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  1. #41
    Bloodsail Admiral Femininity's Avatar
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    Leavers are pretty common in lower-mid keys, especially toward the start of a dungeon. Tank unga bunga pulls? Leaver. Tank pulls too slowly? Leaver. Someone doing relatively low damage on the first couple of pulls? Leaver. Someone repeatedly stands in bad and dies? Leaver. Someone says something snarky? Leaver. There is a multitude of reasons why people leave. The biggest being? True pugs (5 total randos) have zero social obligation/burden, so leaving has zero consequence. I've left Algethar Academy multiple times after it was clear the tree boss wasn't going to happen. Why waste your time? I do about 400 runs a season. I'd say an easy 10-15% of those have leavers.
    Remember: Words are not violence.
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  2. #42
    should get deserter and minus rio score on that dungeon

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Femininity View Post
    Leavers are pretty common in lower-mid keys, especially toward the start of a dungeon. Tank unga bunga pulls? Leaver. Tank pulls too slowly? Leaver. Someone doing relatively low damage on the first couple of pulls? Leaver. Someone repeatedly stands in bad and dies? Leaver. Someone says something snarky? Leaver. There is a multitude of reasons why people leave. The biggest being? True pugs (5 total randos) have zero social obligation/burden, so leaving has zero consequence. I've left Algethar Academy multiple times after it was clear the tree boss wasn't going to happen. Why waste your time? I do about 400 runs a season. I'd say an easy 10-15% of those have leavers.
    People fail to look for a solution because like I said, most of the people commenting here are the leavers.

    And in a world where a**holes are predominant, it makes sense.

    So I rest my case.

    There is no saving the human race! )

  4. #44
    If you really want them to do something, better solution would be to remove key downgrade as a punishment for failing.

    Then if you get the leaver, tough luck, but you are not having to reprog your key just because someone left - if you are making a PUG raid, and your group quit after 3 wipes on the 4th boss, you don’t have to prog boss number 3 again that week if you want to give it another shot.

    There could be an argument that people will try to use this system to their own advantages, going to get gear too fast or something. But in reality this does not change much - with the amount of PUG-s available Tank / Healers or DPS-es (the later with meta spec/high ilvl/high io) can already just pick and choose which dungeon on which level they want to do.

    —-

    Also removal of Tyranical/Fortified in theory could help, as leavers are more likely happen on tyranical week due to dungeons being potentially not clearable at all due to bosses hitting to hard.
    Last edited by Ludek; 2023-01-08 at 10:37 PM.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludek View Post

    —-

    Also removal of Tyranical/Fortified in theory could help, as leavers are more likely happen on tyranical week due to dungeons being potentially not clearable at all due to bosses hitting to hard.
    Bosses hitting too hard only comes into effect on like +20 keys, and I’m confident that 90% of people doing +20 keys aren’t 5 randoms together.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Cazz17 View Post
    Bosses hitting too hard only comes into effect on like +20 keys, and I’m confident that 90% of people doing +20 keys aren’t 5 randoms together.

    Tyrannical applies to all key levels.
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  7. #47
    Really the root cause is that players can't be replaced.

    In my opinion, M10 and below should just stop the timer and let the leaver be replaced via the group finder.

    Low level keys are casuals trying to get gear, so just let players be replaced in M10 or below.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by zRares View Post
    People fail to look for a solution because like I said, most of the people commenting here are the leavers.

    And in a world where a**holes are predominant, it makes sense.

    So I rest my case.

    There is no saving the human race! )
    Hi. I'm here to remind you that this is a video game.

    If people sign up for content they're not ready for, is it my responsibility to coach them through it? What if I have limited playtime? Time enough for one or two dungeons before work?

    I'm asking this as someone who will coach people through fuck-ups.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by pahbi View Post
    Really the root cause is that players can't be replaced.

    In my opinion, M10 and below should just stop the timer and let the leaver be replaced via the group finder.

    Low level keys are casuals trying to get gear, so just let players be replaced in M10 or below.
    Prepare to be kicked right before the endboss and replaced with "a friend who just came online" ...

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by pahbi View Post
    Really the root cause is that players can't be replaced.

    In my opinion, M10 and below should just stop the timer and let the leaver be replaced via the group finder.

