The pain starts after you hit level 70.

[Wyrt]

Doing daily stuff for weeks and months to increase your renown to reach max is the epitome of grinding, renown is even called as the "reputation grind" by basically everyone, but whatever. Have fun.

No, grinding is what people are doing with the black dragon keys. That's grinding. Logging in, doing a few WQs and weekly quests isn't grinding, it's playing the game.

There isn't even daily stuff to do for rep anymore. There's new WQs every 4 days and then a few weekly events and quests.

[Nyel]

Yeah but his point is that grind means going out of your way.
For example, Wrathion rep. You can grind keys and get there or you can just do your quests once a week and eventually get there. First is grind, second is not grind. But now we're all getting into semanthics.

For me - and several others, as I've reads lots of complaints already in the forums - doing daily chores to unlock basic things of the expansion is a grind. Because there are no other ways to do it than doing these chores.

I can see that for others it's not a chore but a fun activity and they enjoy doing this on a daily basis. So eventually it boils down to the type of player you are if it's a grind or just playing the game for you.

[Azharok]

Nothing new here. Xpack's start is always overtuned. You have to take something away in order to make players grind it back.

Dungeons are not overtuned, not even close. You can do m0 as soon as you hit lvl 70 with 310 ilvl.

[Whitepaw]

I totally agree!

I got to around ilvl 350 extremely fast, by doing some WQs and buying a lot of crafted items on AH for very little gold. It's never been easier to gear up to HCs.

[venny77]

You had to do a ton of world quests to get to those renown levels when the only other thing you did was the main story quests and lore master.

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Uhm, please look where the main campaign quests are locked and then talk about grind again. Yes, it's a horrible grind for the players that want to experience the main storyline, when you have to get to renown 19 or even 25 with some factions.

What exactly are you complaining about here? Would you prefer they just didn't release the content for a few months then release all of the remaining content in one go? This is probably blizzard's way of saying: we've added more content that you'll be able to access in a few weeks of doing regular activity, so log in as much as you can, have fun and try out all these other things to do in our game before we progress the story further.

Or perhaps you'd like all the content to be dropped and accessible from day 1, with nothing else to do except raid or run dungeons/pvp until the first major patch 6 months later?

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Everything is locked behind renown, from cosmetics, to profession recipes, to Dragonriding customization to the main campaign quests. So unless you really just care for Mythic+ and raiding, you're fine. If you care for anything more than that, you're forced to grind renown.

And don't get me started on this narrow minded way of thinking. Having cosmetics, recipes etc locked behind renown is no different to rep. It's called a reward, for putting in the time and effort. They are literally called reputation/renown rewards. Would you prefer to be given all of this as soon as you hit max level too?
Or maybe you have a better idea for a reward system for all of this content. I'm sure blizz would love to hear these ideas.

Clown.

[rhorle]

That's simply not true. Being at your renown levels, you did not do the "main content", you must have done way more than that, e.g. grinding rares, dailies or the three mind-numbingly boring events. By just doing the "main content" (which is the campaign and lore master) you don't get anywhere close to your renown levels.

I am 13, 13, 9, 13 and I've done no "grinding". I've been level 70 for about a week now and have just been doing the world quests and others as I can. I've had a few extra obsidian keys but they were all gained while doing the quests for the black flight. The only renown that seems to require grinding is Tuskarr but I've read if you fish a lot you can get rep items to turn in. I don't even have lore master yet.

You can't exclude doing all the stuff there is to do from the equation because that is the natural flow that Blizzard has "balanced" around. Of course those who skip stuff will be lower but why are they grinding when they've skipped stuff that can easily get renown up?

[Nyel]

What exactly are you complaining about here? Would you prefer they just didn't release the content for a few months then release all of the remaining content in one go? This is probably blizzard's way of saying: we've added more content that you'll be able to access in a few weeks of doing regular activity, so log in as much as you can, have fun and try out all these other things to do in our game before we progress the story further.

Or perhaps you'd like all the content to be dropped and accessible from day 1, with nothing else to do except raid or run dungeons/pvp until the first major patch 6 months later?

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And don't get me started on this narrow minded way of thinking. Having cosmetics, recipes etc locked behind renown is no different to rep. It's called a reward, for putting in the time and effort. They are literally called reputation/renown rewards. Would you prefer to be given all of this as soon as you hit max level too?
Or maybe you have a better idea for a reward system for all of this content. I'm sure blizz would love to hear these ideas.

