Leaving M+ group should give you DESERTER

[Alroxas]

Slow down a min and think why people here don't want any form of punishment at all for leaving a group. Could it be they are the ones doing it and you suggesting giving them even a tiny bit of punishment will expose them and make the game, not as fun for them?

Or is it because they used critical thinking and thought through what those "punishment" systems would likely cause as a by-product?

Consider the various scenarios:

Currently, Bob doesn't like the run (for whatever reason) and leaves. Yeah the group "wasted" X amount of time and the key is gone. Individual members go find another group.

System A: Punishes first player that leaves or DC. Bob doesn't like the run but doesn't want the punishment. Now Bob continues to "waste" the rest of the groups time by making DAMN sure it's going to go as long as possible until someone else leaves and Bob can now leave without a negative mark on his account. So instead of just wasting X time, you're now looking at X+Y time but now it involves everyone.

System B: Uses some form of voting to either abandon or stop the run. Again if Bob doesn't like the run AND he's in the minority then he can still make things more difficult until another vote is held.

System C: Some form of being able to replace a member that leaves. Now instead of worrying about leavers, you get a different issue that M+ turns into a carry fest. Do the dungeon with the first team but save the last 1% (or less) of trash left, switch out members for the carries then finish.

Still haven't seen any good robust "punishment" system that has automated safeguards against exploiting or gaming the "punishment" system.


And as a counterpoint, Blizzard HAS provided "carrot" incentives to stick around. Going slightly over time (less that 40% of timer) still gives points towards score. Loot still drops at End of Dungeon chest (albeit one will have lower ilv) and finishing dungeon still counts for weekly Great Vault.

[Azharok]

Like someone just tried to dismiss that because "it was a +5

I wasn't trying to dismiss that the key being a +5 made it okay to leave the key, more the fact that the healer thought that they couldn't finish based on the damage the tank took, had the healer pressed more buttons I'm sure they would've been able to finish even with less than a competent tank. Hell you could probably have a warlock pet tank bosses and trash.

My general thought process was also more close to : I'd rather not they implemented a punishment system for what happens in small keys (sub 15s) that would cover all key levels.

[Tarba]

Hmm would seem fair. And also being forbidden to use the group search if it's repeated.

And to all pseudo pro gamers but actual pro leavers, who will gladly say here "if you are not invited in m+ groups play with friends", well "if you don't want repercussion for leaving a m+, play with friends".

I don't play the game anymore but when you play with other people not every thing is about you.

[Anzen]

You nailed the point with the * part.

Casuals usually play dps for obvious reasons (solo open world performances). Dps have a really hard time in entering M+ due to the vast majority of players (both casuals and not casuals) being dps too. Often a failed run means a wasted session, especially if as I said sessions are short.

Notice that I have no problems with that, but please let’s stop pretending that M+ is casual friendly.

I think you're making a rod for your own back.

While I agree that it is more convenient, I do not agree with the suggestion that casuals are effectively left with no choice but to play DPS, for two main reasons:

1) You can change easily change specialization in the game (you could quest as DPS and dungeon as a healer). In a lot of cases, you can use the same gear.
2) It is not essential to be DPS for 'solo open world performances' (which I'm assuming means world quests). I don't even bother changing spec anymore as I do more than enough damage as resto. Similarly on a tank you can pull multiple mobs and AoE them down.

This isn't me guessing what it's like, I could probably be classed as a casual (I play maybe an hour or two a day). Rampant competition and queue times for DPS is widely known.

You can either take the short straight road, which is always filled with traffic because everyone goes that way, or you can take the slightly longer road that is usually empty because no-one makes the effort to look elsewhere, and ultimately arrive at your destination much quicker. Sure it'll take a little while to learn the route, but once you have invested the time and effort, it's well worth it.

Seperately, if you play a mage/rogue/hunter/warlock and wouldn't consider re-rolling, then you have to make peace with the fact that you will struggle to get into groups unless you are a meta spec with a high IO score.

Unfortunately there's little incentive except queue times to play a tank/healer, and it is an entirely thankless task with higher responsibility - you will get blamed, and you will probably cause a wipe if you die. A DPS by contrast can get one-shot on a boss, maybe chuck a "heals???" in chat for good measure, and you will still kill the boss no problem.

