1. #19701
    Herald of the Titans Worldshaper's Avatar
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    The four zones of the Dragon Isles kind of represent the elements, at least subtly.

    • The Waking Shores represents fire.
    • The Ohn'ahran Plains represents wind.
    • The Azure Span represents water.
    • Thaldraszus represents earth.

    So do the Primal Incarnates.

    • Fyrakk represents fire.
    • Razegeth represents wind.
    • Vyranoth represents water.
    • Iridikron represents earth.

    Anyway...

    What are the things that are missing from Dragonflight, that were in Cataclysm?

    > World revamp

    > Thrall

    > Queen Azshara

    > Twilight dragons

    > More direct encounters with the Void and/or the Old Gods' minions

  2. #19702
    Quote Originally Posted by Woggmer View Post
    Try and compare what they had for Cata back then to the team they have now. They gobbled up a game dev studio last year when they were working on DF.. so to say they don't have resources isn't true anymore.

    The only reason the Cata revamp took a lot resources of them wasn't just them writing new stories.. if anything the real pain they went through was having to deconstruct and reconstruct EVERYTHING from scratch.. not because they wanted to revamp the world, but because they wanted to compensate for FLYING BEING ADDED IN. When you do fly in all those old zones, you'll find a lot of missing textures and assets to some of the buildings making them look like an eyesore from a bird's eye view. This is why Eversong Forest, Ghostlands, Azuremyst and Bloodmyst Isles don't allow flying, and also why you can't fly over Stratholme.

    Plus... It's been about 12 years since the Cataclysm, both in-game and IRL, a lot of characters a growing older, quite a few notable ones are already dead or not leaders of their factions anymore, and even kids that we knew in TBC are becoming adults like that one Children's Week blood elf we looked after is now a paladin protege under Lady Liadrin. And to add to that.. new plot points are keep getting added in since BFA which keeps pointing more and more to the possibility of a revamp.



    Now that is unrealistic. They don't update zones without a reason, in BFA they updated those zones because they were key Warfront battles. They had ideas for different prototype Warfronts but they rejected all those ideas. It's easier to do it all the updates in one go rather than one at a time for no reason or for something as minor as one questline like the Heritage Armor quests.
    A revamp of the old zones is improbable, but not impossible. Even Ion said that they learned a lot since the Cata revamp, which suggests he wants to do something similar but not the same as what they did with Cata's revamp.
    Yes, and how did that go with Cata? Did you play the game during Cata? Cause let me tell you, the content draught was gigantic. There was nothing to do.
    You think one studio is enough to quintuple the work load? It's incredibly unrealistic.

    So, yes, world revamp would mean new stories and changes to the zones, so it would still be a humongous amount of work. Add voice acting and cinematics too for let's say it together: 50 zones!
    It's just not possible peeps. They can't do that in one go.


    Honestly, the old zones are fine and ya'll exaggerate. Did the Kalimdor cup event. Old zones are still great.

  3. #19703
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Megazones though
    You don't have 50 zones you have way less. To get Vanilla zones to the current zone size, you'd need to combine anywhere from 2 to 4 zones depending on the zone (cause let's face it, some of them are small and/or empty)
    Oh hey, look at that, we came to the same conclusion. Though I do wanna add that because of flying (and pretty soon dragonriding/active flying) added in.. it'll make travel trivial so even more of a reason to combine zones into larger ones.

  4. #19704
    Epic! Pheraz's Avatar
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    Would be interesting to see how often towlie was making stuff up or was selling his ideas as leaks
    I still don't buy an underground expansion
    Those new tech for zaralek where the area is loaded while you are in that tunnel could be reused though I guess
    Maybe they'll do a partly revamp and little holes to that new area here and there
    Zorn | Vynd | Pheraz | Sylwina | Mondlicht | Eis | Blut | Emerelle - Plus 20 more...

  5. #19705
    Quote Originally Posted by ChairmanKaga View Post
    "All zones are all the same size and level of complexity" is a hell of a take.
    They aren't, but are you making the case that it is anywhere near the same amount as say 2 expansions? Cause it's more than that.
    But, each zone would need a revamp, so i am happy with the take if i'm honest. You want to selectively leave the small zones behind? Ok. You still got 45 zones (being generous here, cause there are zones that are bigger as well). Great help!
    So, yeah... i could say your take is irrelevant in this case. The point stands.

    Also, HD assets take longer to make and the expected content quality is higher than before.

    Even if one wants updates, these do not need to come in the form of a full world revamp expansion. All you need is some updates in cities and some select zones. Stuff that can be done in patches when the story calls for it.
    There is also the other point made. Do we truly need 50 zones for leveling? It's silly, right? It's not a serious expectation.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2023-09-26 at 06:42 AM.

