Leaving M+ group should give you DESERTER

[Tyris Flare]

But you leaving keys withouth trying to help players understanding what they did wrong is a big deal for those players, because they won't be able to improve if you keep doing that.

I think this is a world view difference.

Personally, life experience has taught me that people never get better at anything unless they want to, and most people don't want to. This applies to basically everything in life.

Can you teach someone a boss mechanic? Sure. Can you teach them a trick to do better DPS? Probably. But as a whole, that's basically all they'll learn. If they aren't already interested in getting better by now, a month into the patch, they almost certainly never will because they are part of a self-selected group that isn't self-motivated enough to learn in the first place.

You can say this is defeatist or cynical or whatever and that's fine, but if you look at the way companies hire and whatnot, it's pretty much validated there, too.

[Loveliest]

If you listen to this forum it happens all day every day. But honestly the people who squeal the most about this in my experience are the ones who also are quick to insult people on here over the smallest things, so my hunch is the problem is mostly with them and how they treat/act towards other players. My experience is very similar to yours. Sure sometimes someone bails after 1 wipe, or if we aren't gonna time. But it's not very often.

You forget bad experiences stick more than good ones. I still avoid pugging as much as possible because of some random mage back in Legion HoV who refused to dps in my pug because I, the tank, the leader if the grp and the one with the key, refused to give him lead. He said he gets kicked before the final boss so he refused to dps at wolf boss. I let him be after seeing he was still not moving after second to last boss, I had to kick him. We finished half the dungeon in 4. Also back in Legion started a key and the shaman healer dropped immediately after starting, didn't even get the chance to pull anything. And these two experiences soured pugs for me and now I avoid them like the plague, unless I really have no other choice or I know I can carry if the pug drops.

And I know what you'll say. Grow a ticker skin, you're a baby, it's not a big deal. But I don't wish to change as a person, I don't wish to become immune to crap when ppl can choose to change for the good themselves. So if there are ppl like me, they'll choose not to participate, contributing to the shortage of tanks etc. So, you might say good, we don't need ppl like that, but don't you? In the end if you end up with only a handful of ppl, what is left? The point is to make the game a good environment for everyone, not run everyone away. The more ppl participating, the better. So instead of finding fault with someone who wants something fixed, what is the point of telling them no? Would it affect you? If you never had bad experiences, then it wouldn't. Maybe deserter is not the best fix, but forums are supposed to be for brainstorming, for finding a better solution, not picking faults with the presented issue. Everyone's experience is different.

As a note, I feel like this is also a matter of time investment. If you have very limited time to do keys, you don't want a random to sour it for you and start over. Deplete and unfinished and then you have to do 2 instead of 1. While if you run keys 10hrs a day, not finishing a key probably means nothing. Join another and keep going. Ppl are different, nothing wrong with trying to make as many ppl as possible happy.

[Alroxas]

people intentionally gimping your key is toxic and needs to be addressed, however you have to distinguish players who make a slight effort and yet group can't handle the key.

How exactly would an "automated" system make this determination? There are players out there that don't realize how bad certain mechanics are until they encounter it at higher keys.

if a player leaves your group - keystone stays the same (no downgrade)
if a player deliberately leave or gimping your key - reduce HIS(!) keystone to the current run keystone minus one and add a 30 mins warning on raider.io so people will know which players to avoid.

First, how do you determine the difference between leaving a key and deliberately leaving? If you're saying that first person that bails gets the "punishment" - you do realize that players will then just adopt behaviors to force someone else to leave first. But that leads to "gimping" the key - but again the issue is how is it gimping? Is a player who is not performing at MDI levels "gimping" a key? Is a player who can't put out 100% of simcraft numbers, gimping the key? How about 80%? 50%? 20%?

There are players that perform their DPS rotations perfectly yet they don't interrupt, don't move from fire. Are these players "gimping" the key? There's too many subjective issues here that make this a non-option.

not a 100% proof solution, but it will largely reduce this behaviour.

here's a 100% fool proof solution - Only run keys with players you know and trust.

also, I would add a freeze-timer when a player leaves - provided that you could only replace to a similar or lower ilvl player (to avoid abusing and kicking higher ilvl players instead of the hand you we're originally dealt)

So then you're in favor of pay to win then? Take a group of high level and high skilled players, clear 98% of the dungeon, then have 1 to most of them leave to sub in a lower ilv player who can then claim to have done a +24 at ilv 300... Yeah that's a great HORRIBLE idea.