"let's stop pretending that M+ is casual friendly." - personally, I think this is victim mentality here. It is a bit like that comic skit where the guy is cycling a bike, puts a stick between the spokes and then after falling off blames something arbitary - then caption each scene "DPS queue times are really long", "plays DPS" and "M+ is not casual friendly".

Many casual players play M+ at a relatively high level (including myself). In fact I would go so far as saying the release of M+ was one of the best things for the casual player - previously high level gear only dropped from raids.

[potis]

You nailed the point with the * part.

Casuals usually play dps for obvious reasons (solo open world performances). Dps have a really hard time in entering M+ due to the vast majority of players (both casuals and not casuals) being dps too. Often a failed run means a wasted session, especially if as I said sessions are short.

Notice that I have no problems with that, but please let’s stop pretending that M+ is casual friendly.

Which is so amusing to read.

Play some shitty DPS class while also playing with less gear as a self proclaimed casual and take a few minutes to complete something with danger at some of the rares.

Or play an unkillable tank class, that can pull 20 mobs even at low gear levels and cleave them all down and finish a quest in 30 seconds, solo everything the open world has to offer, rares or whatever, albeit slightly longer than you would if you had more DPS, but we both know the average player does not play their class at that level to do it comfortably.

It always baffles me how clueless most people can be, it was so obvious on Wrathion farming as an example, watching someone pull 1-2 elites barely and tryhard it, pull 15 elites and cleave them down while my health moved to 98% 3 times in the minute it took to kill them.

M+ also was never meant to be casual anything, it literally exists, in Blizzards own words, because "People complained that after raid nights they wanna play more but had no reason to", as it evolved into what its shaped to today.

[Nite92]

Basically at the first remote sign the timer will be missed, 9 on 10 someone will leave.

Seen that countless times when I m+ed.

This isn’t “bad” per se and is somehow understandable but into the PUG environment it becomes “dramatic” because of the well know reasons.

Why do people always have to give ass pull numbers? This just makes your argument look so much worse.

I have a main at 2.75k r.io with a premade, but I also have 3 alts in the 1.7 to 2.4k region. I mostly pug on my alts, with only sometimes having guildie on his alt. People do very rarely leave in my alt keys if it is only overtime by a bit, i.e., the key is played reasonably. Mostly people leave if you accumulate 19 deaths before the first boss. Thats my experience from roughly 350 keys this expacs.
(Although my experience might be biased, because I am a tank main, and have much more control over a dungeon than a dps/heal).

[potis]

Mostly people leave if you accumulate 19 deaths before the first boss.

Its not even the deaths, its like when you are in a group on an alt, with people that are supposely scored for the content they wanna do, and the tank or yourself as a tank does something like a 7 mob pull.

And number 1 DPS does expected damage, and the other two are doing 20% of number 1, with something like a class that should be doing even more than Number 1 DPS, and you go "Yeah maybe they saved CDs, they dont know the tank, bla bla" some excuse in your mind.

Next pull the same, and the pull after that the same, S1 DPS on S3 content as exmaple.

And then suddenly at boss, first boss ability and one useless DPS dies.

Yeah i wont leave cause its some shitty low key on the alt and i couldnt care less, just weekly, but fucking hell, how is everyone so bad.

Obviously for myself that my precondition is "weekly and who gives a fuck" once every other new moon, it doesnt affect me as such, but i would imagine someone that sees that more often, eventually they would say "Fuck you guys" and disappear.

[Ludek]

I started wondering how big the leavers problem really is.

Yesterday I finished my lazy journey to get KSM, did 45 dungeons total, only 3 had leavers. One one supposedly a DC, one was a dead key (20+ deaths on CoS first boss), the last one was actually pretty weird - a hunter asspulled an extra pack in the beginning of RLP, they killed him, we killed the pack easily, timer was not even that affected by the extra pull, yet he still left for some unknown reason.

Was I just lucky, or the problem is not as big as all the threads are presenting?

[Azharok]

I started wondering how big the leavers problem really is.

Yesterday I finished my lazy journey to get KSM, did 45 dungeons total, only 3 had leavers. One one supposedly a DC, one was a dead key (20+ deaths on CoS first boss), the last one was actually pretty weird - a hunter asspulled an extra pack in the beginning of RLP, they killed him, we killed the pack easily, timer was not even that affected by the extra pull, yet he still left for some unknown reason.