Clown.

How is this different to like it is now? Because that's exactly how it is right now, lol. And I never complained about cosmetics locked behind renown. My main complaint is the campaign being locked behind very high renown levels (besides everything else being locked as well, but that's a minor problem compared to what I mentioned).

And I'm rather the clown than the entire circus.

[rhorle]

Uhm, please look where the main campaign quests are locked and then talk about grind again. Yes, it's a horrible grind for the players that want to experience the main storyline, when you have to get to renown 19 or even 25 with some factions.

The first "campaign" quests start at renown 11-13. It isn't a horrible grind if you do things at the rate Blizzard has set. If you want to speed it up then yes you have to grind a lot. I'm not sure why everything needs to be available the second week of an expansion or be called a horrible grind. Even in the past you had to wait because there were hard time gates. Dragonflight has soft time gates because you can speed up the process by grinding if you want to. If you don't want to grind you play the game and get the unlocks at the pace Blizzard picked.

[Nyel]

You can't exclude doing all the stuff there is to do from the equation because that is the natural flow that Blizzard has "balanced" around. Of course those who skip stuff will be lower but why are they grinding when they've skipped stuff that can easily get renown up?

What does "skip stuff" mean? Skipping world quests? Because that's the only thing I'm skipping, I completed all the original content of DF (main story + lore master) and did the events 2-3 times (I can't stand them as they are awful, boring "content").

I mean on one hand they don't want players to force log in every day to do world quests, but at the end of the day you are still forced to do them nonetheless because otherwise you can't access the main story? For me that sounds like a major logical failure of their new less-is-more design philosophy.

[rhorle]

Doing daily stuff for weeks and months to increase your renown to reach max is the epitome of grinding, renown is even called as the "reputation grind" by basically everyone, but whatever. Have fun.

Simply playing the game is not a grind. Grinding for renown is doing obsidian keys for hours. Those are the people that are approaching max renown already because they are doing the grindy stuff. Doing quests, world-quests, weeklies, bi-weeklies, etc is not grinding. It is playing the game and gaining renown at the pace Blizzard designed.

[Nyel]

The first "campaign" quests start at renown 11-13. It isn't a horrible grind if you do things at the rate Blizzard has set. If you want to speed it up then yes you have to grind a lot. I'm not sure why everything needs to be available the second week of an expansion or be called a horrible grind. Even in the past you had to wait because there were hard time gates. Dragonflight has soft time gates because you can speed up the process by grinding if you want to. If you don't want to grind you play the game and get the unlocks at the pace Blizzard picked.

Time gates are something different. Things were just released on a weekly basis - was it better? For casuals yes, because you could just wait several weeks and play all the main story content. In DF they force you to do stuff to unlock it, otherwise you couldn't ever see it (unless they change the system). How it is in DF, I'll never experience the later stages of the main campaign whereas in Shadowlands I could if I wanted.

[slickyjohn]

honestly, there isn't really anything to do at 70.
feels a bit like wod.

[rhorle]

In DF they force you to do stuff to unlock it, otherwise you couldn't ever see it (unless they change the system). How it is in DF, I'll never experience the later stages of the main campaign whereas in Shadowlands I could if I wanted.

In shadowlands you still had to earn Renown each week even if behind. It wasn't until the next tier patch that Blizzard added the skip that would allow you see the past story with out actually playing the game much. There is no real renown grind if you just do the major stuff each week. It is slower but that is the choice you've made for not wanting to play the game as much.

[Stickiler]

For me - and several others, as I've reads lots of complaints already in the forums - doing daily chores to unlock basic things of the expansion is a grind. Because there are no other ways to do it than doing these chores.

I can see that for others it's not a chore but a fun activity and they enjoy doing this on a daily basis. So eventually it boils down to the type of player you are if it's a grind or just playing the game for you.

Oh no, you had to do 1 hour of gameplay every three days, what a TRUE HORROR

[czarek]

Unlike other expansions, the faction reputation grind is mandatory for the campaign.
The random heroic requires very high gear ilevel.

Gear is the easiest thing to obtain in this expansion HC dungeos shouldnt exist imo there is no reason to do them since day one. Rep will go rise anyway while doin quests and prob catch up will come :P