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  1. #21
    MM has been a stagnant spec since the good glaive nerf near the beginning of legion with only some sets etc to mix things up. If trading out some burst gets us a deeper look I'm for it.

  2. #22
    I for one am hoping MM is one of the specs being considered for a total rework, leaning more into the dark ranger fantasy that they've been slowly pushing over the past few years.

  3. #23
    How are some people happy about it xD i am not MM but wasn't this talent good for burst in m+/arena ?

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Nythiz View Post
    Deadeye is a horrible talent though; it does practically nothing for your dps.
    Either you'll be forced to take it to progress or you'll be spending the DT point + 1 floating talent point you currently have both into Steady Focus.
    Which might be decent for Raids, but quite lame for M+

    Both options are pretty bad as we lose flexibility that we obtained to opt for one of 4 different talents* depending on our needs.
    (* Heavy Ammo / Light Ammo / Wailing Arrow / Hunter's Knowledge)
    Bad move by blizzard to swap the talents really.




    I'm not so sure there. For single target you're probably better off taking Steady Focus anyway, since that was a solid talent for ST fights already, we just didn't have to points for it. Taking deadeye doesn't seem like a great choice either way, the bonus to Kill Shot is not that large.
    For AoE see what I said above; you're either forced into Steady Focus and lose the 1 flex point or you'll go for Deadeye which does nothing.

    For AoE I think you're overselling the manual trigger a bit. Is it better? Yes, but it's not THAT much better. Especially not with losing DT Rapid Fire.
    Most AoE pulls in M+ or Raids where you pull enough mobs to Volley/Multishot are worth using Explosive Shot on anyway.
    I think a lot of people will macro it on Volley to make sure they use it on CD every 45 seconds. Then you still have the slight control not to waste it with multishot on weak mobs, but it's still pretty much a no brainer.

    That all said. Double Tap for PvE wasn't massive. It's 1 extra Rapid Fire every minute, so mostly a bit of AoE lost.
    For PvP it's a bigger loss, but that talent caused a ton of issue I just hope they consider buffing Hunters in PvP if they start to slip.




    You never really needed focus, since you should always have been using Double Tap with Rapid Fire.
    Just pop it right before or as RF comes off cooldown.



    On PvP it's always been pretty binary.
    It's either super OP where you 1 shot out of Camo (or at least get him inside killshot range), or it doesn't and then it loses a lot of it's danger right away.
    Binary skills like that are never really good; if hunter's start to fall behind they should buff them elsewhere.
    On the Deadeye stuff - yes, I completely agree, what I'd posted is basically outdated information at this point. I'd assumed at the time simply switching 1 point to Deadeye to maintain the existing tree would be more effective, but it's better to take 2 points in Steady Focus and lose 1 point elsewhere vs taking Deadeye at all.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Lordofbelbol View Post
    How are some people happy about it xD i am not MM but wasn't this talent good for burst in m+/arena ?
    Yup. Essentially a mandatory pick and it being removed essentially guts us in PvP, for M+ it's not as big of a deal. BUT - it does feel terrible to use, and our entire spec only being viable because of 1 talent is a symptom of a much larger problem with the spec. Hopefully, this is just the first of many changes for MM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by ryan92084 View Post
    If trading out some burst gets us a deeper look I'm for it.
    What's with you guys and this copium lmao they just pushed out the DT removal and that's it. There's no "deeper look".

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzai View Post
    On the Deadeye stuff - yes, I completely agree, what I'd posted is basically outdated information at this point. I'd assumed at the time simply switching 1 point to Deadeye to maintain the existing tree would be more effective, but it's better to take 2 points in Steady Focus and lose 1 point elsewhere vs taking Deadeye at all.
    Well seems sims were a bit broken too and didn't sim Deadeye correctly. So it now seems the 2 point trade off is indeed too big, better go for Deadeye and keep the rough build the same indeed for M+

    Quote Originally Posted by Bepples View Post
    What's with you guys and this copium lmao they just pushed out the DT removal and that's it. There's no "deeper look".
    I'm not happy about it, but I'm not really sad either.
    DT for PvE was nice at times, but clunky in a lot of others. I will only miss it because it made MM opening burst huge, but overal it's a minor loss.

