Leaving M+ group should give you DESERTER

[Nite92]

It's a statistical view. It will even out, it just might take a few runs.

The interesting thing is that you don't think that this is an issue and it's just an evil strawman. But people who are maliciously downvoting someone would be very common. Why is that?




5 times in a row? Very unlikely. But if that's a worry, you could do a couple of things about that. Just give people who get upvoted a lot a star or something and don't show the rating at all. Don't show it in the first 10-20 runs and have newbie flower (like FFXIV) instead. I'm just spitballing here but this would have no negative effect on the game, just rewarding friendly players.

This is not at all comparable to FF. Because FF gives you rating in super casual content, here it is about being helpful and terribly bad.
M+ is much more endgame. If you wanted to add a friendly player system in heroics or m, I'm all for it, just not in m+.

Also funny, that you mention "evil strawman", when this is the entire point of this thread. VERY few people leave maliciously. I'd argue this are so few people, that it would be ridiculous to change the game due to them.
People mostly have areason to leave. I have done close to 300 keys this expansion, and I have yet to see people leave maliciously.
Most of the time, they just leave after it is a certain deplete, or the key is becoming unfun, due to many many mistakes.

[Anzen]

The interesting thing is that you don't think that this is an issue and it's just an evil strawman. But people who are maliciously downvoting someone would be very common. Why is that?

Unfortunately I think you've misunderstood the point.

This thread is framed on people (the evil strawman I reference) that leave runs 'for no reason'. I mention that I think this situation (people leaving runs for 'no reason') is incredibly rare and a non-issue.

I fully accept that people leave runs more commonly for specific reasons. This is the root of the debate in this thread.

If I join a run in which several of the DPS are dying to every single ability, I don't think I should be punished for leaving.

The counter to my view throughout this thread has largely been based on the strawman that punishments are needed to stop the evil people that leave maliciously/for no reason. My point remains that this is extremely rare and so a non-issue. I've still not seen a convincing argument in this thread that once boiled down is anything other than forcing carries.

Nite92 has a similar view to mine (and similar experiences, I have also yet to see someone leave 'for no reason'). To go back to my earlier post, I'd say that in a lot of experiences of posters in this thread of 'people leaving for no reason', the likely reality is that the poster just did not understand the reason the person left.

There's a solid example a few pages back of someone running RLP not realising that you can bait the spawn of the add or the meteor on the second boss, yet claimed the healer needed to l2p and left because he was a baddy...

Also funny, that you mention "evil strawman", when this is the entire point of this thread. VERY few people leave maliciously. I'd argue this are so few people, that it would be ridiculous to change the game due to them.
People mostly have areason to leave. I have done close to 300 keys this expansion, and I have yet to see people leave maliciously.
Most of the time, they just leave after it is a certain deplete, or the key is becoming unfun, due to many many mistakes.

[Tiwack]

Mhmm, of course you do. If you're going to troll, at least make it somewhat convincing.

Some players are on a mission to end the concept of pugging for good in a protest against the asinine design of M+ key-system.
I have encountered exactly the scenario described and I just quit M+ altogether because a part of me agrees that this game is grindy enough as it is with weekly resets ad-infinitum and I don't think anything good can ever come out of gatekeeping access like that. Of course the issue is only more glaring in pugs.

[Anzen]

Some players are on a mission to end the concept of pugging for good in a protest against the asinine design of M+ key-system.
I have encountered exactly the scenario described and I just quit M+ altogether because a part of me agrees that this game is grindy enough as it is with weekly resets ad-infinitum and I don't think anything good can ever come out of gatekeeping access like that. Of course the issue is only more glaring in pugs.

I'm quite curious why that would be a reasonable response to disliking Mythic Dungeons.

I don't particularly enjoy 2v2, but I don't spend all day joining random groups for 2's to leave once the gate opens, penalising total strangers in some strange form of protest, because I know others like doing it. If I don't enjoy certain content, I just don't do it.

