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  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by JustaRandomReindeer View Post
    No, I am just tired of explaining the same thing over and over again. I proved to you that artifacts had more traits than azerite gear does. You turned it into an argument about RNG. We both know that coming up with 416 traits and then randomizing how they appear on armor does not mean more thought and work was put into the feature. And I give you the cheeseburger and buttered toast example again. Moving on.
    At no point did I turn it into "an argument about RNG." None of my calculations were derived based on drop rates, they all assumed you had unlimited access to any and every option and simply had to choose. Just because you don't understand the concept does not make my point any less valid. As has also been said innumerable times, quantity does not equate to quality. You could walk to your local convenience store and pick up a mass-produced chocolate bar from a factory pumping out millions of bars a day, doesn't mean it'll be higher quality than if you went to a Chocolatier with a small shop making specialty bars 24 at a time. You can't just give a half-assed, poorly thought out "example" and call it a day, I already showed you just how stupid and nonsensical your buttered bread and cheeseburger example was. How about you grow up and learn to admit when you're wrong?

    For future reference, allow me to demonstrate the difference between objective fact and subjective opinion:
    Legion artifacts had a larger number of traits compared to Azerite armor.
    Legion artifacts had a larger number of traits compared to Azerite armor and therefore are better.
    See the difference? It's subtle, I know, so make sure you look closely and study up.

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    If all you care is player power then yeah there isn't much to do and that's what the players kept demanding for the past 5 years so . . .
    If you want to experience the game though there isn't enough time in the day to see everything with Hunts, Siege, Soup, rares plus all the new achievements, the grinds available etc.

    The one thing I will agree on is that the raid is somewhat small.
    That's the usual problem again now: yeah, there is outdoor content, but no reason to it starting next week.

  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsyek View Post
    At no point did I turn it into "an argument about RNG." None of my calculations were derived based on drop rates, they all assumed you had unlimited access to any and every option and simply had to choose. Just because you don't understand the concept does not make my point any less valid. As has also been said innumerable times, quantity does not equate to quality. You could walk to your local convenience store and pick up a mass-produced chocolate bar from a factory pumping out millions of bars a day, doesn't mean it'll be higher quality than if you went to a Chocolatier with a small shop making specialty bars 24 at a time. You can't just give a half-assed, poorly thought out "example" and call it a day, I already showed you just how stupid and nonsensical your buttered bread and cheeseburger example was. How about you grow up and learn to admit when you're wrong?

    For future reference, allow me to demonstrate the difference between objective fact and subjective opinion:
    Legion artifacts had a larger number of traits compared to Azerite armor.
    Legion artifacts had a larger number of traits compared to Azerite armor and therefore are better.
    See the difference? It's subtle, I know, so make sure you look closely and study up.
    Yes you did. You turned it into an argument about possible combinations as if that's gonna prove to me somehow that the system had more work and thought put into it when Blizzard themself admitted that they just took Artifact traits, cut them by half( and that's not even taking into account the fact that the number of azerite traits was much lower on release whereas Legion had 828 traits from the moment it released), and randomized how they appear on armor. Who is talking about quantity and quality here? Azerite traits were way lower quality than artifact traits but that's just my opinion. I am not sure where you showed me how stupid my example is? And nowhere in my example did I state I like cheeseburger more. In fact, I pointed out very early on that you can think buttered bread is better and that's your opinion, but it's a fact that a cheeseburger has more work put into it and more ingredients(simply because it already has bread and butter in it). Also, your meagre attempts to insult me are not really making your argument more convincing. Moving on

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by JustaRandomReindeer View Post
    That's not necessarily true. We knew the Earth is round before we built the first space rocket. You can look at the feature and you can tell by its quality that someone put a lot of effort into making it. And once again the buttered toast and cheeseburger example. I don't need to know how to make a cheeseburger nor do I need to ask the person who made it to know that it takes more time to prepare and has more ingredients than a buttered toast

    You dont seem to be very good at reading now either?
    Knowing the earth is round before we built the first space rocket? Sure, we know this as a fact. The ability to go to space and then see it just affirms it rather than actually discovering new facts about a basic statement. We learnt new things from doing so. The space rocket wasn't being built to prove the geometry of the earth.(unless I am wrong? I feel the need to walk on eggshells because if you are 0.0001% wrong then that's the only part that will be thrown back at you to void everything else)

    Can you tell by just looking? No, you can make an assumption and an opinion based upon that.

