The War Within 11.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Sondrelk]

I have great moments with artifact weapons - Fishing for corrupted ashbringer with people for hours and fighting with the other faction at the spot, farming hidden thunderfury appearance for rogues with 4 other rogues on daily basis, figuring out how to sneak through faster and faster to kill the bosses.

Amongst many other things, artifacts having objectives to unlock more appearances or tints were really a cool, long term content, especially for more casual players.

Mage tower and artifact weapons - trying to get better and training to finally beat the boss for that sweet mog for your main classes and other classes/specs you never really played is also one of this very memorable things.


Hardcore players will have other opinion, but it's always the case since those are the people that play hardcore 18 hours a day, especially when new expansion launches and they will just skip everything to the grinding part.

I think my view on Artifacts is that most of the bits players enjoyed are bits that could be achieved just as well if not better in other ways.

Corrupted Ashbringer didn't have to be an Artifact Questline, it could have been a Paladin specific secret and worked just as well for instance.

[Santandame]

Put me in the camp or bring back artifact weapons. One of my favourite features added, ever. We should have never have lost them with BfA.

[ImTheMizAwesome]

I think my view on Artifacts is that most of the bits players enjoyed are bits that could be achieved just as well if not better in other ways.

Corrupted Ashbringer didn't have to be an Artifact Questline, it could have been a Paladin specific secret and worked just as well for instance.

I mean corrupted ashbringer appearance in Legion was a paladin hall secret, hidden appearance for paladins, that secret finder discord found how to achieve.

Instead of it being just being some % low random drop, it became a social thing and probably created many memorable moments when farming this specific appearance.

The same goes for other hidden appearances that were tied to secrets, i think they did it the right way.

Majority of players seems to be enjoyed how stuff like that was done, so there doesn't have to be better way, it was good enough to have players entertained and memorable for them.

EDIT: i remember that already answered to you before, when you said that Legion had nothing besides class halls and i listed all things that legion had as content, i think that overall you' just really don't like Legion, but also don't want to admit that you just don't like it, without saying that something was not done correctly, when it actually was and people enjoyed it.

[Pyrophax]

Or an alternative reading:

Azshara so weak and pathetic as she has to be rescued by the adventurers she hates.

N'zoth big and cool, whispering into our minds as we follow his plans to the letter. Big cool voice and looming over us.


Both are hammy villains. One is just not obviously dead yet.

Never saw anyone that praised N'Zoth. But Azshara and her cheeks (yes, they are that good. I agree) was all over the wow forums. But its nothing to do with matriarchy of some races.
But alas, we are here not to discuss left-wing propaganda and gender roles, yes?
All I ask is equality of representation that recently was heavily shifted to male bad and non-impotant and female is good and impotant scheme. We need hairy and strong masculine man, we need strong woman, we need feminine woman and we need less masculine man also. But not like novadays when we have depressed Nozdormu, absolute non-masculine Kalec, hippi-cow Ebyssian and Malfurion with some NTR issues.
We need Thrall from WC3, we need Cairne, Varian from WotLK, Grommash from alternative Draenor. Strong, reliable man. And we need Mia Greymane that relies at Genn, but have her own role in this. Or Mankrik and Mahka.
As for lgbtq+ (or how they prefer call themselfs) - I think that devs will put them anyways so I am not talking about that.

[Nymrohd]

Put me in the camp or bring back artifact weapons. One of my favourite features added, ever. We should have never have lost them with BfA.

My only issue with artifact weapons and class halls was that they were so uneven. You had the Ashbringer and the Scepter of Sargeras at the same space as Titanstrike. You had class hall questlines like the DK and Rogue one alongside the Monk mess.

[Sondrelk]

I mean corrupted ashbringer appearance in Legion was a paladin hall secret, hidden appearance for paladins, that secret finder discord found how to achieve.

Instead of it being just being some % low random drop, it became a social thing and probably created many memorable moments when farming this specific appearance.

The same goes for other hidden appearances that were tied to secrets, i think they did it the right way.

Majority of players seems to be enjoyed how stuff like that was done, so there doesn't have to be better way, it was good enough to have players entertained and memorable for them.

EDIT: i remember that already answered to you before, when you said that Legion had nothing besides class halls and i listed all things that legion had as content, i think that overall you' just really don't like Legion, but also don't want to admit that you just don't like it, without saying that something was not done corretly, when it actually was and people enjoyed it.

Not all hidden artifacts were that interesting. The MM and BM ones were just bought from a vendor for instance.