I personally (and many others in this thread) have not encountered this very rare scenario but I'd say it's convenient that you have, while also being anti-mythic+.

I'm not sure that removing weekly resets or 'gatekeeping access' would have a positive effect. It would just encourage people to run 200 mythic dungeons in the first week to get BiS and then have no reason to play for the rest of the season. I personally prefer the current GV system to this alternative (but maybe that's because I don't have infinite play-time).

[Lolites]

5 times in a row? Very unlikely. But if that's a worry, you could do a couple of things about that. Just give people who get upvoted a lot a star or something and don't show the rating at all. Don't show it in the first 10-20 runs and have newbie flower (like FFXIV) instead. I'm just spitballing here but this would have no negative effect on the game, just rewarding friendly players.

5 times in a row? Very unlikely. But if that's a worry, you could do a couple of things about that. Just give people who get upvoted a lot a star or something and don't show the rating at all. Don't show it in the first 10-20 runs and have newbie flower (like FFXIV) instead. I'm just spitballing here but this would have no negative effect on the game, just rewarding friendly players.

1. groups proceed to NOT INVITE anyone not marked as "good player"...
2. people purposefuly screwing with other people "rating"...
and thats just literaly first thought, there sure will be more issues... but yep, no negatives at all... /s

[Archy]

This is not at all comparable to FF. Because FF gives you rating in super casual content, here it is about being helpful and terribly bad.
M+ is much more endgame. If you wanted to add a friendly player system in heroics or m, I'm all for it, just not in m+.

Also funny, that you mention "evil strawman", when this is the entire point of this thread. VERY few people leave maliciously. I'd argue this are so few people, that it would be ridiculous to change the game due to them.
People mostly have areason to leave. I have done close to 300 keys this expansion, and I have yet to see people leave maliciously.
Most of the time, they just leave after it is a certain deplete, or the key is becoming unfun, due to many many mistakes.

I just mention FFXIV as a refrence point for what it could look like, not comparing system behind it. You're always a beginner somewhere, even in "endgame". M+ isn't hard endgame content in lower keys. There are threads about people being too anxious to join M+ and communities dedicated to having friendly runs. I'm pretty sure there is an issue here that needs to be adressed.

If you reread my comment you'd notice that I didn't bring up the "evil strawman" but Anzen did.
You probably define leaving maliciously as someone leaving a perfect in time key because of some petty reason. That happens rarely, yes. The "problem" is that depleted keys also offer a lot of rewards. If a group invests 30min in to a key and come to the realization that they won't make it but 1 player decides that he doesn't want to invest another 10 min in the key and leaves, it's maybe not malicious but definitely egoistic. Because you very well know that the "normal" way to leave, is just to leave, not having a discussion if people need the loot afterwards.

Unfortunately I think you've misunderstood the point.

This thread is framed on people (the evil strawman I reference) that leave runs 'for no reason'. I mention that I think this situation (people leaving runs for 'no reason') is incredibly rare and a non-issue.

I fully accept that people leave runs more commonly for specific reasons. This is the root of the debate in this thread.

If I join a run in which several of the DPS are dying to every single ability, I don't think I should be punished for leaving.

The counter to my view throughout this thread has largely been based on the strawman that punishments are needed to stop the evil people that leave maliciously/for no reason. My point remains that this is extremely rare and so a non-issue. I've still not seen a convincing argument in this thread that once boiled down is anything other than forcing carries.

It was you that mentioned (and also created) that evil strawman. You turned "players leaving for no good reason" (which people are obviously talking about) into "players leaving for no reason". Of course there aren't players leaving for no reason at all.

I agree that the root of the debate (at least between us) is what constitutes as a good reason to leave. But that's exactly why I suggested something like a rating system. People don't communicate and are behaving like assholes because there are no consequences. If you don't care about that sort of thing, just ignore that system and invite the one with the highest ilvl/rating.