    I feel like you need to stick to a point and argue a point rather than trying to use analogies badly? Im not trying to be toxic but you arent helping yourself here. You ignored previous constructive posts just to pick fights with other ones.

    How are you cooking the cheeseburger? Do you have an oven?
    How are you making Toast? Do you have a Toaster? Are you cooking it with a hairdryer?

    You are trying to compare two different types of food. Of course one is more complex than the other. But not always. Mcdonalds can throw a cheeseburger together quicker than I can at home. Does theirs end up being better than mine? (yes, but that's because I am a terrible housewife).

    Personally I would use hairstyles and the time it takes to achieve a 'look' in the morning.

    I can roll out of bed, throw on a hoodie and walk out the house, but I will look like a goblin to some people (99% of people!)
    I can spend 15 mins to do a quick look or I can spend an hour or more.

    The outcome is then based upon peoples opinion. Not fact. Because thats it, people like different things. Thats what this has become, its nothing to do with facts because we have none. Using a societal model of beauty to say spending an hour to look good is better than 15 mins or nothing is still opinion. Nothing to do with facts even if they seem like they could be. Its preference and opinion.

    I dont think an average person could tell the difference between 1 or 2 hours of getting ready unless you know.
    Dev time is unknown.
    Last edited by Flizzle; 2022-12-08 at 02:01 PM.

  5. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by JustaRandomReindeer View Post
    Yes you did. You turned it into an argument about possible combinations as if that's gonna prove to me somehow that the system had more work
    There's a fundamental difference between RNG and possible combinations. The fact that you don't understand that is quite frankly alarming. My example wasn't about letting random chance dictate your traits, it was about the shear number of possible combinations you as a player could make given all options. Also once again, you've derailed yourself for a second time. You made the argument that artifacts were better because they were more complex. I showed you how complex Azerite could be. At no point was my argument that it had more work. I was not making an assertion, i was challenging yours. Learn the difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by JustaRandomReindeer View Post
    Blizzard themself admitted that they just took Artifact traits, cut them by half
    Source. You can't just say, "BLIZZARD SAID" and expect me to take you at face value considering the endless rhetoric and nonsense that you've spewed onto the internet.

    Quote Originally Posted by JustaRandomReindeer View Post
    I am not sure where you showed me how stupid my example is? And nowhere in my example did I state I like cheeseburger more. In fact, I pointed out very early on that you can think buttered bread is better and that's your opinion, but it's a fact that a cheeseburger has more work put into it and more ingredients(simply because it already has bread and butter in it).
    Ah, short term memory loss kicking in again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darsyek View Post
    Your example, by the way, it a terrible example because there are, in fact, times when you could correctly say that bread and butter has more ingredients than a cheeseburger. If I use a store-bought bread, the bread alone can contain over a dozen ingredients whereas if I make buns at home I can use as few as 5, 6, or 7. Add 3 ingredients for a simple burger patty and cheese, you're only looking at 11 ingredients at most, less than just the store-bought bread alone before you even factor in the butter, or if you want the inverse to say it takes more effort then make a cheeseburger with store-bought ingredients and make a loaf of bread and churn your own butter at home. Your example is honestly probably one of the single worst ones you could've picked. But that's all besides the point.
    But I shouldn't be surprised considering nothing else has slipped through to you.

    You'd think having so many people tell you you're wrong would cause at least some level of self-reflection, but I guess what can you expect from someone with Main Character Syndrome.

  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by Flizzle View Post
    You dont seem to be very good at reading now either?
    Knowing the earth is round before we built the first space rocket? Sure, we know this as a fact. The ability to go to space and then see it just affirms it rather than actually discovering new facts about a basic statement. We learnt new things from doing so. The space rocket wasn't being built to prove the geometry of the earth.(unless I am wrong? I feel the need to walk on eggshells because if you are 0.0001% wrong then that's the only part that will be thrown back at you to void everything else)

    Can you tell by just looking? No, you can make an assumption and an opinion based upon that.