Was I just lucky, or the problem is not as big as all the threads are presenting?

It's likely confirmation bias, they are likely doing something dumb or not pulling their weight, someone in the group just leaves cauz he cba, and then complain that there's this massive leaver problem.

[chiddie]

I think you're making a rod for your own back.

While I agree that it is more convenient, I do not agree with the suggestion that casuals are effectively left with no choice but to play DPS, for two main reasons:

1) You can change easily change specialization in the game (you could quest as DPS and dungeon as a healer). In a lot of cases, you can use the same gear.
2) It is not essential to be DPS for 'solo open world performances' (which I'm assuming means world quests). I don't even bother changing spec anymore as I do more than enough damage as resto. Similarly on a tank you can pull multiple mobs and AoE them down.

This isn't me guessing what it's like, I could probably be classed as a casual (I play maybe an hour or two a day). Rampant competition and queue times for DPS is widely known.

You can either take the short straight road, which is always filled with traffic because everyone goes that way, or you can take the slightly longer road that is usually empty because no-one makes the effort to look elsewhere, and ultimately arrive at your destination much quicker. Sure it'll take a little while to learn the route, but once you have invested the time and effort, it's well worth it.

Seperately, if you play a mage/rogue/hunter/warlock and wouldn't consider re-rolling, then you have to make peace with the fact that you will struggle to get into groups unless you are a meta spec with a high IO score.

Unfortunately there's little incentive except queue times to play a tank/healer, and it is an entirely thankless task with higher responsibility - you will get blamed, and you will probably cause a wipe if you die. A DPS by contrast can get one-shot on a boss, maybe chuck a "heals???" in chat for good measure, and you will still kill the boss no problem.

"let's stop pretending that M+ is casual friendly." - personally, I think this is victim mentality here. It is a bit like that comic skit where the guy is cycling a bike, puts a stick between the spokes and then after falling off blames something arbitary - then caption each scene "DPS queue times are really long", "plays DPS" and "M+ is not casual friendly".

Many casual players play M+ at a relatively high level (including myself). In fact I would go so far as saying the release of M+ was one of the best things for the casual player - previously high level gear only dropped from raids.

Maybe something changed for healers this Xpac but in SL my experience with using a healer for ow content was just slightly above miserable. Yes, you can kill stuff… taking 10x time whatever dps.

Tanks in ow are awesome for elite quests if you wanna solo them but for any other type of quests they are slower than whatever dps. How do I know? I play Arms warrior and when I forget to switch back to it from Prot after having done an elite quest I immediately notice the difference.

Again, I speak ONLY for myself but whatever content is not “boom I’m in” or has not an auto-queue that lets me do other stuff while in queue is non-casual content.

I have 1 hour sessions and I won’t waste them queuing “and nothing (or little) more”. My definition of “casual” is tied with time, not with difficulty.

[Rageonit]

I'd be all for a deserter debuff or other penalty if it was something you can opt out of. In short, when you create a group, you need to decide if it's "penalty free" or not; and when you invite anyone: 1) the invited player is informed what type of run it is; 2) the inviting player can't change rules anymore. You can give players even more options: time thresholds you can set or other stuff like that, so you're not penalized if you leave an overtime key or whatever.

Rest is down to players. Don't like to waste time in carry groups? Make & join non-penalized runs. Don't like leavers? Make & join penalized runs. Can't see any other option to make both sides happy.

[Anzen]

Maybe something changed for healers this Xpac but in SL my experience with using a healer for ow content was just slightly above miserable. Yes, you can kill stuff… taking 10x time whatever dps.

Tanks in ow are awesome for elite quests if you wanna solo them but for any other type of quests they are slower than whatever dps. How do I know? I play Arms warrior and when I forget to switch back to it from Prot after having done an elite quest I immediately notice the difference.

Again, I speak ONLY for myself but whatever content is not “boom I’m in” or has not an auto-queue that lets me do other stuff while in queue is non-casual content.

I have 1 hour sessions and I won’t waste them queuing “and nothing (or little) more”. My definition of “casual” is tied with time, not with difficulty.

