Leaving M+ group should give you DESERTER

[crusadernero]

You are right on the stereotype track by the way, first elitism, then random ramblings cause you got exposed as nothing but a terrible player.

Dont worry, you are still better than the LFR player and the pet battler.

But you still dont get an opinion about the game.

- - - Updated - - -



Dont forget, thats still is higher skilled based gaming.

What you are describing, isnt exactly that, its what i tend to call "swamp" or "cesspool" of WoW, you can follow it with the complains and in game keys, its where the mass of the population that is better, but not good enough, "evolves" together every season.

If you are caught in it as a pug, you have a miserable time, back when leveling took a bit longer, you could experience it with Heroics/Lockouts bla bla.

Now its the M+, a 16-20 with a decent group is 20 times easier than a 10-12 where the majority is stuck in.

True. I have now reached 1500 rating on my hunter and I gotta say, doing m+ is easier now than ever before. I decided before DF launch that I would finally do a serious attempt to push m+ rating, never bothered with it before really.

What I noticed is that 2-12 keys can be a shitshow, while most runs 12+ and above is "easier". Its been somewhat of a clusterfuck to reach 1500, but as I got above 1k it got easier and easier to find grps and clear the dungeons in time without issue.

I also know its a pain in the ass to start "late" with gearing up+get rating, so I pushed this hard in the beginning. Hard as I can with limited playtime. Got somewhat lucky with meeting some good players I did plenty of runs with during a saturday, that certainly boosted the rating.

[Zardas]

"I do irrelevant shit in a gear chasing game that they implemented so people like me spend their money and i think i am not a victim".

"Gear chasing game", you never stop right ?

[kosajk]

I've played probably 10s of thousands of key since Legion and I've seen people leave over the most stupidest of things a handful of times.

heh that bring me memory from late SL of a guy that pulled half instance to wipe group, it didynt worked so he gone afk for 5 mins and then came back started writing that we have allays in party and left ;P
we finished in time in group of 4 but it was been worth remembering ;P

[potis]

I also know its a pain in the ass to start "late" with gearing up+get rating, so I pushed this hard in the beginning. Hard as I can with limited playtime. Got somewhat lucky with meeting some good players I did plenty of runs with during a saturday, that certainly boosted the rating.

Which is the trick, obviously not always possible, but its the only way if you dont want to have a miserable time if you dont have others to play with.

Right now in the game, even 60-70 leveling dungeons are a massive pain with all these FOTM Warrior rerollers, they even somehow die, its almost impossible for your health to move at +15s unless you pull what 5 packs at a time with 10 casters in them or something, and these guys are somehow managing to die in a leveling dungeon.

[Barzotti]

heh that bring me memory from late SL of a guy that pulled half instance to wipe group, it didynt worked so he gone afk for 5 mins and then came back started writing that we have allays in party and left ;P
we finished in time in group of 4 but it was been worth remembering ;P

I saw a tank in a +10 not take the buff at the start of Algethar Academy, jump in a double pack alone, die because we were getting buffs and weren't in range, and blame me (the healer). Then he left before the first boss because one dps asked him to use his interrupt. Some people are really special.

[Nymrohd]

Is it the case ever that this kind of stuff isnt written by ppl who constantly deplete keys and just want to force others to stay? Even in the case u get deserter, people will still leave a group full of failures.

Which really shows that the issue is key depletion. People need to be able to leave. There is no reason for keys to ever be depleted. It was a weird decision by Blizzard when they made it in Legion and it still is weird now even after numerous improvements.

[Azharok]

If you leave the key as soon as you see that the key will not be timed or completed, you indeed "drop the group on the most miniscule fails". Timing or not completing a key is not a big deal.

So 10+ deaths in a run is miniscule fails ? I've timed (completed also) multiple keys with multiple deaths and wipes, because I knew we could time/complete them.

A miniscule fail would be tank pulling extra% count that isn't necessary, or dying to dumb trash. Some people leave over that. Some people leave over a wipe after a shroud skip because you can't time the key anymore, or after a lust you needed. Those are not miniscule fails either ...

You're playing 9s, that's fine, we do not speak the same language. The world of 15s isn't carebear land, the people don't need the gear badly enough to sit in a 2 hour long wipefest.