  6. #19706
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Megazones though
    You don't have 50 zones you have way less. To get Vanilla zones to the current zone size, you'd need to combine anywhere from 2 to 4 zones depending on the zone (cause let's face it, some of them are small and/or empty)

    Quote Originally Posted by Woggmer View Post
    Focus on one of the continents, if they say they'll do the other continent in another expansion, then they'll do it with new themes an ideas to work with. Which can leave either 20-25 zones between both sides.
    Still too many zones? Combine them into larger zones with a continuing story. In Classic, there was the whole idea of the Defias Brotherhood expanding across both Elwynn Forest and continued their influence all the way out to Westfall.

    Why not combine Elwynn, Westfall, Redridge, and Duskwood into one larger area with a whole story? All revolving around the gnoll encampents increasing in activity, only to discover that these new gnoll camps are starting to learn how to use Decay magic, similar to the ones from DF. All of it culminates in a big showdown in Duskwood where the Decay Gnolls are trying to tap into the Dream through the portal in the middle of the zone. (That's just one example)

    Same can apply to the Northern Eastern Kingdoms, where the East and West Plaguelands along with Tirisfal have been combined into a single zone with the story centered around the Scarlet Crusade expanding their sphere of influence on the land and push the Forsaken out of Lordaeron.

    Especially when flying enters in the mix, and especially if when Dragonriding becomes a main-stay, they'll need to make those zones larger to compensate the distance of flying between them.
    I think having a good balance between the pre-Expert Riding experience when we're stuck in the ground should be accounted for, but yeah, combining areas into larger superegions could really help with the issue. My only problem with that solution is that it could make the super-regions come across as too samey, with the world losing some of its flavor, as some old zones are pretty tight narratively, and by welding it to others you either have to keep them secluded, or weld the narratives into a larger arc.

    But yeah, I do think it could work very well (maybe keeping the starting areas up to 30, before we learn flight, as more self contained, or just welded into each other, like say, Elwynn + Westfall, Durotar + Barrens, etc)

  7. #19707
    Quote Originally Posted by Woggmer View Post
    Oh hey, look at that, we came to the same conclusion. Though I do wanna add that because of flying (and pretty soon dragonriding/active flying) added in.. it'll make travel trivial so even more of a reason to combine zones into larger ones.
    We've been talking about the Megazone concept here for like 400 pages

  8. #19708
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    I think having a good balance between the pre-Expert Riding experience when we're stuck in the ground should be accounted for, but yeah, combining areas into larger superegions could really help with the issue. My only problem with that solution is that it could make the super-regions come across as too samey, with the world losing some of its flavor, as some old zones are pretty tight narratively, and by welding it to others you either have to keep them secluded, or weld the narratives into a larger arc.

    But yeah, I do think it could work very well (maybe keeping the starting areas up to 30, before we learn flight, as more self contained, or just welded into each other, like say, Elwynn + Westfall, Durotar + Barrens, etc)
    Yeah, i Think merging zones would be the way forward. With scaling etc, level ranges are basically obsolete, so you can focus on storylines. F.e. Merge Tirisfal, Northern Silverpine and Western and Eastern Plaguelands and tell a story about new Lordaeron and the continued cleasing of the Plaguelands.

  9. #19709
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Underground expansion. Not sea-based and no world revamp.
    If toweliee is correct then Blizz should prepare to lose a hell of alot of subscribers as from what I've seen/heard most people hate the idea of Underground even the Hearthstone expansion featuring that subject did not do too well, I know I certainly won't play it and my Guild would probably take a break that expansion.
    '''

  10. #19710
    Quote Originally Posted by Zebir95 View Post
    you just need to check other wow related platforms to see that lmao. I don't play classic, but denying its success would be dumb. when people talk about wow these days they're either shitting on retail or they're talking about classic.
    lol, classic had to be re-released in different forms multiple times to keep it somehow alive...
    for release of old game it was surely success, but it wasnt the "wowkiller" (or retailkiller) some people thought it will be

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zebir95 View Post
    m+ numbers are way down
    lol, no...
    in raider.io database DF S2 have more characters that run m+ than any S2 and almost any season in history of m+...
    (i know lame source, but still milion times better than "someone on YT said so, so it must be true!")

  11. #19711
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    Yes, and how did that go with Cata? Did you play the game during Cata? Cause let me tell you, the content draught was gigantic. There was nothing to do.
    You think one studio is enough to quintuple the work load? It's incredibly unrealistic.

