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  1. #41
    Tanking mythic dungeons did feel very easy tbh, this change just makes sense

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    If you can't out aoe dps tanks it's not an insult that you're a sub par player its a fact.
    And this is why everything you say isnt worth addressing.

    Not only are you unable to actually discuss what I'm saying, you feel the need to flat out make up arguments that aren't being said to argue instead because apparently it's too hard to actually discuss what is being said.

    Two fun tips-
    1) if you have to insert arguments that weren't said just to insult someone, everyone else can still see the posts, you're not making any actual points.

    2) I play a tank. I never said what role I played, but again, the fact that you needed to inject your own ridiculous assumptions just to insult someone shows your argument holds absolutely no water, and you're just doing some weird gatekeeping for "pros", which again, probably says a lot more about you.


    Quote Originally Posted by lordjust View Post
    DPS players can burst even higher than that. BM which isn't even that good at the moment can burst up to 200k dps on a big aoe pull and evoker close to 300k dps. Even when looking at total damage throughout the dungeon tank dps is nowhere near that of dps players. Worse I did was 40% of a dps player and best was something like 65% of a dps player.

    What I've seen is that most dps players are just bad and don't use their cds for trash. The dungeons are designed to pull big and have your cds ready for every pull and the boss. If dps palyers use their cds only on the boss, it's no wonder that they'll do less damage than the tank who uses his cds on every pull.
    To clarify again, I'm not saying tanks will beat out DPS in every situation ever.

    But it isn't some extreme gap, especially depending on specs and classes.

    For example, prot paladin vs ret paladin.
    Prot can just walk into a pull, pop AW and Divine Toll, instant 100k DPS, which will probably putter down to like 75k-80k depending on procs and speed the pack dies at. I'm sure there's DPS that can beat that, sure.

    But then to compare to ret, you'd have to first get 5 HoPo, use Seraphim, pop AW, pop Final Reckoning, have consecration up, and then you can start dumping damage. Which by then, packs probably almost dead.

    I will also say this will become less extreme in higher keys but it's still definitely clear that tanks are in a strong spot overall.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    And this is why everything you say isnt worth addressing.

    Not only are you unable to actually discuss what I'm saying, you feel the need to flat out make up arguments that aren't being said to argue instead because apparently it's too hard to actually discuss what is being said.

    Two fun tips-
    1) if you have to insert arguments that weren't said just to insult someone, everyone else can still see the posts, you're not making any actual points.

    2) I play a tank. I never said what role I played, but again, the fact that you needed to inject your own ridiculous assumptions just to insult someone shows your argument holds absolutely no water, and you're just doing some weird gatekeeping for "pros", which again, probably says a lot more about you.




    To clarify again, I'm not saying tanks will beat out DPS in every situation ever.

    But it isn't some extreme gap, especially depending on specs and classes.

    For example, prot paladin vs ret paladin.
    Prot can just walk into a pull, pop AW and Divine Toll, instant 100k DPS, which will probably putter down to like 75k-80k depending on procs and speed the pack dies at. I'm sure there's DPS that can beat that, sure.

    But then to compare to ret, you'd have to first get 5 HoPo, use Seraphim, pop AW, pop Final Reckoning, have consecration up, and then you can start dumping damage. Which by then, packs probably almost dead.

    I will also say this will become less extreme in higher keys but it's still definitely clear that tanks are in a strong spot overall.
    I think it is also to try and address how powerful tanks are in mid level rated pvp. A lot of players expected them to fall off harder with sl powers going away myself included but in 2s and solo shuffle they are far to durable for the damage they can deal with guardian druids being the most egregious.

