The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Polybius]

What if the Undermine is actually Uldaz? Either the city built on top of it... or the titan facility/city "re-decorated" after generations of goblins living in it without their knowledge?

This just reminded me of Ankahet. The Nerubians are technically using Titan technology. I'm surprised they never again brought up the incubation technology. Maybe an expansion exploring underground or 'Hollow Azeroth' wouldn't be bad after all, throw in Nazjatar proper for good measure.

[Nymrohd]

Is that so unbelievable?

Not at all but honestly that goes for all concepts. Imo they did not pull off Dragon Isles either.

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This just reminded me of Ankahet. The Nerubians are technically using Titan technology. I'm surprised they never again brought up the incubation technology. Maybe an expansion exploring underground or 'Hollow Azeroth' wouldn't be bad after all, throw in Nazjatar proper for good measure.

I did have this concept that Azshara had pierced through the Maelstorm and into a vast underground ocean that was effectively hanging over the world soul.

[Woggmer]

I agree with you.

I think some writers there at blizzard got carried away with overreaching and veeery vague up until the last patch scenario, going too deep on more mysterious creatures, themes that kills all the mystery, and i think they should just come back to - Balanced story, where we know who and what are the baddie intentions are, but during that some crazy twists, badass and emotional(legion Ysera or varian scene for example) scenes are happening like we had in legion(opening argus) in between.

Now with iridkron which is a cool character, we are pretty much waiting for a vague thing that might happen with him, especially when there's a chance that 10.2 might be the last major patch, but with more smaller patches later.

Like you said, we have void expansion and let's say we know what the goal of the big baddies is, but we have to go through hard times and challenges to finally get to the end and defeat this big baddie.

It's simple and we know what is happening, but there are stuff happening in between that excites us and makes us go "whoah did that really happened?", instead of main story stuff mostly being "wait and see", but not in a good way where most stuff ends up being not explained correctly.

One possible idea for a "go through hard times" would be something like a drastic change happens to setting midway through an expansion rather than at the start of it. Something like the Vale of Eternal Blossoms getting destroyed when Garrosh finds the Heart of Ysharraj and dumps it into the Vale's waters. (Minus destroying the daily quest hub stuff as a result...)

[Pheraz]

I think you're raising an important issue, one that sort of gets to the heart of what's problematic with Dragonflight.

Dragons are COOL. In virtually every media, they're always seen as badass, larger than life, and super powerful. But in Dragonflight, they've focused so much on "what would Dragon society look like if we pulled away the curtains a bit?", it just ends up overexposing their culture and what they are.

Too many Visages. Too many Drakonids (everyone looks the same). Too many similar Dragon models. Too many buildings that kinda look like normal people live there. It's like Dragons prefer their Visage life, basically.

This in turn also forces Blizzard to explore a bunch of extra storywriting, like the inner feelings of Dragons, their romantic relationships, their self-doubt, and more. None of that is very appealing in large doses imo.

I remember when Dragons were something the Orcs would send into battle back in the RTS games.

Yep, this humanization is also what puzzles me most about the theme. While the game itself is super enjoyable and alt friendly and the outdoor zones are well executed the main theme "dragons" could have been implemented a bit better. dragons are f*cking huge, massive, ancient creatures that live long and mostly EAT humans as snacks. Also spit fire and live in caves. What we see experience in those omni observer perspective are dialogues between elves with fancy armor talking about their feelings and the past. As players the dragons shift more often from human to dragon form but while I often fled from elite jarradins in zaralek I never thought "oh shit there is a dragon" while moving outdoor. Never.
Just imagine you go into a dark cave to search for some quest giver/objective. You can barely see anything. Suddenly glowing eyes appear and "DRAGONname xyz is about to spit fire" on the screen. Either you gtfo or you are instant dead. Because eventually dragon fire should burn you to death i guess?
Not that cataclysm would have been any better there but just look at this awesome trailer where this massive deathwing kills all goblins while emerging on azeroth (plus this awesome voice acting )

While shadowlands story logic was very questionable with sylv and the jailor at least sylvanas had some danger vibes. Same as the maw. I died quite often, especially with poor geared/leveling alts.

I hope they find a theme for the next xpac where villiains and danger is easier to excecute

[Nymrohd]

Yep, this humanization is also what puzzles me most about the theme. While the game itself is super enjoyable and alt friendly and the outdoor zones are well executed the main theme "dragons" could have been implemented a bit better. dragons are f*cking huge, massive, ancient creatures that live long and mostly EAT humans as snacks. Also spit fire and live in caves.