    I feel like you need to stick to a point and argue a point rather than trying to use analogies badly? Im not trying to be toxic but you arent helping yourself here. You ignored previous constructive posts just to pick fights with other ones.

    How are you cooking the cheeseburger? Do you have an oven?
    How are you making Toast? Do you have a Toaster? Are you cooking it with a hairdryer?

    You are trying to compare two different types of food. Of course one is more complex than the other. But not always. Mcdonalds can throw a cheeseburger together quicker than I can at home. Does theirs end up being better than mine? (yes, but that's because I am a terrible housewife).

    Personally I would use hairstyles and the time it takes to achieve a 'look' in the morning.

    I can roll out of bed, throw on a hoodie and walk out the house, but I will look like a goblin to some people (99% of people!)
    I can spend 15 mins to do a quick look or I can spend an hour or more.

    The outcome is then based upon peoples opinion. Not fact. Because thats it, people like different things. Thats what this has become, its nothing to do with facts because we have none. Using a societal model of beauty to say spending an hour to look good is better than 15 mins or nothing is still opinion. Nothing to do with facts even if they seem like they could be. Its preference and opinion.

    I dont think an average person could tell the difference between 1 or 2 hours of getting ready unless you know.
    Dev time is unknown.
    We are comparing two features developed by the same team working for the same company having access to the same tools. I am not comparing Blizzard to some indie company. I didn't think that needs mentioning. It doesn't matter if you are a terrible cook or if you are a good one. Making a cheeseburger from scratch is gonna require more effort and more ingredients than making a buttered toast. That's a simple fact. The Earth is round. That's a fact. It's a fact that we didn't need space rockets to prove. And Azerite gear did not have as much thought put into it as Artifact Weapons. That's also a fact. You don't need to have worked on it to know that. But here I will just post what Ion said in an interview for you.

    It gives us a lot to think about, for sure. There's some design philosophy lessons learned in terms of the importance of player agency, what types of progression do and don't feel good, permanent versus temporary power. In some ways, we designed the Azerite armor system to respond to what we saw as a failing in Legion Artifacts in a lot of ways. Legion Artifacts had fantastic choice and customization but it was very frontloaded. It was one of those areas that players didn't complain about, but we saw a lot and perceived as designers. For the first two months you were making tons of choices as you were speccing out your Ashbringer or your Doomhammer or whatever else, but then for the rest of the expansion, once you unlocked those gold border traits, you were just putting Artifact Power into a linear progression that was giving you small incremental upgrades for the next year and a half. You weren't making any big choices and you were like every other [Retribution] paladin because you all had the same fully unlocked Ashbringer. That felt like a missed opportunity for us.

    We wanted to find a way to have that alternate advancement at max level, where you'd be presented with a stream of continual, interesting choices for new pieces of armor that you would get would offer opportunities and possibilities and things to unlock and goals to work towards. That all sounded great on paper, obviously, and we've seen a lot of the negative feedback of the execution of that idea.

    Procedurally, there are definitely some things for us to learn. A big failing of the way we approached designing Battle for Azeroth and testing it was we waited too long in the process to get the Azerite armor and the Azerite traits fully stood up in the beta. We were playtesting them internally and making sure they felt good to have, but we didn't leave ourselves enough time in beta to get a good feel for how we or players are going to play through the game organically at max level. Hitting 120, doing dungeons over the course of weeks, upgrading your gear, getting your artifact power up.

    We missed some important data there that would have been essential to catch this earlier that might've led to us making improvements before the system was live.
    I am not sure what constructive posts you are referring to but I am ignoring anything that's requiring me to explain the same thing for the 20th time.

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by JustaRandomReindeer View Post
    I am not sure what constructive posts you are referring to but I am ignoring anything that's requiring me to explain the same thing for the 20th time.
    Funny, none of this is Blizzard admitting they just took artifact traits and cut them in half... It's almost like... You made that up on the spot?

    Also, you misspelled, "arrogant and ignorant and so headstrong I can't admit to being wrong on the internet."
    Last edited by Darsyek; 2022-12-08 at 02:25 PM.