    I wish they could find a playstyle for tanks that wasn't a dps spec wearing a suit.
    Last edited by Celement; 2022-12-10 at 04:57 PM.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    It's bad design to have healers that just sit there to wait until there's unavoidable damage to then throw out a heal, and sit there and pretend they're a DPS the rest of the time.
    If your healers are ever "just [sitting] there" at any point in an instance, they're doing something terribly wrong. "Pretending they're a DPS" is part of what makes healers good. It's bad design to have them not constantly stopcasting heals on people? Blizzard clearly disagrees, and they're not wrong for a change.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    I will also say this will become less extreme in higher keys but it's still definitely clear that tanks are in a strong spot overall.
    If you're pulling so small that everything dies in 15 seconds, then it's no wonder your healers are sitting around doing nothing. You should be clearing these M0s in 12-15 minutes at this point.
    "Quack, quack, Mr. Bond."

  5. #45
    I rolled a healer to actually heal, not be a 4th DPS. If a tank literally does not need me to survive I find absolutely no fun in spamming a few dps buttons and occasionally healing a DPS who stands in bad or group damage. I don't give a shit what the "top" healers in M+ say - the game should not be catered towards them. Do I like being able to do damage during downtime? Sure! Should a tank literally not need me? No!

    I play a tank as well and the fun in that is being able to use smart cooldown usage to survive as long as possible, not be immortal. Not until you severely outgear the content.

  6. #46
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    Finally, a Dragonflight change/action I fundamentally disagree with. Granted, I am biased as I mostly main Blood since my raid needed a tank on short notice in late WOD and it turned out I loved tanking. But I sincerely think this is a very poor choice by Blizzard.

    Tanks do not need to be less survivable. Tanks do not need to be less attractive to play. Tanks do not need to suffer weakness in difficult play. Tanks do not need to lose their sole advantage to enjoyment to their play in world content.

    But more than a tank nerf, this feels like Blizzard trying to reduce healers' M+ damage output in a roundabout fashion under some wobbly justification of "healers want to feel needed by their tank". It feels like they are determined to make healers work harder to keep tanks up in content that already has affixes and difficult mechanics that require healers plan and play around. It feels like healers will have to work harder and burn more GCDs on propping up a tank than making more complex, satisfying choices. It feels like this is penalizing them almost as much as it penalizes tanks.

    I think this is a mistake.

  7. #47
    there were too many tanks in wow.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by xmirrors View Post
    I rolled a healer to actually heal, not be a 4th DPS. If a tank literally does not need me to survive I find absolutely no fun in spamming a few dps buttons and occasionally healing a DPS who stands in bad or group damage. I don't give a shit what the "top" healers in M+ say - the game should not be catered towards them. Do I like being able to do damage during downtime? Sure! Should a tank literally not need me? No!

    I play a tank as well and the fun in that is being able to use smart cooldown usage to survive as long as possible, not be immortal. Not until you severely outgear the content.
    Too bad you don't understand this change at all if you think it's making self sufficient tanks suddenly reliant on you. Sorry we aren't going back in time 15 years.

    Congrats you got a change that literally just screwed over the lowest performing tanks even more. This change does nothing for the top 4 tanks, makes prot paladins even more reliant on hitting a cd at the proper time and makes brewmasters wind walkers with less damage and an increased aggro aura.

    People thinking I can't roll a prot war, blood dk, VDH or guardian druid and still pull every trash mob on the way to the first boss in a 0 and survive after this change... lol I can't in your fantasy world maybe. The knowledge of how tanks work among the people that somehow think this is a good change is incredibly low, so is the change catering to the lowest knowledge possible?

    I'm glad we tested M+ every weekend for a month so little jimmy here could tell us tanks are OP because of mythic 0s and for blizzard to cater to people that have absolutely no idea what they're talking about or a clue about the overall game design if they think most tank specs will ever need healer baby sitting.
    Last edited by Tech614; 2022-12-10 at 04:33 PM.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    I think it is also to try and address how powerful tanks are in mid level rated pvp. A lot of players expected them to fall off harder with sl powers going away myself included but in 2s and solo shuffle they are far to durable for damage they can deal with guardian druids being the most egregious.