Regardless my point about corrupted Ashbringer still stands. The artifact part of the secret was hardly crucial to it. As I said, it would have worked just as well if it was a secret that paladins could find now in Dragonflight, entirely removed from Legion.


And no, I did enjoy Legion massively. I just think people have a tendency to massively overrate how good it was in hindsight. I loved the shit out of Suramar, but I do vividly remember how much people hated it and it's time gating.
I remember being fine with AP grinds even as the forums complained about having to farm dungeons.
I remember enjoying staying in the Trueshot lodge, even as I also remember thinking the Hunter questline was boring.

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Never saw anyone that praised N'Zoth. But Azshara and her cheeks (yes, they are that good. I agree) was all over the wow forums. But its nothing to do with matriarchy of some races.
But alas, we are here not to discuss left-wing propaganda and gender roles, yes?

Is player popularity actually leftist propaganda now?
Is it not simply possible that Azshara is popular because she is a cool character, and N'zoth not so much because he was in a boring final patch of a hated expansion?

Is your viewpoint here that Blizzard made 8.2 good, and 8.3 boring to take a stand for feminism? It sure sounds like it.

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My only issue with artifact weapons and class halls was that they were so uneven. You had the Ashbringer and the Scepter of Sargeras at the same space as Titanstrike. You had class hall questlines like the DK and Rogue one alongside the Monk mess.

Yeah, this is basically my view on it. Some classes had it great in Legion, some did not.
Death Knights got to gather pieces of Frostmourne and ressurrect a new Four Horsemen to attack Lights Hope Chapel.
Monks got to pick up some fist weapons in Uldum and find the best beer in the Isles.

Iconic class weapons are good and all. But for one not every class have those. And secondly you could just as easily just give these to players some other way, like what we are getting with the Trading Post weapons.

[ImTheMizAwesome]

Not all hidden artifacts were that interesting. The MM and BM ones were just bought from a vendor for instance.

Regardless my point about corrupted Ashbringer still stands. The artifact part of the secret was hardly crucial to it. As I said, it would have worked just as well if it was a secret that paladins could find now in Dragonflight, entirely removed from Legion.

I disagree with your point completely and i think you're wrong because it couldn't work in Dragonflight, since artifact weapons and class halls were a crucial point of Legion and that's why it was tied to that, like some other systems are tied to specific expansion - Theme.

You had a hidden artifact appearance that was tied to a secret for people to find, not only it being a callback to the past of OG corrupted ashbringer, but was tied to the artifact weapons system that was developed through the expansion.

I honestly find it very weird that you're trying to push that "point" when it makes no sense whatsoever, because you can say that about any type of content that we had across many expansions, "it could have worked just as well", expansions go with specific themes that bring activities based on that, i just find your pov on that very weird and seems like some dead end argument.

And ye, about artifacts not every weapon had hidden secret attached to it, but i spoke about those that were really memorable to me and many players at that time that i had conversations in game with while doing this content.

Legion wasn't perfect just as any other expansion that wow had, but it clearly had much more direct content for more casual players to do through the whole expansion that made their experience much more "personal" and fun.
It also brought WoW back to life after WoD and added many features that are now a staple of wow, world quests and m+ amongst other things.


About suramar i didn't like it much because without flying it was just a painful experience going through quests there, after flying it was alright when it comes to gameplay, story was fun but doing that story and going through quests was often annoying, because of the design.

[Nymrohd]

Not all hidden artifacts were that interesting. The MM and BM ones were just bought from a vendor for instance.

Regardless my point about corrupted Ashbringer still stands. The artifact part of the secret was hardly crucial to it. As I said, it would have worked just as well if it was a secret that paladins could find now in Dragonflight, entirely removed from Legion.


And no, I did enjoy Legion massively. I just think people have a tendency to massively overrate how good it was in hindsight. I loved the shit out of Suramar, but I do vividly remember how much people hated it and it's time gating.
I remember being fine with AP grinds even as the forums complained about having to farm dungeons.
I remember enjoying staying in the Trueshlt lodge, even as I also remember thinking the Hunter questline was boring.

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Is player popularity actually leftist propaganda now?
Is it not simply possible that Azshara is popular because she is a cool character, and N'zoth not so much because he was in a boring final patch of a hated expansion?

Is your viewpoint here that Blizzard made 8.2 good, and 8.3 boring to take a stand for feminism? It sure sounds like it.

AP grinds were only a problem for tryhards. Legendaries absolutely were an issue though. Some specs just had a massive delta in performance if they got their BiS legendary.

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Iconic class weapons are good and all. But for one not every class have those. And secondly you could just as easily just give these to players some other way, like what we are getting with the Trading Post weapons.