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsyek View Post
    Funny, none of this is Blizzard admitting they just took artifact traits and cut them in half... It's almost like... You made that up on the spot?

    Also, you misspelled, "arrogant and ignorant and so headstrong I can't admit to being wrong on the internet."
    No, I just checked the total number of artifact traits, and the total number of azerite traits. I don't need Blizzard to tell me that to figure out they did it. But keep building strawmans.

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by JustaRandomReindeer View Post
    And Azerite gear did not have as much thought put into it as Artifact Weapons. That's also a fact. You don't need to have worked on it to know that. But here I will just post what Ion said in an interview for you.
    I dont see that 'fact' being pointed out in that post?

    He states; we ran out of time and didnt get enough playtesting.
    literally at no point has he given a specific numerical time value, just we didnt start this quick enough. That to mean means they thought it would take as long as the previous version of borrowed power and we didnt think it would take longer. Turns out, it took longer to do and therefore we ran out of time.

    Therefore artifact gear took longer, therefore by your previous argument, it is more complex because it took longer because they wanted to put more time into it?
    So the iteration we received was less than their intended, but it still took the same amount of time given by the previous budget.

    Now, you can go and say, well that's presumptive to think that they budgeted the same amount of time. Well guess what, we dont know dev time. Pot kettle black.

  10. #270

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by JustaRandomReindeer View Post
    No, I just checked the total number of artifact traits, and the total number of azerite traits. I don't need Blizzard to tell me that to figure out they did it. But keep building strawmans.
    What do you mean, "keep building strawmans"? YOU literally said they admitted it.

    Quote Originally Posted by JustaRandomReindeer View Post
    Blizzard themself admitted that they just took Artifact traits, cut them by half
    There are so many things I could say, so many insults I could fling, but at the end of the day you're just not worth it. It baffles me how within less than an hour you've already forgotten the things you lie about. It was funny before, watching you flail between arguments instead of actually addressing the counterpoints made against you, but now it's just sad. Now I'm just convinced you have an illness. I don't know you, and I pray I never do because you are insufferable, but get help.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsyek View Post
    What do you mean, "keep building strawmans"? YOU literally said they admitted it.



    There are so many things I could say, so many insults I could fling, but at the end of the day you're just not worth it. It baffles me how within less than an hour you've already forgotten the things you lie about. It was funny before, watching you flail between arguments instead of actually addressing the counterpoints made against you, but now it's just sad. Now I'm just convinced you have an illness. I don't know you, and I pray I never do because you are insufferable, but get help.
    Sir, my post literally says that they tried to design the azerite system to be like the artifact system with added choice and variety. And we know a lot of the azerite traits were the same as or similar to artifact traits. That's it. I am not sure why you are getting so hung up on an exaggeration. You should worry about yourself. I'm not the one getting worked up over internet arguments and insulting people and building strawmans just to have something to be right about.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Flizzle View Post
    I dont see that 'fact' being pointed out in that post?

    He states; we ran out of time and didnt get enough playtesting.
    literally at no point has he given a specific numerical time value, just we didnt start this quick enough. That to mean means they thought it would take as long as the previous version of borrowed power and we didnt think it would take longer. Turns out, it took longer to do and therefore we ran out of time.

    Therefore artifact gear took longer, therefore by your previous argument, it is more complex because it took longer because they wanted to put more time into it?
    So the iteration we received was less than their intended, but it still took the same amount of time given by the previous budget.

    Now, you can go and say, well that's presumptive to think that they budgeted the same amount of time. Well guess what, we dont know dev time. Pot kettle black.
    Or it simply means that they rushed it and it came out horrible because at the end of the day they did not put enough thought into it. No need for mental gymnastics.

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by JustaRandomReindeer View Post
    Sir
    Oops, gotta add misgendering to the list of nonsense now too. Also if you think I'm in any way "worked up" about you talking yourself in circles making yourself look like a fool, I'm sorry to disappoint. Truth is, I use discussions on the internet like this as writing practice and little more. Some sporting debate, if you will. Unfortunately, you're incredibly boring to debate with because you can't even keep your own arguments straight longer than two posts. Not even that sometimes. You enjoy your life forever blinded by those rose-tinted goggles and logical fallacies, my friend, I fear you won't have much else.

