sky of Azeroth though. And I don't see how you could do something similar to the Dream. We already have Emerald Dream zones, and the Dreamsurges are giving us the Emerald tint on everything.

Dreamsurges are imo suffering from the same thing that time rifts. They are just minimum effort. Like, I see portals to the waking dream around the zone. Why not have us able to use those portals to phase to a burning area of the dream that is a staging area for the druids? I mean they clearly are coming from somewhere. They had to build the assets for the fire areas anyway for the following patch.

It's content that is meant to be relevant for 4-8 weeks so it gets the proportional effort I suppose.

[Sondrelk]

Dreamsurges are imo suffering from the same thing that time rifts. They are just minimum effort. Like, I see portals to the waking dream around the zone. Why not have us able to use those portals to phase to a burning area of the dream that is a staging area for the druids? I mean they clearly are coming from somewhere. They had to build the assets for the fire areas anyway for the following patch.

It's content that is meant to be relevant for 4-8 weeks so it gets the proportional effort I suppose.

Personally I wonder why Dreamsurges doesn't affect all content in the zone. Specifically the zone specific content like Dragonbane Keep Sieges in Waking Shore, or the Aylaag quests in Ohn'ahra plains. Nor do I get why the rares couldn't also just drop their regular drops at an item level appropriate for the patch. Sure it would probably lead to some OP combinations, but the items will be obsolete soon anyways.