[Zardas]

So 10+ deaths in a run is miniscule fails ? I've timed (completed also) multiple keys with multiple deaths and wipes, because I knew we could time/complete them.

A miniscule fail would be tank pulling extra% count that isn't necessary, or dying to dumb trash. Some people leave over that. Some people leave over a wipe after a shroud skip because you can't time the key anymore, or after a lust you needed. Those are not miniscule fails either ...

My point is that not timing a key or even wiping it are no big deal, and definitely not reasons enough to rage quit the key.

You're playing 9s, that's fine, we do not speak the same language. The world of 15s isn't carebear land, the people don't need the gear badly enough to sit in a 2 hour long wipefest.

And there we go : the ridicule elitism... We both do m+, therefore we both can argue about m+, if an artificial limit has been specified in the context of this discussion feel free to inform me because I seems to have missed the memo.

The world of 15s isn't carebear land, the people don't need the gear badly enough to sit in a 2 hour long wipefest.

Just so you know, I obviously did 15s and above, and I had fun sitting in "2 hour long wipefest". Because I play to have fun, not to see my rating go up, you know, because I don't need this sort of validation to feel good about myself.

[Barzotti]

And there we go : the ridicule elitism... We both do m+, therefore we both can argue about m+, if an artificial limit has been specified in the context of this discussion feel free to inform me because I seems to have missed the memo.

It's not elitism. People doing +9 don't play the same game than people doing +15s. The same way I would be completely uninformed to talk about +23/24s even though I have KSM (not an impressive feat, I know). Its' like comparing LFR or Normal to Mythic raids and saying "we can both argue about the raids".

[Zardas]

It's not elitism. People doing +9 don't play the same game than people doing +15s. The same way I would be completely uninformed to talk about +23/24s even though I have KSM (not an impressive feat, I know). Its' like comparing LFR or Normal to Mythic raids and saying "we can both argue about the raids".

And where did OP specified which range of keys he was speaking about ? I was assuming we were speaking about all range of keys since I didn't saw any limits being specified.

[Barzotti]

And where did OP specified which range of keys he was speaking about ? I was assuming we were speaking about all range of keys since I didn't saw any limits being specified.

OP didn't specify a range of keys, true. However, when people are talking about M+, please do bear in mind that you have to think about brackets (lower than 10-10/15 etc) more than in absolutes.

[unbound]

I don't understand how there are no repercussions if someone leaves the M+ group (for various reasons) and messes up someone else's key.

In PvP if you leave nobody loses anything else but time and your spot can be replaced by someone else and you still get deserter, in M+ nothing.

Literally, nobody is trying in M+ anymore because they don't have to. If people would get a 30 minutes deserter for leaving an M+ group, people would try harder to finish a key even if it will be depleted or barely in time.

Is it just me, or?

I would say to stop hating the player and hate the game instead in this case.

Because of how the M+ system is set up (on a timer) people who join your group are impacted by the quality of the run. Some will simply not be interested unless you can +3 the key, others if you it can't be done in time in general, some concerned about the weekly chest, some about the IO rating (some may view an incomplete key as less of an issue than getting less than +3 on their rating to get into the next pug), and so forth.

This M+ system has at least as many problems as it has upsides to many players in the diminishing player base.

[Azharok]

My point is that not timing a key or even wiping it are no big deal, and definitely not reasons enough to rage quit the key.

They aren't a big deal, that's why I leave, it doesn't matter. I also do not quit in a fit of rage, stop assuming.

And there we go : the ridicule elitism... We both do m+, therefore we both can argue about m+, if an artificial limit has been specified in the context of this discussion feel free to inform me because I seems to have missed the memo.

We both do M+ sure, but you wont die to 90% of mechanics on a 9, you will in a 15. Hence we do not play the same game in a sense.

Just so you know, I obviously did 15s and above, and I had fun sitting in "2 hour long wipefest". Because I play to have fun, not to see my rating go up, you know, because I don't need this sort of validation to feel good about myself.