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why would they INTENTIONALY drop some1s key by leaving when the key goes i?

You'll have to search but there was a player (horde side) that intentionally does this. Especially back when you needed to complete +15 for KSM. In fact their r.io profile said something to the effect that somebody once left their key right after it was put in so now they have made it their mission to do the same to every PuG group they join.

I don't recall the specific player... I think it was a Tauren Warrior?

[Segus1992]

Blizzard just added consequences for leaving Solo Shuffle matches.

How is that different from M+?

Above all: Solo Shuffle is 10 minutes, a shitty M+ run can last over an hour. It's also a random group rather than all on the leader who invited everyone.

[Alroxas]

If leaving gives you deserter, then I'm alt + f4ing out.
If disconnecting gives you deserter, I'm just going afk.

Pretty much, every system that has been proposed to date to counter leavers has been found to be worse than the "problem" it's trying to fix because players would take even more toxic actions to counter the "punishment".

Edit - what needs to be done is make keys work like Diablo 3 keystone rifts, where you can just go in any level up to your highest unlocked. No downgrading keys, no punishment for inviting the wrong person.

Even this idea is bad because at what point do you simply "reset" a key if it didn't downgrade? Sure, if there's only 5 minutes left on the timer and you still have 2 bosses to clear that makes sense to reset but what about after 1 wipe (in some dungeons the run back is so long that you lose more time trying to get back)? Taken the extreme, some might even reset after 1 "giant" pull because some try-hard group is attempting to do a MDI level pull that they have no business doing.

[Anzen]

why would they INTENTIONALY drop some1s key by leaving when the key goes i?

You'll have to search but there was a player (horde side) that intentionally does this. Especially back when you needed to complete +15 for KSM. In fact their r.io profile said something to the effect that somebody once left their key right after it was put in so now they have made it their mission to do the same to every PuG group they join.

I don't recall the specific player... I think it was a Tauren Warrior?

Haha I rember this!! His name was Jolex-Draenor (EU)

https://www.icy-veins.com/forums/top...-previous-run/

(includes links to reddit and official forums to when this exploded).

[Alroxas]

M+ Ragequitters should be punished, but only keyholder should be able to report since the biggest offence is his time + key depletion.

So instead of rage quitting, these players will then sabotage the rest of the run. How do you feel about that then? And it can run the range of suddenly being stupid (i.e. Oops I stood in the frontal cleave) to incredibly intentional (i.e. Let's pull that extra pack that is unnecessary).

Moreover they can be super obvious about it or "fake" it. Sorry I was running out of thundering and somehow ended up body pulling that extra pack.

How do you determine malice versus just being dumb?

• Leave the group after 1 wipe with like less than 5 deaths and still 30minutes out of 35minutes timer left? REPORT + DESERTED
• Leaving key because is gonna be depleted no matter + 50 deaths + still more than 1 boss up? FORFEIT

So purposely die over and over again to be able to "force" a key to be forfeit. Yup that sounds like an even worse plan since that means players will be stuck for at least 30 minutes of purposely watching the "rage quitter" cause deaths instead of just leaving and everybody moving on to the next key.

[Relapses]

I think not finishign a key should give -1 to the key of everyone in the dungeon. That way people are invested to finish.

This is a phenomenally terrible idea. It would increase toxicity tenfold and people wouldn't join a key unless they were certain it'd be timed.

[Okacz]

So instead of rage quitting, these players will then sabotage the rest of the run. How do you feel about that then? And it can run the range of suddenly being stupid (i.e. Oops I stood in the frontal cleave) to incredibly intentional (i.e. Let's pull that extra pack that is unnecessary).

Moreover they can be super obvious about it or "fake" it. Sorry I was running out of thundering and somehow ended up body pulling that extra pack.

How do you determine malice versus just being dumb?



So purposely die over and over again to be able to "force" a key to be forfeit. Yup that sounds like an even worse plan since that means players will be stuck for at least 30 minutes of purposely watching the "rage quitter" cause deaths instead of just leaving and everybody moving on to the next key.

Sounds like a good solution would be to make an asshole leaving the group in the middle not that big of an issue. Remove depletion system so you can redo the key normally, maybe make the timers less about the "gogogo" race (so tryhards won't leave once they waste 2 minutes too much on a fucking manawyrm). Maybe allow replacing people mid run, with some minor systems to make a bad idea to exploit that fact? Don't think the world would end there.