See, they don't have to live in caves. But they should live somewhere. Valdrakken has all but one indoor space designed for dragons. It seems that WoW dragons are humanoids who can shapeshift into giant lizards instead of the opposite. How many of the buildings in the isles can two dragons fit in when crossing next to each other?

[Nymrohd]

I think there's room for a second domain of Azshara, question is where. She's supposed to return to rule over the land, sky, and sea, so she needs a palace somewhere I bet. Maelstrom 2.0?

Imagine this. You dive into the Maelstrom, see the wound in the crust of the world and find Naga structures all the way to the depths and beyond. You pass through to a massive Naga city in a shallow underground ocean with massive spires rising above the water and the World Soul shining like a sun above you. Naga sea witches manipulate the ocean stretching massive tentacles of water that stretch all the way to the core, encircling it

[Pheraz]

See, they don't have to live in caves. But they should live somewhere. Valdrakken has all but one indoor space designed for dragons. It seems that WoW dragons are humanoids who can shapeshift into giant lizards instead of the opposite. How many of the buildings in the isles can two dragons fit in when crossing next to each other?

Well, Valdrakken is certainly cool and my critique is not a 1/10 critique or rant or anything.
But I guess they exactly wanted us to live beside dragons. "Wouldn't it be cool if players would feel like living beside dragons?"
Well, no this is kinda contradicting the whole mystery of humans vs dragons.
Sigurd vs fafnir
the d0rfs vs smaug
or "Drachenelfen" by bernhard hennen (no idea if this is available in english, though his "the elven" book is, which is fantastic but this is kinda o.t.)
All those portrait this much better. In the latter the dragons are the first creatures created by the "albs" (kinda godlike beings). They are huge, almost imortal, massive, telepathic and can prbly even make karate or judo, you get my point. For "lesser" jobs they have super special elves (dragon elves saga is the prelude to the elf saga where elves rule the world) specifically selected among elves. The elves train themselves for those jobs or sometimes are trained by the dragons with some telepathic tips or sth. But they fear the dragons and sometimes they are just killed because XYZ. The dragons fight against some super demons but this is a gain o.t.
But those are really only some elves like 10-20 per dragon "swarm"/aspect/cave. Most of humans, dwarfs and other elves just gtfo whenever there are dragons in sight.
Somehow dragonflight feels more like jurassic park when you exchange massive lizards with dinosaurs. It is certainly an interpretation for this theme that is not invalid but it is just not my cup of tea and I prefer dragon stories like the one from bernhard hennen

[Nymrohd]

And the thing is, it's not like doing whimsy with dragons is bad. Gorgonzormu is such a funny concept and it works because his market stall of cheeses preserved and aged with Bronze time magic just works. But then most of the city is clearly built for the Dragonkin, not the dragons.
Maybe dragons just don't need housing. What will a little rain do to them anyway?

[Foolicious]

The dude didn't start the idea of an underground expansion. There has been a lot of speculation and "leaks" regarding the idea of going below the ground, for example using the undermine.

It's also pretty much suggested by the current lore if you pay attention.

• The Harbinger wants the world-soul - where is that? In the planet's core.
• Iridikron is her lackey, and what is his element? Earth.
• Thrall is on the poster for BlizzCon, and what is he? World Shaman and (at least former) Earth-warder.
• We've run out of new continents to visit on Azeroth, and supposedly traveling with the pirates to the other side of the world isn't happening in this expansion.
• The story suggest a major Void showdown is coming up next, and the Harbinger is gathering powerful essences for something. What for? Resurrect some ancient monstrosity perhaps?
• The earthen of Khaz Algar is one of the major hints for future lore, and the Titan facility Uldaz sounds pretty dwafish. This fits with the book 'A Song of the Depths', where it is mentioned that the Harbinger has gathered the Children of the First Flesh, that are now toiling below. Why would this even be mentioned in a Dragonflight prophecy involving the current story, unless it had something to do with her plans?