This season ? I had fun sitting in long ass keys with friends and guilds, and wiping countless times to raid bosses. Everyone is on voice chat, to get better at the game. I simply do not want to waste my time explaining stuff to strangers on the internet when more than half of the time the only response I'll get is "hurr durr, just pull and stfu".

Also, why are you ridiculing me over what I find fun in this game ? I like that my rating goes up, what's wrong with that ?

[Cerus]

It’s a rock and a hard place. Should there be some kind of system to punish abuse? Sure. But then that could potentially punish the innocent. At the very least, key depletion should go away.

I’ve had people bail after one minor trash pull screw up that would not have ruined the entire run and I’ve had people bail after their own major screw up on a boss mechanic. Those should probably come with some sort of debuff or -rating.

But I’m also not taking a punishment for a DPS who repeatedly butt pulls mobs in CoS causing wipes or the healer getting deleted because they can’t jump three times….THREE separate times.

There is really no practical way to implement any meaningful system that will stop the bad actors while not punishing the innocent. Especially when the dungeon is on a timer. You can’t sit around to take a vote.

It’s just a fact of pug life. I’ve had my own high keys ruined because DPS think they know better and pull extra mobs for % we didn’t need and attempt “tricks” without asking or saying a word.

Does it piss me off? Sure. But there isn’t a darn thing you can do about it other than run with a regular group.

[Zardas]

They aren't a big deal, that's why I leave, it doesn't matter. I also do not quit in a fit of rage, stop assuming.

But you leaving keys withouth trying to help players understanding what they did wrong is a big deal for those players, because they won't be able to improve if you keep doing that.

This season ? I had fun sitting in long ass keys with friends and guilds, and wiping countless times to raid bosses. Everyone is on voice chat, to get better at the game. I simply do not want to waste my time explaining stuff to strangers on the internet when more than half of the time the only response I'll get is "hurr durr, just pull and stfu".

Not this season no, not yet at least. And strangly I have a different experience where people are much more understanding when I talk with them. So either there is a vast difference in the players of our servers, or there is a difference in how we speak to others.

Also, why are you ridiculing me over what I find fun in this game ? I like that my rating goes up, what's wrong with that ?

If that's what is fun for you there is nothing wrong, as long as you keep in mind that not everyone have the same mindset.

[Stormwolf64]

I've played probably 10s of thousands of key since Legion and I've seen people leave over the most stupidest of things a handful of times.

Time to stop typing

[Piando]

if i enter a dungeon, and after reaching first boss 2 dps do less dmg together than tank, have dozen deaths for standing in shit each, and zero interupts, and i decide to leave, who is really screwing with someones key, me, or those two whou shouldnt even be there bcs its WELL beyond their skill?

thats the thing, if the "punishment" always hits the first person leaving, its not adressing the issue...

It seems like we have vastly different experiences with leavers. So far, people leaving my keys are either tanks who pull too much, wipe the party and then leave once you tell them they should slow down a little, or people who say they don't want to run depleted keys even though the group is perfectly capable of clearing the dungeon, just not in time. The latter leave a couple bosses into the run, wasting my and everyone else's time because we have no chance to get loot. Since you keep arguing how disrespectful bad players supposedly are, I think that what I just described is very rude.
Since there are many reasons to quit a run, I, like others before me, suggested a vote button to quit (you have the same in LoL, for example). And it's not really an issue if someone leaves a run early once every 50 runs or so, but I don't want people in my run who leave all the time to avoid depleted keys.

[Anzen]

Oh wow, this thread has got to 11 pages and still going.

I'm really not sure why people continue to feed Zardas.

As to actual basis of the thread, it's quite funny really, because while it is fun to argue these hypothetical scenarios and theoretical players ad nauseum, in reality it's a total non-issue.

I mean really, how many times have people genuinely had people leave keys purely out of spite? I can't even think of a time it has ever happened. So we consider the circumstances:

At one end -
It takes time and effort to get in a group, wait for it to be setup, fly to instance, get buffed, start the key, etc - it doesn't really make any sense or provide any benefit for someone to then leave randomly. You've got to assume the only reason someone would leave if nothing has happened, was if they had an irl emergency.