    So, yes, world revamp would mean new stories and changes to the zones, so it would still be a humongous amount of work. Add voice acting and cinematics too for let's say it together: 50 zones!
    It's just not possible peeps. They can't do that in one go.


    Honestly, the old zones are fine and ya'll exaggerate. Did the Kalimdor cup event. Old zones are still great.
    Cata did also have 6 completely new zones alongside Hyjal though, so effectively the same amount of work to create new zones alongside the world revamp.
    A new world revamp doesn't have to make the same mistake. Just focus on the actual revamped zones and don't make new zones at all.

    Also, you say 50 zones, but most of those are much smaller than modern zones, and it's not like modern zones have voice acting for every single quest anyways.
    If we assume the old idea I had for merged zones (narratively, not necessarily mechanically), then you could have stuff where for instance Westfall and Duskwood are the only zones with main campaign questlines and voice acting, and Redridge mountains are just for side quests, and therefore without voice acting.

    Beyond that you probably have to consider zones that maybe won't be updated, or really touched on at all. Vashj'ir is unlikely to get updates, or any new content at all from that matter. Deepholm is almost certainly being ignored completely. Uldum doesn't necessarily need any updates at all to look decent.
    Last edited by Sondrelk; 2023-09-26 at 07:27 AM.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  12. #19712
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    in raider.io database DF S2 have more characters that run m+ than any S2 and almost any season in history of m+...
    (i know lame source, but still milion times better than "someone on YT said so, so it must be true!")


    Hey where do you get those numbers? When I open raider.io, Mythic+ DF S2 all I see is "sample size: 2,363,943. Which seems a lot lower than SL S2 that had: 4,031,592 runs. Season 2 obviously isn't over yet but it seems to be that is way lower than Shadowlands? Am I miss understanding this somehow?

  13. #19713
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Not really, why would they do it a second time instead of one of the other raids? Also this leak is too dumb to tell the difference between Skyreach (the High Arakkoa city) and Skywall (the elemental plane).
    Yall kill my hype every time
    Though tbh it is from a "best leak" thread

  14. #19714
    The Lightbringer Izalla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Cata did also have 6 completely new zones alongside Hyjal though, so effectively the same amount of work to create new zones alongside the world revamp.
    A new world revamp doesn't have to make the same mistake. Just focus on the actual revamped zones and don't make new zones at all.

    Also, you say 50 zones, but most of those are much smaller than modern zones, and it's not like modern zones have voice acting for every single quest anyways.
    If we assume the old idea I had for merged zones (narratively, not necessarily mechanically), then you could have stuff where for instance Westfall and Duskwood are the only zones with main campaign questlines and voice acting, and Redridge mountains are just for side quests, and therefore without voice acting.

    Beyond that you probably have to consider zones that maybe won't be updated, or really touched on at all. Vashj'ir is unlikely to get updates, or any new content at all from that matter. Deepholm is almost certainly being ignored completely. Uldum doesn't necessarily need any updates at all to look decent.
    Not only are they smaller geographically, but the amount of quests in those old zones compared to new zones is just... there's no comparison. Some zones are like, 30 quests long even including all side quests. Even by TBC and Wrath the zones had at least 50-100 quests (if I'm not mistaken, Dragonblight was like 130 or so for the loremaster achievement before they updated those to showing storyline requirements).

    And I like how the post you're replying to says "they can't do it all in one go" as if they haven't been updating everything slowly for multiple expansions now. There is nothing "all in one go" about how the asset updates have been handled.
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  15. #19715
    Quote Originally Posted by Izalla View Post
    And I like how the post you're replying to says "they can't do it all in one go" as if they haven't been updating everything slowly for multiple expansions now. There is nothing "all in one go" about how the asset updates have been handled.
    Than we need some kind of wall between old unrewamped zones with new ones. I read somewhere about concept of losing to Void and slowly getting free zones gradually. Start with Kalimdor - Durotar and Hyjal, and EK with Silvermoon and Strmwind. And gradually add new lands.

  16. #19716
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    That's why I'm all in for revamping (or rather returning to, cause I don't want Cata versions deleted) EK/Kalimdor in 2 expansions. One, even large continent per expac is feasible and all zones could get focus they deserve.

    Especially cities, we all stay in single hub anyway (at best it's 1 hub per faction). If we split revamp to 2 expacs, 4 cities could get their moment to shine and smaller ones like Thunder Bluff or Gilneas could become patch hubs.

  17. #19717
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    That's why I'm all in for revamping (or rather returning to, cause I don't want Cata versions deleted) EK/Kalimdor in 2 expansions. One, even large continent per expac is feasible and all zones could get focus they deserve.