I would encourage you to actually try playing a healer then, my healer does about 20k DPS. As potis says, playing as tank is also good for wquests because you can pull more mobs than you could get away with as DPS. It also takes 5 seconds to change spec if I was that bothered.

If you have decided that matchmade content = casual and premade content = not casual then that is your prerogative. Personally, my defintion of casual is loosely content that does not take much time or commitment to achieve - which includes premade content.

I would again have to refer back to my victim mentality comment - if you only have 1 hour play sessions, then surely it's in your interests to explore ways to reduce your time spent queueing? It is not difficult to clear a mythic dungeon consistently in one hour. This is a you problem unfortunately - as I said earlier, like you, I'm also limited by the time I can play.

You could play prot (probably the best tank at the moment...) and be in groups quicker than you can blink - yet you choose not to. Doing nothing is a choice.

I'd genuinely love to herpa-derp DPS without a care in the world every season, but I can't stomach the queue times. The difference between me and you is I have done something about it whereas you come up with arbitary excuses about how it's mandatory to be DPS all the time because 'solo open world performances'. If you don't want to do Mythics, say that, but let's stop pretending that M+ is not casual friendly.

[Araitik]

I started wondering how big the leavers problem really is.

Yesterday I finished my lazy journey to get KSM, did 45 dungeons total, only 3 had leavers. One one supposedly a DC, one was a dead key (20+ deaths on CoS first boss), the last one was actually pretty weird - a hunter asspulled an extra pack in the beginning of RLP, they killed him, we killed the pack easily, timer was not even that affected by the extra pull, yet he still left for some unknown reason.

Was I just lucky, or the problem is not as big as all the threads are presenting?

I've only ever had 1 true leaver this season, a hunter (obviously) left for no reason.
Other times, we just all agreed the key was dead (it happens) and all left with no incident.

It's likely confirmation bias, they are likely doing something dumb or not pulling their weight, someone in the group just leaves cauz he cba, and then complain that there's this massive leaver problem.

Spot on.

- Bad player A invites others and messes up during key (dies too much, low DPS / HPS, bad tanking, whatever)
- Other players realize and leave the key because they realize how bad player A is
- Repeat step 1 and 2 until player A goes to the forum to complain about people leaving
- Make sure player A never aknowledges his own flaws or question themselves whatsoever

When you have a problem with everyone, you are the problem.

[Lolites]

Was I just lucky, or the problem is not as big as all the threads are presenting?

its not as big, its just some people cant comprehend they are causing others to leave so it seems to them its a big problem, when in fact THEY are the problem

[Nymrohd]

I wonder, would it help if you had to search dungeons in LFG by goal (Standard, Completion, Beat Timer)? That would better help people self segregate.

[Alroxas]

I wonder, would it help if you had to search dungeons in LFG by goal (Standard, Completion, Beat Timer)? That would better help people self segregate.

I think the issue is that we would need to have the community accept certain "standards" for each goal. What line is drawn for those goals? For instance, under completion is there an upper limit (if any) on how long the run can go for or is it reasonable to say after 2x Timer length it's ok to leave?

Flipping over to "Beat Timer", how far along do the dungeon should players expect to stay before it's bail time? Some dungeons are so inflexible with timing that a wipe is highly likely to lead to not beating the timer whereas other dungeons (SBG) are incredibly more forgiving with their timer.

[Anzen]

I wonder, would it help if you had to search dungeons in LFG by goal (Standard, Completion, Beat Timer)? That would better help people self segregate.

I think the issue is that we would need to have the community accept certain "standards" for each goal. What line is drawn for those goals? For instance, under completion is there an upper limit (if any) on how long the run can go for or is it reasonable to say after 2x Timer length it's ok to leave?

Flipping over to "Beat Timer", how far along do the dungeon should players expect to stay before it's bail time? Some dungeons are so inflexible with timing that a wipe is highly likely to lead to not beating the timer whereas other dungeons (SBG) are incredibly more forgiving with their timer.

Indeed, this was my first thought also. It's not even that they're necessarily bad concepts, it's just if something can be abused, it will be.