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by JustaRandomReindeer View Post
    Or it simply means that they rushed it and it came out horrible because at the end of the day they did not put enough thought into it. No need for mental gymnastics.
    Thats an opinion haha. We dont know the timeframe on it.

    But I can tell you that as per your previous posts. They built the azerite system ontop of the artifact system and tried to develop it further.
    In doing so, a lot of the time spent developing the artifact system then became development time for the artifact system...

    So.. it took longer to develop.

    Now your original argument that you seem to have forgotten is that the legion system was better than the bfa system.
    So by you saying the above, you agree.

    its not mental gymnastics, its trying to control the narrative and changing your own goalposts to suit.

    Ill try to get some clarity.

    1. Was the content rushed in BFA? - Fact (as stated by Ion as they ran out of time)
    2. Was the content worse in BFA? - Opinion
    3. How much time was spent making specific BFA content? - Fact (but unknown)
    4. How much time was spent making specific Legion content? - Fact (but unknown)

    I think you are trying to argue point two by using points 1, 3 and 4.

    You can use facts to back up an opinion. But you need to know the facts, we dont know the answer to 3 and 4 and can only speculate.
    Therefore we can only use point 1. And this doesnt aid your argument to completion because there are more aspects to it. And the circle continues.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Flizzle View Post
    Thats an opinion haha. We dont know the timeframe on it.

    But I can tell you that as per your previous posts. They built the azerite system ontop of the artifact system and tried to develop it further.
    In doing so, a lot of the time spent developing the artifact system then became development time for the artifact system...

    So.. it took longer to develop.

    Now your original argument that you seem to have forgotten is that the legion system was better than the bfa system.
    So by you saying the above, you agree.

    its not mental gymnastics, its trying to control the narrative and changing your own goalposts to suit.

    Ill try to get some clarity.

    1. Was the content rushed in BFA? - Fact (as stated by Ion as they ran out of time)
    2. Was the content worse in BFA? - Opinion
    3. How much time was spent making specific BFA content? - Fact (but unknown)
    4. How much time was spent making specific Legion content? - Fact (but unknown)

    I think you are trying to argue point two by using points 1, 3 and 4.

    You can use facts to back up an opinion. But you need to know the facts, we dont know the answer to 3 and 4 and can only speculate.
    Therefore we can only use point 1. And this doesnt aid your argument to completion because there are more aspects to it. And the circle continues.
    So the original point was that almost every Legion feature was made worse in subsequent expansions. Ion admits it himself that they tried to "fix" an issue that people weren't complaining about but only screwed it up and received negative feedback. It happened again in Shadowlands. Here's how you can infer that they did not spend more time developing BfA than they did Legion: They abandoned WoD to develop Legion and it was released with a lot of brand new features that were generally well received. On the other hand you have BfA that did not come out with as many new features as Legion and the ones it did have(azerite armor, island expeditions, warfronts) were all rushed and received pretty poorly. But you can also look at the alpha cycles to infer on how much time they spent testing and developing both expansions. Legion's alpha started in late November 2015 and Legion was released on August 30th 2016. That's about 9 months. BfA alpha started in early february 2018 and the expansion was released on August 14th 2018. That's about 6 months. So here we have a fact that they spent more time working on and polishing Legion than they did BfA.

    So from this you can infer that every post-Legion expansion made Legion features worse because not enough thought and time was put into them. But we already knew that.

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by JustaRandomReindeer View Post
    So the original point was that almost every Legion feature was made worse in subsequent expansions. Ion admits it himself that they tried to "fix" an issue that people weren't complaining about but only screwed it up and received negative feedback. It happened again in Shadowlands. Here's how you can infer that they did not spend more time developing BfA than they did Legion: They abandoned WoD to develop Legion and it was released with a lot of brand new features that were generally well received. On the other hand you have BfA that did not come out with as many new features as Legion and the ones it did have(azerite armor, island expeditions, warfronts) were all rushed and received pretty poorly. But you can also look at the alpha cycles to infer on how much time they spent testing and developing both expansions. Legion's alpha started in late November 2015 and Legion was released on August 30th 2016. That's about 9 months. BfA alpha started in early february 2018 and the expansion was released on August 14th 2018. That's about 6 months. So here we have a fact that they spent more time working on and polishing Legion than they did BfA.