There definitely is a problem (just look at this post with 800 comments, or look at reddit). So saying that this is a non issue is just wrong. But maybe, as you said, the root of the problem lies somewhere else. Having options in group finder (like a vote option, that you can toggle) might be a solution.

1. groups proceed to NOT INVITE anyone not marked as "good player"...
2. people purposefuly screwing with other people "rating"...
and thats just literaly first thought, there sure will be more issues... but yep, no negatives at all... /s

1. Marked as "friendly" players, not good. There is still rating and ilvl. You're also assuming that those marks are ubiquitous and not having them is a punishment and not the other way around.
2. Give me a good reason why people would do that on a regular basis and why it would only happen to you and not everybody else? If it happens to everybody it will even out again. (Rating systems can be smart nowadays)

Yeah I see that it was a first thought, because it wasn't thought out at all. Did you even consider how people are chosen at the moment? Rating, ilvl, meta spec and comp based utility. 2 of the 4 you can't influence, because it's just the class you've chosen to play. If you're climbing one step at a time rating is also out of your hand. So there is only ilvl left. Why would somebody invite a 410 over a 412? There is no reason to. So the decision is mainly based on how much luck (or time/gold) you have. This is more out of your hand than "nice player mark" would ever be.

[Anzen]

It was you that mentioned (and also created) that evil strawman. You turned "players leaving for no good reason" (which people are obviously talking about) into "players leaving for no reason". Of course there aren't players leaving for no reason at all.

I agree that the root of the debate (at least between us) is what constitutes as a good reason to leave. But that's exactly why I suggested something like a rating system. People don't communicate and are behaving like assholes because there are no consequences. If you don't care about that sort of thing, just ignore that system and invite the one with the highest ilvl/rating.

There definitely is a problem (just look at this post with 800 comments, or look at reddit). So saying that this is a non issue is just wrong. But maybe, as you said, the root of the problem lies somewhere else. Having options in group finder (like a vote option, that you can toggle) might be a solution.

Oh give me strength.

If you'd actually read any of this thread except the last page, you'd see that there are numerous examples cited of 'healer left for no reason' as justification for anti-leaver punishments. I did not create this strawman, I only characterised it - I have said time and time again that it very rarely happens so we should stop talking about it. If you also agree, then great, we can agree on something and can stop talking about it, but this is contrary to the views of some of the other anti-leave protestors in this thread.

It isn't the root of the debate between just us - again, if you'd gone back, you'd see it summarised in this way multiple times - I'll even link my post from 300 posts ago showing this...

This whole thread has run it's course because of a fundamental disagreement between Zardas and others (including me) - of when it is acceptable to leave a run. Some ('elitist' you may call them) players say immediately if a mistake is made, some (myself included) players say if it's clear that the run will not be timed, some players say if it's clear that the run can not be completed with current player skill and others (Zardas included) say it is not acceptable to leave a run under any circumstances without unanimous agreement (as there are opportunities to teach and have team members practice the mechanics during the run). This naturally causes controversy, because we can see that 'when is it acceptable to leave a run' is subjective.

The fact this thread has 800 comments or whatever isn't because it's a serious issue. It's because characters like you waddle in, having not read any of the previous posts, and wade in with your fantastic idea... for people to repeat the same glaring issues with it, as they've had to do ad nauseum.

To note, the first half of this thread was effectively dominated by a single posted called Zardas who was defiantly arguing that there is NEVER an acceptable reason to leave a run, as if a player was not good enough to kill a boss - they should be helped and taught by the group until they are. Obviously this caused controversy and this thread turned into multiple hundreds of comments just off that...

Lastly, while it is a blast for randoms to keep jumping in with their hairbrained ideas (that have been said a hundred times in this thread already), they nearly always miss the fact that punishing someone that leaves a group would inevitably cause even more toxic behaviour to force someone else to leave a group. E.g. deliberately wiping the group, going afk, etc.