There are also a lot of hints that either ancient kalimdor was basically build on top of a pre existing continent or that the most primal continent sunk into the sea when the titans ordered the world.
Xal'atath mentions "the scouring" and compares it to the cataclysm and the sundering. The forbidden reach lore book speaks of the sea giants creating kalimdor as either propaganda or unawareness of what lies beneath the waves. The author also talks about how the titans took away the real name of the land which they called kalimdor. The tomb of sargeras is build on top of something and its deepest chamber is very very deep in the earth.
Then we get told "The Legion burrows deep here. If they burrow deeper, they may not like what they find." by knaifu.

It could even be that this is avaloren and the assumption that it is simply a not yet found landmass on the back of azeroth is completely wrong.

[Grazrug]

TBH I liked Oribos more then Valdrakken. I got lost in the dragon city multiple times.

[Teriz]

He also posted this right before.



https://twitter.com/towelthetank/sta...03278878789953

If not Undermine, maybe a "Delves" feature for WoW? Randomly generated caves?

That's interesting, because this popped up a few days ago for Warcraft Rumble;



Mecha Kobolds, which I thought was rather strange, but its not so strange if we're talking about Kobolds in Undermine.

[Santandame]

BFA was the South Seas expansion - we're not getting that

Really wish people would stop spreading this nonsense.

[Teriz]

I'd have to agree, despite being joke races, goblins and gnomes have something that most of the other races have lost to time.... PERSONALITY.

If they can make a "joke race" like Pandarens and expand their lore to where they aren't much of a joke anymore, why not the same for Goblins? (Gnomes already have some pretty depressing lore... literally 70% of their population in Gnomergan was decimated due to troggs and radiation and the ones that survived turned into Leper Gnomes driven to madness. Granted I don't like mechagnomes as an Allied Race (you can just slap those mechanical limbs on a regular gnome and you wouldn't miss anything)...but the concept of a Mechagnome is actually cool and probably only time WoW ever actually dives into the concept of transhumanism.)

Because some posters on WoW forum get triggered when you bring up anything dealing with Gnomes and Goblins.

The reality is that Undermine is one of the major locations of Warcraft. It really should be in the game as a place for players to visit, because there's really no place like it in the WC franchise. People are really being shortsighted when it comes to the potential this expansion could have. With Goblins and technology attached to the theme, you could really go pretty wild with the zone diversity. The WoW RPG describes it as follows;

Undermine is the nefarious capital of the goblin's trade empire, the Trade Coalition. Located beneath and within Kezan, Undermine is the center of goblin civilization. It is connected to the island via a series of volcanic tunnels which were created by Mount Kajaro's volcanic and tectonic activities.[10][11][12]

The trade princes each control their own private armies and trade fleets. As a result, Undermine is a busy place, as the goblin city goes about its business.

There are some Horde and Alliance ambassadors present in the Undermine.[13]

The main centers of population in Undermine are in volcanic caverns beneath Kezan. Secondary island caverns exist farther away, and the goblins have constructed tunnels of thick glass that lead to these smaller areas. Passing through these tubes means walking along the ocean's floor and looking out to see the colorful fish and hungry sharks nearby.[12] Bilgewater Port is linked directly to Undermine.[11]

As the capital of goblin culture, Undermine teems with chaotic activity. Goblin alchemists and tinkers practice their crafts and set off explosions. Slave markets bustle in out-of-the-way places. Shops and businesses of all kinds are based here, and the headquarters of the Trade Coalition, the Venture Company and myriad other enterprises are within this city. In Undermine, you can find the extremes on both ends: reeking slave pens in one area, the trade princes' lavish palaces in another. Zovzik's shop is located in the city.

Of particular interest is the fact that, wandering around Undermine, is a strange breed of a creature called hobgoblins. They resemble goblins, but are much taller and have purple skin.[14]

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Undermine

Interestingly, an article came out 12 years ago that talked about future WoW expansion locations; Undermine, Pandaria, and Broken Isles. Undermine remains the only location on that list that we haven't visited yet.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/2011-...-pandaria.html

[huth]

Two (young?) people - looks more like the untitled survival game than Warcraft.

Looks like somebody shopped a random black silhouette into it to me, to be honest.

[Santandame]

Alright, I'll bite. What makes people think an underground expansion is likely?
Is it the part where the human fights a Kobold in Elwynn? Because that seems like an extremely tenous link.
Would a murloc be a hint at Ankoan being the main ally in an underwater expansion? A picture of booty bay a hint at Nightsquall creating a pirate empire in Pandaria?