    So from this you can infer that every post-Legion expansion made Legion features worse because not enough thought and time was put into them. But we already knew that.
    Its why I said specific content in BFA and Legion. We dont know how much of that time was allocated. Yes, you can see timestamps of alpha and beta, but we also dont know the dev time before they went live. You could go by a quote somewhere that they start dev on the next one the day an expansion goes live. If we presume that they actually did cut wod and start legion earlier.. sure then its got a massive advantage in dev time and it wont be replicated again. Hopefully(although they pushed SL back a month)

    In an effort to put it to bed, it doesnt really matter, we can speculate actual times but we dont know the definitive answer which is what is needed to make it a fact.

    Back on topic..

    Legion was a great expansion. Better than BFA and SL. Thats my opinion and quite a popular one.
    I didnt like borrowed power when it was introduced. DF took it away and thats a good thing.
    Cant properly compare DF to the others as its week 1/2 vs completed expansions.

    What are the things that DF has taken from Legion? Specifically that havent been touched by SL and BFA?
    if the answer is none, then we have answered your original point, that this is the first expansion that hasnt 'ruined' a legion specific bit of content.

  17. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    That's the usual problem again now: yeah, there is outdoor content, but no reason to it starting next week.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
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  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Flizzle View Post
    Its why I said specific content in BFA and Legion. We dont know how much of that time was allocated. Yes, you can see timestamps of alpha and beta, but we also dont know the dev time before they went live. You could go by a quote somewhere that they start dev on the next one the day an expansion goes live. If we presume that they actually did cut wod and start legion earlier.. sure then its got a massive advantage in dev time and it wont be replicated again. Hopefully(although they pushed SL back a month)

    In an effort to put it to bed, it doesnt really matter, we can speculate actual times but we dont know the definitive answer which is what is needed to make it a fact.

    Back on topic..

    Legion was a great expansion. Better than BFA and SL. Thats my opinion and quite a popular one.
    I didnt like borrowed power when it was introduced. DF took it away and thats a good thing.
    Cant properly compare DF to the others as its week 1/2 vs completed expansions.

    What are the things that DF has taken from Legion? Specifically that havent been touched by SL and BFA?
    if the answer is none, then we have answered your original point, that this is the first expansion that hasnt 'ruined' a legion specific bit of content.
    Sure. It's the first expansion where they removed more features than they added tho. Which is the whole point I was trying to make hours ago before this devolved into a semanthics argument. I don't think it was correct to give us two expansions in a row of screwed up versions of Legion features only to decide to remove them altogether in the end. Players complaining about soulbinds and azerite gear shouldn't have led Blizzard to the conclusion that an engame progression system other than ilvl and raider.io is not needed. Artifacts were fine in Legion. They would have been fine if they kept them in the game as they were and just giving us different appearances to farm in subsequent expansions or new artifact weapons. It wouldn't have been much different from the talent tree revamp they did in DF. The only difference is that the talents would have been attached to your artifact and you would have had a reason to do world quests. Borrowed power was a thing only because they decided to start removing features after every expansion. It didn't have to be an issue.

    Now DF is left feeling like an expansion that came out before Legion. It's just empty. We'll see how it goes but right now it looks like it's gonna be hard to keep players interested.

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by JustaRandomReindeer View Post
    No, I am just tired of explaining the same thing over and over again. I proved to you that artifacts had more traits than azerite gear does. You turned it into an argument about RNG. We both know that coming up with 416 traits and then randomizing how they appear on armor does not mean more thought and work was put into it than into the feature that had 828 traits. And I give you the cheeseburger and buttered toast example again. Moving on.
    The artifact traits mostly sucked ass though. They were predominantly passive stat gains. Are you sure you're not just conflating the aesthetics of artifacts (top tier) with their mechanical design (mixed bag)?

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by Nadiru View Post
    The artifact traits mostly sucked ass though. They were predominantly passive stat gains. Are you sure you're not just conflating the aesthetics of artifacts (top tier) with their mechanical design (mixed bag)?
    It's been a long time and I could be wrong but weren't Azerite traits the same?

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