At the other end -
If a group is wiping relentlessly on everything and you'd be lucky to finish the run in 40 hours, let alone 40 minutes, I think we are mostly unanimous (perhaps not Zardas) that it is reasonable to leave the group.

So at both extremes, it feels sensible that players should not be punished for leaving - nor would the proposed punishment (e.g. a deserter debuff) have any impact on their decision to leave.

So this issue seems to be somewhere in the middle, and this is where it appears to be controversial. Under what conditions is it acceptable for someone to leave?

Some may answer if players are bad (and how bad is of course subjective), some may answer if the run won't be timed and some may even answer that it's never acceptable.

Everyone does M+ for different reasons, but the majority of people are doing it for gear, rating, or both - this should not be controversial. Due to this there is a big incentive to finishing the run in time - again, not controversial. I do not think it is unreasonable to drop a group that will not make a run in time - even if the other members were happy carrying on. Most runs I see are advertised as '15+' (or occassionally 15++, or 15+++) indicating it is timed, as opposed to an untimed run that should be advertised as '15' or even better '15 UNTIMED'.

I rarely use my own key, and I can't remember being devestated at having my key deranked... if I want to do AA 16 (for example), I'd join a group for it. As is now tradition, if we wipe on the tree boss with lust, the group will disband (though perhaps after reading this thread I should suggest staying and trying to kill it without lust?).

- - - Updated - - -

people who say they don't want to run depleted keys even though the group is perfectly capable of clearing the dungeon, just not in time. The latter leave a couple bosses into the run, wasting my and everyone else's time because we have no chance to get loot.

I mean you could argue just as easily that it's equally as selfish for the players wanting to loot expect a complete stranger to complete the run with them, when they might have only been in there for score (which is no longer possible if the key was badly depleted).

Since you keep arguing how disrespectful bad players supposedly are, I think that what I just described is very rude.
Since there are many reasons to quit a run, I, like others before me, suggested a vote button to quit (you have the same in LoL, for example). And it's not really an issue if someone leaves a run early once every 50 runs or so, but I don't want people in my run who leave all the time to avoid depleted keys.

I think it was the first post in this thread - you can't force people to boost you. Let's just say some 9000 IO tank joined and was annoyed that he was having to solo every boss because the DPS appeared to have their monitors off. The tank does a 'Vote to Quit' - suprise, suprise, the bad DPS have decided they actually quite like being boosted.

What do you think happens next, for £500:

a) The tank accepts the majority view, and silently clears the rest of the dugeon for the group while the DPS kick-back and type "yeah that's right b***h, do as you're told"
b) The tank 'accidently' pulls half the dungeon and keeps putting the group in combat (presumably you can't port out the dungeon as that defies the deserter debuff).
c) The tank mysteriously goes AFK, I wouldn't wait
d) The tank mysteriously goes offline for 5 minutes (unless you plan on giving anyone that disconnects deserter)?

If you said a), I've got some bad news for you.

You can't force people to boost.

[Loveliest]

Which really shows that the issue is key depletion. People need to be able to leave. There is no reason for keys to ever be depleted. It was a weird decision by Blizzard when they made it in Legion and it still is weird now even after numerous improvements.

I mean, might be. It's still wasted time. But. If deplition is not a thing, I might actually pug higher keys. Currently i only get pugs for keys I know I can personally carry even if my pug drops. I never pug my highest keys because I want to finish it for weekly. So while this might not address the issue in the op, it might make pugging a better option.

[Azharok]

But you leaving keys withouth trying to help players understanding what they did wrong is a big deal for those players, because they won't be able to improve if you keep doing that.

You learn in sub 10 keys, by the time you hit an 11, you should know mechanics, what to kick and what to dodge. I never implied I left small keys. I play all key levels (current max this season is 16 timed so not very high in my personal opinion), I know that I'll most likely top DPS in anything sub 10 even with the worse gear, I know that if a DPS dies on the pull for a boss, there is more than enough leeway to time it even 4 manning every boss. What I do not tolerate however is being berated and belittled and called all sorts of names when I leave a key (15s and up) where people clearly do not know their spec/kit/rotation and expect other people to carry them either consciously or not. You do not eat frontals in a 11s and up, you just can't, you will die, we need everyone alive to beat the timer/boss.