    I wish they could find a playstyle for tanks that wasn't a dps spec wearing a suit.
    I'm surprised they haven't just neutered tanks for solo shuffle by now actually. I swear theyve given a strong stance that tanks in arena isn't fun for anyone, but maybe I'm misremembering


    Quote Originally Posted by Simulacrum View Post
    If your healers are ever "just [sitting] there" at any point in an instance, they're doing something terribly wrong. "Pretending they're a DPS" is part of what makes healers good. It's bad design to have them not constantly stopcasting heals on people? Blizzard clearly disagrees, and they're not wrong for a change.

    - - - Updated - - -



    If you're pulling so small that everything dies in 15 seconds, then it's no wonder your healers are sitting around doing nothing. You should be clearing these M0s in 12-15 minutes at this point.
    I see you took tips from Tech about inserting things that aren't said.

    First off, what part of Blizzard straight up saying they want tanks to depend on healers more did you take as them wanting healers to be part of the DPS?

    Secondly, how are you getting "ah, you must be pulling small!!" out of "mobs with more health will live longer causing burst from tanks to look less impressive"? Do you not know about dot specs or anything?

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    First off, what part of Blizzard straight up saying they want tanks to depend on healers more did you take as them wanting healers to be part of the DPS?
    Except for the part where it changes nothing about most tank specs not needing external healing and healer design is more than ever made around weaving dps abilities into the rotation.

    Please get a clue before commenting any further Jester, it's really not a great look.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    Except for the part where it changes nothing about most tank specs not needing external healing and healer design is more than ever made around weaving dps abilities into the rotation.

    Please get a clue before commenting any further Jester, it's really not a great look.
    Again, you're making up things I never said, Jesus man.

    Did I say this succeeded lol

    No? Thought so. But they clearly stated their thoughts on it.

    And they've said years ago the idea of letting healers do damage without wasting mana is to keep them engaged during down time, not to be important damage that matters. Carrying that mindset forward is all that matters, not how the players use it.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Again, you're making up things I never said, Jesus man.

    Did I say this succeeded lol

    No? Thought so. But they clearly stated their thoughts on it.
    No, some idiot blue poster made an incredibly stupid comment at odds with the overall game design. It's not something new and it's not the team as a whole's thoughts on it. The fact the strongest defensive tank got the least nerf should tell you how full of shit the idiot that put this change in is. Nobody would be mad with prot war, vdh and maybe gaurdian/blood also getting some additional tuning but a 5% nerf to prot wars in battle stance and a 10% nerf across the board to everyone else is the most brain dead thing ever and showing any amount of support for a change like that or the "reasoning" is just laughable. So brewmaster and prot paladin who just got buffed for being too squishy suddenly need a bigger nerf than prot war? LOL.
    Last edited by Tech614; 2022-12-10 at 04:47 PM.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    No, some idiot blue poster made an incredibly stupid comment at odds with the overall game design. It's not something new and it's not the team as a whole's thoughts on it. The fact the strongest defensive tank got the least nerf should tell you how full of shit the idiot that put this change in is. Nobody would be mad with prot war, vdh and maybe gaurdian/blood also getting some additional tuning but a 5% nerf to prot wars in battle stance and a 10% nerf across the board to everyone else is the most brain dead thing ever and showing any amount of support for a change like that or they "reasoning" is just laughable. So brewmaster and prot paladin who just got buffed for being too squishy suddenly need a bigger nerf than prot war? LOL.
    So your argument is "Blizzard is stupid and doesn't know what their own goal is"