Even your suggestion is filled with holes (some outlined above) - others include the fact the best way to boost this score intended to illustrate how good you are in pugs... is ironically to speedrun M+ with friends so they can rate each other. Even more ironically, the Illll guy in this thread that spoke about mostly running with friends but occassionally pugging and trolling people by having his friends all report them would have the highest positivity score by your design.

[Archy]

Oh give me strength.

If you'd actually read any of this thread except the last page, you'd see that there are numerous examples cited of 'healer left for no reason' as justification for anti-leaver punishments. I did not create this strawman, I only characterised it - I have said time and time again that it very rarely happens so we should stop talking about it. If you also agree, then great, we can agree on something and can stop talking about it, but this is contrary to the views of some of the other anti-leave protestors in this thread.

It isn't the root of the debate between just us - again, if you'd gone back, you'd see it summarised in this way multiple times - I'll even link my post from 300 posts ago showing this...



The fact this thread has 800 comments or whatever isn't because it's a serious issue. It's because characters like you waddle in, having not read any of the previous posts, and wade in with your fantastic idea... for people to repeat the same glaring issues with it, as they've had to do ad nauseum.

To note, the first half of this thread was effectively dominated by a single posted called Zardas who was defiantly arguing that there is NEVER an acceptable reason to leave a run, as if a player was not good enough to kill a boss - they should be helped and taught by the group until they are. Obviously this caused controversy and this thread turned into multiple hundreds of comments just off that...

Lastly, while it is a blast for randoms to keep jumping in with their hairbrained ideas (that have been said a hundred times in this thread already), they nearly always miss the fact that punishing someone that leaves a group would inevitably cause even more toxic behaviour to force someone else to leave a group. E.g. deliberately wiping the group, going afk, etc.

Even your suggestion is filled with holes (some outlined above) - others include the fact the best way to boost this score intended to illustrate how good you are in pugs... is ironically to speedrun M+ with friends so they can rate each other. Even more ironically, the Illll guy in this thread that spoke about mostly running with friends but occassionally pugging and trolling people by having his friends all report them would have the highest positivity score by your design.

Not coming to work because you don't feel like it, isn't a reason. That's a normal statement. Everything a person does has a reason behind it. Having no reason to do something usual means having no good reason to do something. Language, you know.
So, no we shouldn't stop talking about people leaving for no reason. Because they do. The problem is that you're one of those players a lot of people don't want to play with, so you argue from the side of the leaver. For you it's ok to leave a key that will be depleted/feels unfun because of deaths (what other common reason would you even think of?). But it's not clear to everyone when a key is depleted and is not communicated to your team. People just leave the group with no word. That frustrates players. (I'm also guessing/hoping that you only think of yourself in that situation and are doing 21+ keys where all of this is a non-issue).

You mean, you repeat the same argument (that there is no problem) over and over again? So your saying that a lot of people read the title of the thread and think that it's an issue and you still think it isn't a problem?

Yeah obviously the system would just allow for friends to upvote each over run after every run. There is nothing you can do about that. We just don't have the technology.
Also funny you mention a malicious M+ player that barely exists as something to support a weak argument.

M+ is a competitive game. Please name on popular competitve multiplayer game that doesn't punish leavers at all.

[Tiwack]

snip

Nah the only reason this thread keeps going as if that's even a problem(?) is because people like yourself dismiss the issue while using other peoples experiences and criticism to put down them down while mounting your own high horses.
Oddly people don't respond well to that.

[Iamimpressive]

People leave cause of various reasons and some may be justified. There should exist a penalty for leaving, with that i agree - but maybe the solution for people to leave less dungeons would be to remove the downgrade key system. Failing a key should only cost you time invested in that failed key and not time invested to increase the key level.
This system is just based on their monetization, it takes more weeks with this system to reach personal in-game goals.
So stop fighting eachother and ask for friendly game mechanics from the develepers you pay - stop asking random dudes why they leave.