Look M+ are great, but the mentality required to play them both encourages asshole behaviour (people who leave immediately once they see the group isn't good enough are actually FAVOURED by the system, as they win by wasting less time and aren't punished at all), and tends to scare off new players, who don't even get to understand why they are slaughtering all those poor pandas in the Temple.

[Lolites]

Just so you know, I obviously did 15s and above, and I had fun sitting in "2 hour long wipefest". Because I play to have fun, not to see my rating go up, you know, because I don't need this sort of validation to feel good about myself.

yeah, and you just assume that if its fun for YOU it have to be fun for everybody else... how full of yourself are you ffs?

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There is really no practical way to implement any meaningful system that will stop the bad actors while not punishing the innocent.

not only that, but assholes will be first to "adapt" and learn how to missuse the system to their advantage, so it will punish innocent most of the time...

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If you listen to this forum it happens all day every day. But honestly the people who squeal the most about this in my experience are the ones who also are quick to insult people on here over the smallest things, so my hunch is the problem is mostly with them and how they treat/act towards other players. My experience is very similar to yours. Sure sometimes someone bails after 1 wipe, or if we aren't gonna time. But it's not very often.

pretty much on spot, i had to write it thousand times on mmoc but ill do it again - with how few toxic people i encountered over 18 years, im 100% sure if someone constantly runs into toxicity he is the very reason for it...
whining about punishing leavers is pretty much the same - people constantly leave your group? well how about thinking WHY instead of trying to bully them into carrying you...

[Zardas]

yeah, and you just assume that if its fun for YOU it have to be fun for everybody else... how full of yourself are you ffs?

I know that it was fun because I was communicating with the other 4 guys, and they seemed to have quit a lot of fun too. Do you think that none of them would have quit if they didn't had fun ?

[Twdft]

My point is that not timing a key or even wiping it are no big deal, and definitely not reasons enough to rage quit the key.

Depends on how the run was advertised.

The other day I got into a +12 HoV, tank a bit undergeared but with main score of 2500, advertised as "fast run" and I mentally prepared for a smooth ride. He then pulled the first two mobs alone.

Another day another +12 HoV with an overgeared tank going "let's 2chest this I will pull all trash before first boss just misdirect me". He then rode his fucking mount to the third trash pack.

Both times I knew the run would not be timed before pushing my first button. But I was on my trash hunter only there for the focus so I went on with it to watch what happens. First was very pleasant although untimed, second had both my fellow dps die before the tank stopped riding because they started blasting immediately. Run was also not timed as predicted because tank did other stupid stuff too. Should have left...

[sponge5307]

or blizzard should do something like a debt collection type of punishment.

Say you are in a +15 key for HoV you left. Well now you are are no going to get any io socre increase or even a m+ counted towards your great vault. When you need to do clear yourself is to run another +15 for HoV once you sitck around and clear it then you are out of the red and the next m+ you do can increase3 your io and count towards your great vault.

If you left 5 dungeons well then you are going to have to make up 5 dungeons with the exact key level and the dungeon you left. This teach players not to leave and if they do the punishment is pretty harsh.

Much like a bank isn't going to loan you anymore money if you don't pay your old debt that you didn't pay on time. Only way they might let you borrow you again is if you pay off your debt.

Or blizzard can update their io or some of the warning that shows how many keys you left per week when you apply for a group. So people can decide if it is worth the risk to invite you.

[Barzotti]

or blizzard should do something like a debt collection type of punishment.

Say you are in a +15 key for HoV you left. Well now you are are no going to get any io socre increase or even a m+ counted towards your great vault. When you need to do clear yourself is to run another +15 for HoV once you sitck around and clear it then you are out of the red and the next m+ you do can increase3 your io and count towards your great vault.

If you left 5 dungeons well then you are going to have to make up 5 dungeons with the exact key level and the dungeon you left. This teach players not to leave and if they do the punishment is pretty harsh.

Much like a bank isn't going to loan you anymore money if you don't pay your old debt that you didn't pay on time. Only way they might let you borrow you again is if you pay off your debt.

Or blizzard can update their io or some of the warning that shows how many keys you left per week when you apply for a group. So people can decide if it is worth the risk to invite you.