    Especially cities, we all stay in single hub anyway (at best it's 1 hub per faction). If we split revamp to 2 expacs, 4 cities could get their moment to shine and smaller ones like Thunder Bluff or Gilneas could become patch hubs.
    I don't see why we couldn't get both.
    Most of the zones fully revamped with quests and whatnot. A few given less focus initially, but focused heavily on in patches.

    As an example. Twilight Highlands, Eastern/Western Plaguelands, and Silithus/Uldum/Tanaris, are given minimal focus in the initial revamp, mostly just graphical for parity and a few side quests.
    Then in the major patches each one get much more attention, both in terms of the zone and quests, to go alongside the raid.

    The way I see it is that you make new "levelling" zones for each main race, mostly to ensure you have a solid foundation of race lore. Stuff like Dun Murogh and Loch Modan being dedicated to these lore heavy questlines.
    That takes out a good chunk of the zones in one go.
    After that you could easily amalgamate the remaining zones into 3 or so chunks for narrative purposes, which would add up to the usual amount of "zones" for an expansion.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  18. #19718
    Scarab Lord Polybius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pheraz View Post
    Would be interesting to see how often towlie was making stuff up or was selling his ideas as leaks
    I still don't buy an underground expansion
    Those new tech for zaralek where the area is loaded while you are in that tunnel could be reused though I guess
    Maybe they'll do a partly revamp and little holes to that new area here and there
    Folks are forgetting this tech can be used for locations like Blackrock Mountain/MC, Razorfen, Wailing Caverns, Blackfathom, and even Ahn Quiraj. That's especially if they plan to expand zones from within.

  19. #19719
    The Lightbringer Izalla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    Than we need some kind of wall between old unrewamped zones with new ones. I read somewhere about concept of losing to Void and slowly getting free zones gradually. Start with Kalimdor - Durotar and Hyjal, and EK with Silvermoon and Strmwind. And gradually add new lands.
    Disagree because I think revamping two zones at a time would be pointless. We don't know how much work they've put into things behind the scenes over these years except from what we can see of the new buildings and what we can assume from things like terrain and other such environmental assets. The entire continent of Kalimdor or Eastern Kingdoms, when you look at actual size and not amount of zones, is not that different from previous expansion continents, and they've clearly been prepping for the revamp for much longer than they usually work on an expansion. How many times do you think they go "we should make a goat model for this zone because goats will be very important in 4 years and we can get a head start by using them in this expac"? Because that's basically what how they have set themselves up for whole world/whole continent revamp since maybe WoD when they made the garrison assets, and certainly in the expansions since. Just look at a zone like Maldraxxus that has giant diseased mushrooms for... no good reason. Maldraxxus is actually the worst afterlife ever. It's disgusting. It's not even a punishment zone, and there's not much sense in all the rot and corpses and crap that is based in physical death in the living world. Unless you're finding an excuse to revamp a ton of things you'll need for scourged areas of Azeroth. Hey, there is even a zone in Azeroth that has giant rotten mushrooms for trees! Maldraxxus has no business existing except as nostalgia bait for the Plaguelands, and for Plaguelands assets. It's conceptually horribly otherwise.
    Last edited by Izalla; 2023-09-26 at 08:32 AM.
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  20. #19720
    Quote Originally Posted by Izalla View Post
    Disagree because I think revamping two zones at a time would be pointless. We don't know how much work they've put into things behind the scenes over these years except from what we can see of the new buildings and what we can assume from things like terrain and other such environmental assets. The entire continent of Kalimdor or Eastern Kingdoms, when you look at actual size and not amount of zones, is not that different from previous expansion continents, and they've clearly been prepping for the revamp for much longer than they usually work on an expansion. How many times do you think they go "we should make a goat model for this zone because goats will be very important in 4 years and we can get a head start by using them in this expac"? Because that's basically what how they have set themselves up for whole world/whole continent revamp since maybe WoD when they made the garrison asset, and certainly in the expansion since. Just look at a zone like Maldraxxus that has giant diseased mushrooms for... no good reason. Maldraxxus is actually the worst afterlife ever. It's disgusting. It's not even a punishment zone, and there's not much sense in all the rot and corpses and crap that is based in physical death in the living world. Unless you're finding an excuse to revamp a ton of things you'll need for scourged areas of Azeroth. Hey, there is even a zone in Azeroth that has giant rotten mushrooms for trees! Maldraxxus has no business existing except as nostalgia bait for the Plaguelands, and for Plaguelands assets. It's conceptually horribly otherwise.
    I think more alike half of continents. EK - Lordaeron and Azeroth (Line between Khaz-Modan and Arathi), Kalimdor - North from Barrens, and south of Ashenvale. Something like that.

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