[thunderdragon2]

People leave cause of various reasons and some may be justified. There should exist a penalty for leaving, with that i agree - but maybe the solution for people to leave less dungeons would be to remove the downgrade key system. Failing a key should only cost you time invested in that failed key and not time invested to increase the key level.
This system is just based on their monetization, it takes more weeks with this system to reach personal in-game goals.
So stop fighting eachother and ask for friendly game mechanics from the develepers you pay - stop asking random dudes why they leave.

ill give you 2 example see if these are justified reasons

my bear got a vault 9 week1 fort week got a monk as dps he left once i made my 1st pull the only reason i can surmise for his leaving is that i didnt double pull.

i reiterate this was a VAULT NINE on WEEK ONE

also had a prot warr leave my nokhud 14 last week coz i accidently clicked hero on the 1st boss

[Iamimpressive]

With a smarter and friendlier system, you would not care. My pov

[Biomega]

With a smarter and friendlier system, you would not care. My pov

"If things were better we'd have less problems"

Yes.

Yes indeed.

I can unequivocally say that this is a 100% true statement.

[SoundOfGuns]

no, understanding the consequences is reason to be against system punishing whoever leaves first, rather than person responsible for the key being bust...

Ah, and how exactly do you think would that be done? Hire a monitoring GM for every dungeon to make sure the person who left had a "valid" reason? Fact is, whoever leaves breaks the key for whoever put it in. And even if another of the 5 players is the idiot in question, not the guy who bailed on the first sight of trouble (and i got the distinct impression this is precisely you), the only one really losing anything is the keys owner. And he gets punished either way. And because new players cannot be pulled in to replace in a broken key, there isn't even the option to remove the problem-player yourself.

Also this argument is fucking stupid from you, considering the rest of your post clearly tells everyone reading it you are the kind of jerk who thinks they never make any mistakes, everyone else sucks and if someone fucked up to cause a wipe - and how dare they in this serious super important VIDEOGAME - you instantly run for the hills, haunting the next set of players who probably felt a disturbance the moment you even did as much as look at their group in the finder.

[Lolites]

Ah, and how exactly do you think would that be done? Hire a monitoring GM for every dungeon to make sure the person who left had a "valid" reason?

how about keeping it as it is, instead of breaking it trying to solve something thats not really even an issue? its surely not perfect, but its about 100-10000 times better than any of the "solutions" suggested in this thread...

maybe how about instead of forcing your goals on people (or better yet asking blizz to do so for you) you COMMUNICATE them before starting the key? you know, so people who want to time it and people who only want to finish for weekly dont run together? tools are even in place to make it easier, you just have to TRY...

and here is a clue about leavers - if it happens all the time to you, that people just leave, and you dont know why, its quite possible YOU are the reason...

rest of your post clearly tells everyone reading it you are the kind of jerk who thinks they never make any mistakes, everyone else sucks and if someone fucked up to cause a wipe - and how dare they in this serious super important VIDEOGAME - you instantly run for the hills, haunting the next set of players who probably felt a disturbance the moment you even did as much as look at their group in the finder.

your reading comprehension is atrocious then, bcs none of this is even close to anything i wrote... or reality itself...
and with how you skip to namecalling and putting words in my mouth, if you are like that ingame im not surprised people leave your groups, and rightfully so...

also, interesting logic you have there, someone screwing up, costing rest of group time, and often even rewards is not an issue bcs its just a videogame, agree on that
...but then, someone leaving, which too just cost rest of group time IS an issue, which should be "solved" by punishing people? even though its still just time, and still just a videogame? seems like hypocrisy to me...

[Garymorilix]

I put faith in large numbers and comparability. If people tend to blame the healer, all healers would get blamed equally. Things like that should even out over a number of runs.

Well then what's the issue exactly?

People leaving randomly is extremely rare.
There is no problem. That's what is being told here constantly.

[Archy]

Well then what's the issue exactly?

People leaving randomly is extremely rare.
There is no problem. That's what is being told here constantly.