I don't know how it would be possible to qualify at what specific point a run will be untimed. What if different people have different views on whether the run can be timed or not after a wipe? If runs can be left if someone unilaterally decides the run can not be timed, then we're essentially at the same place we are now - but creating a group requires the extra step of ticking the box "timed". People are already able to advertise 'vault' or 'untimed' runs so this doesn't solve any problem.

Plus, a person creating a group also knows if he wants the strongest candidates, he probably needs to list the run as 'timed' - even if they personally would be happy to finish the run regardless.

In this sense, we're all hypocrites. While we may all complain at some point that you have to 420ilvl with an io of 3000+ to get into a group, we are all simultaneously guilty of inviting the most geared, high IO people when forming our own groups (though I understand there may be a ceiling to this, and some people avoid inviting exceptionally high IO people in fear they'll drop group at the first death).

[Nymrohd]

Indeed, this was my first thought also. It's not even that they're necessarily bad concepts, it's just if something can be abused, it will be.

I don't know how it would be possible to qualify at what specific point a run will be untimed. What if different people have different views on whether the run can be timed or not after a wipe? If runs can be left if someone unilaterally decides the run can not be timed, then we're essentially at the same place we are now - but creating a group requires the extra step of ticking the box "timed". People are already able to advertise 'vault' or 'untimed' runs so this doesn't solve any problem.

Plus, a person creating a group also knows if he wants the strongest candidates, he probably needs to list the run as 'timed' - even if they personally would be happy to finish the run regardless.

In this sense, we're all hypocrites. While we may all complain at some point that you have to 420ilvl with an io of 3000+ to get into a group, we are all simultaneously guilty of inviting the most geared, high IO people when forming our own groups (though I understand there may be a ceiling to this, and some people avoid inviting exceptionally high IO people in fear they'll drop group at the first death).

The simple fact is, when multiple people apply to your group, why would you pick someone with a lower score?
One thing I wonder is if increased transparency would help. By this I mean, when you were looking at groups in LFG, what if you could see the score of individual members? Not the group's average; that would make things even worse imo (since you would then be actively disincentivized from inviting low score people). Then all the leavers who blame everyone else for joining a poor group will be able to . . . not join a poor group in the first place.

[Anzen]

The simple fact is, when multiple people apply to your group, why would you pick someone with a lower score?
One thing I wonder is if increased transparency would help. By this I mean, when you were looking at groups in LFG, what if you could see the score of individual members? Not the group's average; that would make things even worse imo (since you would then be actively disincentivized from inviting low score people). Then all the leavers who blame everyone else for joining a poor group will be able to . . . not join a poor group in the first place.

Of course, while ilvl & io is not a guarantee, it is the best indication of skill we have. I made my comment in reference to the frustrations people vent that they can't get into groups because they don't a very high IO or ilvl - yet simultaneously only invite people with very high IO or ilvl to their own groups.

I mean I like this idea, it's a QoL improvement and potentially might lead to less people leaving after a run has started.

The amount of times I join a group for a +16 SBG or something, advertised by a 2.7k prot warrior - to quickly realise he's trying to carry two DPS guildies who are both 800io in half blues with no enchants. Totally unnecessary, there should be ways to see who is in a group before joining.

I feel sorry for DPS who spend 30 minutes trying to get in a group, to then find out the group is made up of their friends coming along for a boost.

[Alroxas]

Of course, while ilvl & io is not a guarantee, it is the best indication of skill we have. I made my comment in reference to the frustrations people vent that they can't get into groups because they don't a very high IO or ilvl - yet simultaneously only invite people with very high IO or ilvl to their own groups.

To be fair, as a party leader, it's best to "stack" the odds in the party's favor as much as possible. So those considerations (i.e. High M+ score, high ilv, 2/4pc, high # dungeons completed in X bracket) are a factor which indeed does make it horrible for some players who didn't grind at the beginning of the season or are stuck in a non-meta class.

The amount of times I join a group for a +16 SBG or something, advertised by a 2.7k prot warrior - to quickly realise he's trying to carry two DPS guildies who are both 800io in half blues with no enchants. Totally unnecessary, there should be ways to see who is in a group before joining.

Alternatively, before entering the dungeon and starting the run, do a quick inspection of the party. Honestly I'm a bit surprised there isn't a Weak Aura or addon that can summarize the group details.