I mean a lot of weapons that were completely new were still iconic because of their backstories and designs. Off the top of my head, Ulthaless, Aldrachi Warblades, Maw of the Damned, G'hanir, Sheilun, T'uure, Fists of Ra'den and ofc all the intelligent ones (Xal, Aluneth, Skull) were all amazing artifacts that never existed before. They just flopped with some of them and made some weird choices with some specs as well as not spreading the love to more Azerothian and Draenor civilizations (why no Gorehowl? why not have something made by ogres or arakkoa?)

[Woggmer]

I think AP grind is just one of those things that will be divisive forever. One side will always enjoy having all kinds of content be worthwhile all expansion. Another will complain because they have to farm Iskaaran Stew forever to stay competitive.

There is also the question of what kind of power it should give. Artifacts were effectively another layer of passive and active abilities that you couldn't do without. While the HoA were linked to Azerite Armor.

Personally I didn't mind the AP grind, but I did mind the extraneous power. Azerite Armor specifically never grabbed me, and always felt like a boring system layered on top.

...Simple, just don't have the AP grind tethered to the weapon's damage and ilvl level like it and just have the AP only unlock talent traits like what Artifact Weapons had.

[Sondrelk]

...Simple, just don't have the AP grind tethered to the weapon's damage and ilvl level like it and just have the AP only unlock talent traits like what Artifact Weapons had.

At some point you will have to wonder what the point of it being a weapon at all is though. Why not then just have an AP grind not tied to any piece of gear, and then separately give all classes a cool weapon transmog?

Or for that matter, why not just have cool themed weapons from the expansion and get way more of them?

[Santandame]

As @Nymrohd has said though AP was only an issue for try hards, no one else. If you felt you had to run Maw of Souls repeatedly to stay ahead, then that issue lies with you.

[ImTheMizAwesome]

I mean a lot of weapons that were completely new were still iconic because of their backstories and designs. Off the top of my head, Ulthaless, Aldrachi Warblades, Maw of the Damned, G'hanir, Sheilun, T'uure, Fists of Ra'den and ofc all the intelligent ones (Xal, Aluneth, Skull) were all amazing artifacts that never existed before. They just flopped with some of them and made some weird choices with some specs as well as not spreading the love to more Azerothian and Draenor civilizations (why no Gorehowl? why not have something made by ogres or arakkoa?)

I still think that warriors should have at least one base artifact being an axe.

Also DK's should have normal Frostmourne crafted, since we pretty much crafted it but made it into two 1h swords.
Paladins got Ashbringer i think it would be fine if DK got FM, but sadly 2h frost was pretty much deleted in Legion.

[Santandame]

I still think that warriors should have at least one base artifact being an axe.

Also DK's should have normal Frostmourne crafted, since we pretty much crafted it but made it into two 1h swords.
Paladins got Ashbringer i think it would be fine if DK got FM, but sadly 2h frost was pretty much deleted in Legion.

Yeah warriors should have gotten either Gorehowl or the Axe of Cenarius.

An Arakkoa priest themed weapon is a cool idea.

[Pyrophax]

I still think that warriors should have at least one base artifact being an axe.

Also DK's should have normal Frostmourne crafted, since we pretty much crafted it but made it into two 1h swords.
Paladins got Ashbringer i think it would be fine if DK got FM, but sadly 2h frost was pretty much deleted in Legion.

Axe of Cenarius.
Change shadow-aligned spells with nature one. And not ass-pull shadow sword of some king no one care about. And skin to Gorehowl ofc.

[Nymrohd]

I still think that warriors should have at least one base artifact being an axe.

Also DK's should have normal Frostmourne crafted, since we pretty much crafted it but made it into two 1h swords.
Paladins got Ashbringer i think it would be fine if DK got FM, but sadly 2h frost was pretty much deleted in Legion.

Imo the simple solution would be instead of the Hidden appearance being just another version of the artifact with 4 colors, have it be 4 different artifacts that are potentially different weapons types that you can discover. For Blades of the Prince you could have had a couple of the Hidden appearances being 2H (add Frostmourne as an option). I honestly want the 2h versions for Frost, Enchancement and even Windwalker to be available. And DW Survival, I fooled around with melee hunter back in Classic and TBC and loved DW Dawn's Edge.

[ImTheMizAwesome]

Yeah like you guys said gorehowl or axe of cenarius, i think both would work great and it just makes me think about so many different appearances that they would have.. Damn.