Different goals. Some people want to finish the key for weekly/loot/rating/valor regardless and some don't. Even if it's communicated before, they just don't care.

3 examples just from last two days:
1. +19 RLP starts. Tank pulls (not skippung first guy) 4 packs (fort + bolstering) los-ing the healer. Wipe. He leaves.

2. +21 Nokhud. Tactics were discussed before and also that we'd stay for the weekly. Rogue leaves on first wipe in 2nd biss because orbs were let through. After loudly complaining that nobody kicks (had half the kicks of the hunter on details and took 80% of all avoidable damage).

3. +20 AV. Time would have been close but we had a decent run so far and 7 min left for last 2 bosses (fort). Tank leaves because "we didn't stack enough for the frogs".

So you have your basic 3 causes of frustratration right there.
1: Bad player/a bad play bricks your key (and that's also yourself sometime, not really an issue)
2: People not keeping their word.
3: Different understanding if the key is depleted.

[Garymorilix]

Different goals. Some people want to finish the key for weekly/loot/rating/valor regardless and some don't. Even if it's communicated before, they just don't care.

3 examples just from last two days:
1. +19 RLP starts. Tank pulls (not skippung first guy) 4 packs (fort + bolstering) los-ing the healer. Wipe. He leaves.

2. +21 Nokhud. Tactics were discussed before and also that we'd stay for the weekly. Rogue leaves on first wipe in 2nd biss because orbs were let through. After loudly complaining that nobody kicks (had half the kicks of the hunter on details and took 80% of all avoidable damage).

3. +20 AV. Time would have been close but we had a decent run so far and 7 min left for last 2 bosses (fort). Tank leaves because "we didn't stack enough for the frogs".

So you have your basic 3 causes of frustratration right there.
1: Bad player/a bad play bricks your key (and that's also yourself sometime, not really an issue)
2: People not keeping their word.
3: Different understanding if the key is depleted.

All three of these are pretty justified.

1) This is not an insane pull. I guess you blew your BL and died when the trash was around beaten down but not dead. I wouldn't continue a key like that if I want it timed.

2) and 3) are kinda sus. As I said many times, people will not be frustrated if the key is going well.
Maybe you see these as the only issues that happened in those runs but for the rogue they were the last straw (who tf lets thru the orbs anyway).

I had a HoV run 2 days ago where I invited 3-man premade.
The dps DH kept dying, didn't know boss or trash mechanics, didn't know how to do thundering at all and even body pulled.
I stayed until the 3rd boss then bailed.
I have a certain level of patience but this gross incompetence I couldn't tolerate any longer. I didn't even type anything in chat it was not worth it.
This was a fairly high-score guy compared to the dungeon (I think it was a 16 or 17).

Point is, things like people running around with Thundering so you have to actively chase them or when they instantly clear it for no reason etc these are little things that you as an observer wouldn't see as an issue right away but for the person experiencing it it is a major cause of frustration.
A couple of wipes after that even in a weekly run and it's just not worth the hassle anymore.

[tomten]

Friend and I had a good laugh when literally I would sit there drinking and eating after pull to keep my hp up or I would die to a DoT even with turtle active.

Pretty sure turtle doesn't work on dots so maybe thats your main issue?

- - - Updated - - -

All three of these are pretty justified.

1) This is not an insane pull. I guess you blew your BL and died when the trash was around beaten down but not dead. I wouldn't continue a key like that if I want it timed.

Pretty stupid pull on fortified with bolstering. Why would you even bring the big dude into a 3 pull? Makes no sense.

[Tech614]

Pretty stupid pull on fortified with bolstering. Why would you even bring the big dude into a 3 pull? Makes no sense.

Funnel and focus damage on the big guy genius. If you don't have a shroud that is a perfectly viable pull and the one most groups do. If you are being stupid and putting your funnel damage on little guys and bolstering him that's a you/your group problem not the pull problem.