    DT for PvP was always a balance issue; at times it was needed for hunters to compete, but plenty of times it would just make hunter's able to 'one shot' out of stealth.
    Plenty of times in the past Blizzard had to adjust Aimed Shot just because there was the looming threat of DT AiS being too strong of a "single global burst".
    And in this expansion it became Rapid Fire, which although more counterable was still quite strong.

    There is indeed not a deeper look at the moment, but it seems they are doing regular updates this expansion.
    So if DT was one of the key components standing in the way of a proper hunter buff (like it has been in the past) AND they follow up on this nerf; than I'm not too sad about seeing it go.
    Last edited by Nythiz; 2023-01-25 at 01:38 PM.

  8. #28
    Yeah, I saw the updates and huge amount of discussion on it this morning.

    Works out this way -

    Deadeye and pretty similar tree to the existing one for M+, unless you're willing to sacrifice the utility of Wailing Arrow, or simply don't need it, in which case, points in Steady Focus are superior.

    For single target, Steady Focus builds outright win out, which makes sense over time.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzai View Post
    Yeah, I saw the updates and huge amount of discussion on it this morning.

    Works out this way -

    Deadeye and pretty similar tree to the existing one for M+, unless you're willing to sacrifice the utility of Wailing Arrow, or simply don't need it, in which case, points in Steady Focus are superior.

    For single target, Steady Focus builds outright win out, which makes sense over time.
    Which still feels terrible. With current CDR to AiS and RF, along with procs on both, you will often encounter a problem of having to not use a GCD for RF or AiS. This is a terrible feeling situation as you can’t use your primary, spec signature abilities in favor of keeping up a maintenance buff.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamais View Post
    Clueless posters here, but thanks to the crying PvE players we probably did get this change in the first place, because my globals.
    it was def removed because of pvp not pve lol. too many bads getting 1 shot because they cant react to DT. if the problem was just pve buttons they would have moved it to a pvp talent but they straight up deleted it.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Which still feels terrible. With current CDR to AiS and RF, along with procs on both, you will often encounter a problem of having to not use a GCD for RF or AiS. This is a terrible feeling situation as you can’t use your primary, spec signature abilities in favor of keeping up a maintenance buff.
    This happened with or without Double Tap though, you will reach points where you have to press steady just to gain any focus.

    The new ST setup means you will actually be pressing Aimed Shot and Rapid Fire more than you used to, because of Tactical Reload.

    There's never been a time when you only press AiS or RF, regardless.

  12. #32
    with double tap gone i hope you guys cant finally the changes that you guys need. removing double tap should really open the design space for mm. it was also annoying as fuck to play against. its like a rogue opener but you lose 80% of your hp from stealth on a ranged ability that you cant line once the cast starts

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzai View Post
    This happened with or without Double Tap though, you will reach points where you have to press steady just to gain any focus.

    The new ST setup means you will actually be pressing Aimed Shot and Rapid Fire more than you used to, because of Tactical Reload.

    There's never been a time when you only press AiS or RF, regardless.
    No, it didn’t. You used Steady Shot to gain focus if you were low and needed to cast something.
    The current design requires actively ignoring those abilities when ready to cast to maintain a buff regardless of where your focus is at.

    Previously, if you couldn’t cast AiS or AS due to focus issues, you would SS to build focus to be able to cast the signature ability. Now, you actively ignore it.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    No, it didn’t. You used Steady Shot to gain focus if you were low and needed to cast something.
    The current design requires actively ignoring those abilities when ready to cast to maintain a buff regardless of where your focus is at.

    Previously, if you couldn’t cast AiS or AS due to focus issues, you would SS to build focus to be able to cast the signature ability. Now, you actively ignore it.
    It's not ignoring it, it's a slight delay at best. Under normal play circumstances, you'll only have 1 aimed shot cast available most of the time, so there are going to be gaps in your rotation by default, where you can recast steady shots. Tactical Reload has reduced the amount of down time for AiS and RF, but the downtime still exists. Pressing Steady Shot an extra time every 13-15 seconds isn't the end of the world or something.

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