Like if they had axe of cenarius, they could add gorehowl from WoD already in legion as hidden apperance or have gorehowl as artifact and axe of cenarius as hidden apperance, i still wonder what the designer thinking was back then, since overall Axes as weapon type are really iconic to Warriors.

[Sondrelk]

Yeah warriors should have gotten either Gorehowl or the Axe of Cenarius.

An Arakkoa priest themed weapon is a cool idea.

This is actually one of the reasons I never liked Artifact Weapons all that much.
Sure Gorehowl is definitely a warrior weapon, but why not make it transmoggable if you play a Mag'har DK, or Survival Hunter?

Unless of course you remove all transmog restrictions and make the limiting factor what class you have to farm the appearance on.

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Yeah like you guys said gorehowl or axe of cenarius, i think both would work great and it just makes me think about so many different appearances that they would have.. Damn.

Like if they had axe of cenarius, they could add gorehowl from WoD already in legion as hidden apperance or have gorehowl as artifact and axe of cenarius as hidden apperance, i still wonder what the designer thinking was back then, since overall Axes as weapon type are really iconic to Warriors.

Axe of Cenarius was specifically stated be have been considered for Arms warriors, but got scrapped for being too druidic.
Gorehowl I imagine was scrapped for already having been made, and probably still a bit up in the ether concerning whether it would be available in WoD or not. It was supposed to be a legendary after all.

[ImTheMizAwesome]

Axe of Cenarius was specifically stated be have been considered for Arms warriors, but got scrapped for being too druidic.
Gorehowl I imagine was scrapped for already having been made, and probably still a bit up in the ether concerning whether it would be available in WoD or not. It was supposed to be a legendary after all.

Yeah, i mean just from the logical perspective, you have decisions making designer there making warrior artifact appearance and you go with - Sword and shield, 2h sword and 2x2h swords for fury, i think it was someone that just liked sword too much or never played warriors in that case.

Most of the legion i was wearing old gorehowl or Edge of agony from wotlk on warrior.

[Yunravel]

Never saw anyone that praised N'Zoth. But Azshara and her cheeks (yes, they are that good. I agree) was all over the wow forums. But its nothing to do with matriarchy of some races.
But alas, we are here not to discuss left-wing propaganda and gender roles, yes?
All I ask is equality of representation that recently was heavily shifted to male bad and non-impotant and female is good and impotant scheme. We need hairy and strong masculine man, we need strong woman, we need feminine woman and we need less masculine man also. But not like novadays when we have depressed Nozdormu, absolute non-masculine Kalec, hippi-cow Ebyssian and Malfurion with some NTR issues.
We need Thrall from WC3, we need Cairne, Varian from WotLK, Grommash from alternative Draenor. Strong, reliable man. And we need Mia Greymane that relies at Genn, but have her own role in this. Or Mankrik and Mahka.
As for lgbtq+ (or how they prefer call themselfs) - I think that devs will put them anyways so I am not talking about that.

really can't agree more than that. Also they just need to frking write the story for the sake of it, for the pleasure to do it, to tell a good story. It doesn't have to feel pushed down to our throat. I'm Lgb(t)q+ myself and really can't stand the way we are depicted as some kind of token. So far, only Chromie was somewhat done really well, I liked the fact it's been a thing since vanilla, got explained with common sense through visage day story and all.

You want to write a character and she's a strong badass woman, go for it ! One character ends up being trans, or gay ? Go for it ! But right now, it just feels WRONG and weird, there's so many games that handles it better.

And when I was refering to Azshara / nzoth, it was more akin to like Zovaal/Sylvanas, the big baddie is a guy, and get no screen times, no justifications, he's just an ugly bastard anyway.

the woman character get 10 cutscenes, explanations and may be even, redemption.

lmao.

[Lady Atia]

At some point you will have to wonder what the point of it being a weapon at all is though. Why not then just have an AP grind not tied to any piece of gear, and then separately give all classes a cool weapon transmog?

Or for that matter, why not just have cool themed weapons from the expansion and get way more of them?

They tried that in BfA but forgot to still give us the cool themed weapons / any other artifact cosmetics there. So in the end of the day, the HoA was just not memorable at all since the gameplay pretty much got thrown away as soon as we entered the Shadowlands, with 0 cosmetics to keep like we had with the artifact weapons.

Than they tried to give us cool cosmetics in Shadowlands but actually forgot to write any lore ties that made the Legion artifacts great. I couldn't care less about random bastion sword that I get for finishing my campaign if it has no lore relevance. On the other hand, Remornia got turned into a pet ...

Atleast they gave us Sylvanas' bow and the Jailer's hammer I guess.