    Gotcha.
    Just making that clear while you're trying to attack others.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    I see you took tips from Tech about inserting things that aren't said.
    Literal quotes from you verbatum, my man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    First off, what part of Blizzard straight up saying they want tanks to depend on healers more did you take as them wanting healers to be part of the DPS?
    Do you even play the game? Healers have been active DPS contributors for several expansions now. Healer DPS is one of the main criteria by which they are judged. You think that's just an accident? Oh, blizzard ACCIDENTALLY gave reso druids Nature's Vigil? They ACCIDENTALLY made evokers weave damage abilities into their healing rotation? Don't be so fucking obtuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Secondly, how are you getting "ah, you must be pulling small!!" out of "mobs with more health will live longer causing burst from tanks to look less impressive"? Do you not know about dot specs or anything?
    I'm getting "you must be pulling small!!" out of you saying that
    a) healers are "just [sitting] there". If your healer's just [sitting] there, you're pulling too small.
    b) you're apparently pulling around your own burst window, which means you're pulling extremely slowly. you should be going into triple-packs with nothing up in these instances, they are a joke. of course, if you play something super easy super safely, it's going to be boring and shitty.
    "Quack, quack, Mr. Bond."

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    So your argument is "Blizzard is stupid and doesn't know what their own goal is"
    If blizzard knew what their own goal was then explain to me how this change accomplishes their goal.

    Yes, the people that put in this change are dumb. Are you excusing them just because they work at blizzard? Please tell us how brewmasters needed to get nerfed. Let's see your supposed knowledge of the spec and class since you want to blind fan boy a random blue poster.

  16. #56
    Why you always nerf Blood DK? People work hard to utilize the class

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Xi Jinping View Post
    Why you always nerf Blood DK? People work hard to utilize the class
    Now healers will need to heal a blood DK! It won't just be you live or you die 100-0 in global or without RP after this amazing change, you heard it from Jester Joe himself the guy posting the nerf is a blue poster so he must know the goals of the game. /sarcasm

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    So your argument is "Blizzard is stupid and doesn't know what their own goal is"

    Gotcha.
    Just making that clear while you're trying to attack others.
    I'm not defending the guy but this wouldn't be the first time they've made a tuning pass which effectively came off exactly as you're saying. (The Frost Mage nerf in SL S3 preseason that they walked back almost immediately comes to mind.)

    Anybody who has actually played tanks right now knows that something needed to be done. I don't know if a flat 10% DR nerf was the best thing but we just have to trust that Blizzard's internal tests are accurate since they almost certainly weren't basing these nerfs on anything that's in the live game atm. I think some people are overstating how bad this is but it is not factually incorrect to say that this indirectly buffs Prot Warrior -- arguably already the strongest tank -- while nerfing the tanks which were struggling. (BrM especially.)

    Once Blizzard starts getting data next week I'm positive we'll see further tuning passes, though it'll likely be in the form of damage from the mobs in the dungeons instead of damage taken by players.
    Last edited by Relapses; 2022-12-10 at 05:01 PM.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    Too bad you don't understand this change at all if you think it's making self sufficient tanks suddenly reliant on you.
    I'm sorry, did I comment on the change at all? Did I praise Blizzard or say that this change will fix all of my problems with healing? No wonder nobody likes you, you're a miserable bastard who can't go 2 sentences without insulting somebody.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    I'm surprised they haven't just neutered tanks for solo shuffle by now actually. I swear theyve given a strong stance that tanks in arena isn't fun for anyone, but maybe I'm misremembering




    I see you took tips from Tech about inserting things that aren't said.

    First off, what part of Blizzard straight up saying they want tanks to depend on healers more did you take as them wanting healers to be part of the DPS?

    Secondly, how are you getting "ah, you must be pulling small!!" out of "mobs with more health will live longer causing burst from tanks to look less impressive"? Do you not know about dot specs or anything?
    They are going to try it and it is going to be a disaster in one of two ways. In solo tanks are not really likely to be a threat but just be annoying to kill. In that case tanks will be ignored as the second dps and whoever their partner dps or healer is will be burned. The other extreme is tanks can produce comparable damage to dps and will utterly dominate solo queue baring a few classes that can trade blows with them like havok.

    They keep trying to make tanks work in pvp but outside of rbgs they never do.

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