    Low level keys are casuals trying to get gear, so just let players be replaced in M10 or below.
    Honestly, I think they should redo the entire difficulty system and just have it be scaling numbers based from the start. And then you can bracket things like you're saying, with progressively harder and more stringent rules - don't even have a timer on low M+ for example, but add that only past a certain threshold. Kind of as if it was an affix of its own. And sure, do the whole replace people thing along with that, since if there isn't a timer that shouldn't be a big deal (and it being low difficulty means there wouldn't be a market to exploit with selling last-boss kills).

    And of course get rid of the key system. Just have it be a dropdown, and you can go up to the highest you've completed (+bonus based on time left). Actual keys are an outdated concept.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Cynical Asshole View Post
    That makes 0 sense.

    As long as I invited people through the Group Finder, it's the same thing. Just opens 4 people to being victimized by a troll or some impatient douchebag, and there should be consequences for it. Hopefully they are coming.

    Only people disagreeing with this are the chronic leavers, and they know they would be most affected.
    I’ve left one key so far this expansion, and it was because we wiped 3x on the first boat of academy with two of the dps doing less than 1/2 the damage of the tank.

    I was the third dps.

    I normally won’t leave if we are going to complete the key, even if it won’t be timed, but punishing me for leaving that key would feel bad. It was never going to happen and IF it did, it would be because we were carrying two bad dps players. That’s the problem with blanket punishments.

  12. #52
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    It is extremely common for groups to disband voluntarily, especially at higher keys. There are also tons of valid reasons to leave a key. It wouldn't surprise me if these situations are equal to, or even outnumber, the situations where one dude just leaves because he's impatient or a dick.

    I get wanting to punish people who ruined your experience, but not at the cost of inadvertently punishing groups and players who aren't doing anything wrong, and this idea would do that, and perhaps disproportionately so.

    Incentivize people to stay (although I think they did this with the loot changes), sure, but don't punish for leaving. Ultimately, at some level we have to accept the risk of this happening when we PuG.

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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by cozzri View Post
    Simple fix. Have a vote to quit dialogue box. And give it a cool down to initiate so clowns aren't spamming it the first then they die.
    that will cost us at least 1 raid tier.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by zRares View Post
    I don't understand how there are no repercussions if someone leaves the M+ group (for various reasons) and messes up someone else's key.

    In PvP if you leave nobody loses anything else but time and your spot can be replaced by someone else and you still get deserter, in M+ nothing.

    Literally, nobody is trying in M+ anymore because they don't have to. If people would get a 30 minutes deserter for leaving an M+ group, people would try harder to finish a key even if it will be depleted or barely in time.

    Is it just me, or?
    if you want a boost then buy boost with gold instead expecting good players to carry you for free.

    then people will stop leaving your keys.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by lllll View Post
    Stop expecting people to stick around to carry you through a dungeon in pugs.
    stop leaving after the 1st wipe and stop expecting perfection in dungeons

  16. #56
    Is this even a major problem? Only time I see people leave keys is if it's clearly not going to get done.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by zRares View Post

    It's funny to me that people that don't have issues with leavers are against it, probably because they are the elitists that leave groups and mess up people's keys )
    "If you didn't do anything wrong, you have nothing to fear."

    The age old axiom of fascist police states everywhere.

    Some problems you have to solve yourself, Blizzard can't do it for you
    A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Lora View Post
    No one is required to stick around to finish a key that is doomed to fail. I'm not about to waste 30 minutes wiping constantly for whatever reason. Should people who leave the key immediately after it starts be punished, sure. But there's so many factors that go into why someone would leave a key. They don't want to carry, don't want to deal with bad tank/heals/dps, not gonna time it etc.
    they the whouldnt stay in the grp when the key goes in, if they think its gona be a carry the should leave be4 hand

  19. #59
    Stood in the Fire lllll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thunderdragon2 View Post
    stop leaving after the 1st wipe and stop expecting perfection in dungeons
    I don't leave after first wipe.

    I leave when people play bad and it's a boost run.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by lllll View Post
    I don't leave after first wipe.

    I leave when people play bad and it's a boost run.
    i was saying in general you jsut happened to be the 1 saying that sort of thing

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