Not that I put any stock in Towelie whatsoever, but I find the human/kobold picture more indicative of a revamp than underground.

[Teriz]

Not that I put any stock in Towelie whatsoever, but I find the human/kobold picture more indicative of a revamp than underground.

We could potentially get both. We got new zones alongside the cataclysm revamp.

[Santandame]

Not at all but honestly that goes for all concepts. Imo they did not pull off Dragon Isles either.

I still believe that the Dragon Isles should have been in the sky.

Also think we should have gotten zones more distinctly themed around the Aspects.

- Autumnal forest similar to Eversong, Ruby Sanctum, Vermillion Redoubt for Red.
- Fantastical, mystical desert for Bronze with some smaller pocket dimensions bleeding out from various time ways.
- Lush jungle for the Green.
- Winter wonderland for the Blues with some of the Nexus architecture scattered throughout.
- Mountainous region for the Black.

I know that would have been very “theme park” and not to some peoples taste but I feel like that’s what most of us envisioned the Dragon Isles to be.

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We could potentially get both. We got new zones alongside the cataclysm revamp.

I would prefer an underground expansion on its own, as well as South Seas. But I also would be happy with getting a revamp with the lines of Undermine, Tel’Abim, Plunder Isle, Khaz Algar and the Spider Kingdom as endgame zones.

[Nymrohd]

I still believe that the Dragon Isles should have been in the sky.

Also think we should have gotten zones more distinctly themed around the Aspects.

- Autumnal forest similar to Eversong, Ruby Sanctum, Vermillion Redoubt for Red.
- Fantastical, mystical desert for Bronze with some smaller pocket dimensions bleeding out from various time ways.
- Lush jungle for the Green.
- Winter wonderland for the Blues with some of the Nexus architecture scattered throughout.
- Mountainous region for the Black.

I know that would have been very “theme park” and not to some peoples taste but I feel like that’s what most of us envisioned the Dragon Isles to be.

My idea was that on the other side of the planet, there would be a huge thin titan tower rising from the sea (Uldorus) which lead to the World Soul (like Antorus did) and surrounding it would be 5 islands; one on the ground and four floating. These would be the Dragon Isles, the charge of the Dragonflights protecting Azeroth and they'd be invaded by N'zoth with separate forces against each isle (Qiraji, Nerubian, Mantid, N'zoth's own aquatic Aqir and then the Twilight Dragonflight). And ofc Odyn would have moved the Halls of Valor there now that they are unchained because he doesn't trust the flights to do their job. I'd have wanted this right after BfA.

[Teriz]

I would prefer an underground expansion on its own, as well as South Seas. But I also would be happy with getting a revamp with the lines of Undermine, Tel’Abim, Plunder Isle, Khaz Algar and the Spider Kingdom as endgame zones.

That's a bit much. Undermine in of itself would constitute a continent with multiple zones. Tel'Abim, Gadgetzhan, Plunder Isle, and some made up islands could offer up more zones. I don't see a scenario where you would go from Northrend all the way down to the South Seas and then into the Eastern Kingdoms entirely under the surface.

Potentially what we're looking at is Undermine being the starting hub and from there we go deeper into the planet. Possibly to a titan facility that could house the world soul or even be a prison for an old god that directly threatens the world soul. Blizzard could also bring in "The War" into the expansion giving us a mechanical threat from beneath the planet that potentially threatens Undermine and the titan facility. Not to mention whatever crazy shenanigans that Gallywix could be up to at this point.

In short, Undermine supplies us with more than enough material for an expansion on its own.

[Skildar]

My idea was that on the other side of the planet, there would be a huge thin titan tower rising from the sea (Uldorus) which lead to the World Soul (like Antorus did) and surrounding it would be 5 islands; one on the ground and four floating. These would be the Dragon Isles, the charge of the Dragonflights protecting Azeroth and they'd be invaded by N'zoth with separate forces against each isle (Qiraji, Nerubian, Mantid, N'zoth's own aquatic Aqir and then the Twilight Dragonflight). And ofc Odyn would have moved the Halls of Valor there now that they are unchained because he doesn't trust the flights to do their job. I'd have wanted this right after BfA.

Having BfA end with eternal palace and move on with an expansion where N'zoth attacks would have been the right path. Not that I didn't like 8.3 or shadowlands but nzoth didn't live up to its build up because of this. Let's hope they don't make the same mistake with Xal'atath.