That's one of the dumbest posts I've ever read on this site. Your "solutions" are a sure way to discourage people from doing M+ at all. You have 30 deaths before the first boss? Congrats, you're trapped with the group and are punished if you want to leave by having to do the same dungeon again.

And how do you implement that for M+ pushers? They brick let's say a +24 HoV on the first pull, they have to run it again to get rewards? How do you know if someone ragequit or if the whole group decided to stop running the key? How do you know if the leaver had legitimate reasons to leave or not?

[Alroxas]

It’s a rock and a hard place. Should there be some kind of system to punish abuse? Sure. But then that could potentially punish the innocent. At the very least, key depletion should go away.

Removal of key depletion has it's own issues. Basically how/when do people reset? There's a danger of degenerative gameplay if you can constantly reset without penalty.

Does it piss me off? Sure. But there isn’t a darn thing you can do about it other than run with a regular group.

Honestly short of a regular group, the key would be communication. Make sure that the group goals and each individual's goals are the same. Mismatching goals is going to cause more problems and increases the chance that the run will be abandoned at the first signs of trouble.

[Lolites]

That's one of the dumbest posts I've ever read on this site. Your "solutions" are a sure way to discourage people from doing M+ at all. You have 30 deaths before the first boss? Congrats, you're trapped with the group and are punished if you want to leave by having to do the same dungeon again.

And how do you implement that for M+ pushers? They brick let's say a +24 HoV on the first pull, they have to run it again to get rewards? How do you know if someone ragequit or if the whole group decided to stop running the key? How do you know if the leaver had legitimate reasons to leave or not?

you speak as if people like him want solution, they dont, they want to bully people to give them free carries...

[Barzotti]

you speak as if people like him want solution, they dont, they want to bully people to give them free carries...

Yep. Generally, people who want to punish others want to get carried. I've pugged a lot of keys since Legion and people ragequitting keys are very rare in my experience. I don't mind people leaving when the key won't be timed.

[Jester Joe]

It's not elitism. People doing +9 don't play the same game than people doing +15s. The same way I would be completely uninformed to talk about +23/24s even though I have KSM (not an impressive feat, I know). Its' like comparing LFR or Normal to Mythic raids and saying "we can both argue about the raids".

You absolutely can still though.

The only actual mechanics difference between a 9 and a 15 is the thundering affix. Now I know people are going to get all up in arms about a statement like that, but it is true.

There's no new casts introduced, there's no new mobs added, no new boss abilities, nothing.

The only things added is thundering and more punishment for missing interrupts and ignoring abilities. That doesn't mean someone who's running a +9 won't know "oh I need to kick x", it just means that if they miss it it won't cause a wipe. And sure, theres more players being lazy around that bracket, but that again, doesn't mean someone can't possibly know because they've only ran a 9.

And that's the crux of the issue there, which is what I was trying to get at from the start that seemed to be missed, is people are far too quick to judge by the front cover instead of the actual knowledge someone has. Because I guess it's easier on the internet to dismiss someone with an insult than to actually hear what they have to say.

Raiding isn't a fair comparison because new mechanics are actually added, but you're making it sound like every caster for every event needs to be a professional who also participates in the sport.

[munkeyinorbit]

If you leave the key as soon as you see that the key will not be timed or completed, you indeed "drop the group on the most miniscule fails". Timing or not completing a key is not a big deal.



You and I have that reflex to go back to a lower level, train yourself to become better, but many player don't have it. And they will never get it if you keep just leaving them full of shame

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Where are my sources ? Multiple people that had no idea what to do, that I helped and they eventually became better at the game (not godlike, far from it, but better).

And seriously ? "I don't need to" ?

Oh. I see. The credible "trust me, bro" source. The evidence points to you actually lying about "coaching" others as I suspected.

Your whole argument is based on your assertion that staying and coaching is better than leaving a key. Since the evidence is that there is no coaching at all, then it's just a waste of time. That means that if you don't leave the group you are actually doing the wrong thing.

[Zardas]

Oh. I see. The credible "trust me, bro" source. The evidence points to you actually lying about "coaching" others as I suspected.

Your whole argument is based on your assertion that staying and coaching is better than leaving a key. Since the evidence is that there is no coaching at all, then it's just a water of time. That means that if you don't leave the group you are actually doing the wrong thing.

Really, you can't even envision that you can be wrong so you resort to calling me a liar ? Do you want me to send you my Battle net friendlist so you can check by yourself ?