Leaving M+ group should give you DESERTER

[Zodiark]

Stop expecting people to stick around to carry you through a dungeon in pugs.

Nope people who sign up to something SHOULD be expected to stay. Barring some crazy unforeseen RL issue. In which case you wouldn't care if you got a deserter buff or whatever in the first place.

Everyone wants things with no strings attached or any weight to their decisions. Well guess what? Sometimes there is and there is nothing you can do about it. Thats life. When you are in a group that YOU signed up for then don't effing leave no matter what unless it's absolutely necessary. Or DON't sing up in the first place. I was in a painful group myself the other night. Shit was literally doing down so slow I could have went afk with auto attack on and took a dump and came back and the mob would have still been there. I didn't leave. I thought about it sure, but then I was like, no this isn't the right thing to do.

[Relapses]

Nope people who sign up to something SHOULD be expected to stay. Barring some crazy unforeseen RL issue. In which case you wouldn't care if you got a deserter buff or whatever in the first place.

Everyone wants things with no strings attached or any weight to their decisions. Well guess what? Sometimes there is and there is nothing you can do about it. Thats life. When you are in a group that YOU signed up for then don't effing leave no matter what unless it's absolutely necessary. Or DON't sing up in the first place. I was in a painful group myself the other night. Shit was literally doing down so slow I could have went afk with auto attack on and took a dump and came back and the mob would have still been there. I didn't leave. I thought about it sure, but then I was like, no this isn't the right thing to do.

"I don't value my own time therefore nobody else should either."

S-tier take, my guy.

[Zodiark]

I do value my time. Very much. But when I signed up for a group I also took everyone else's time into consideration. It isn't just about you and your time. Think about if your the tank which I was how it slows everyone down even further compounding the issue by making them wait for a replacement and if everyone leaves then they have to wait for a new Queue again wasting even more time. nice try making it about YOUR time and not everyone else. Point is that people should work harder to stay and make the group the best they can on their part not bail because things get a little rough. That builds character outside of the game.

[NotBigzo]

The easiest way to shield yourself from unpredictable and harmful behavior from strangers is to not play with strangers.

Make friends. Grow relationships, and run your trusted keys with them.

[Relapses]

I do value my time. Very much. But when I signed up for a group I also took everyone else's time into consideration. It isn't just about you and your time. Think about if your the tank which I was how it slows everyone down even further compounding the issue by making them wait for a replacement and if everyone leaves then they have to wait for a new Queue again wasting even more time. nice try making it about YOUR time and not everyone else. Point is that people should work harder to stay and make the group the best they can on their part not bail because things get a little rough. That builds character outside of the game.

More sagely advice. I'll remember that the next time my boss is grilling me for failing to meet performance metrics.

"Hey, that's nice and all but I'd like to remind you that I spent 6 hours in a +10 Shadowmoon Burial Grounds and the healer added me to Real ID afterward!"

[Twdft]

Nope people who sign up to something SHOULD be expected to stay.

Yes, for the stated goal of the run. I you don't use "completion" option in dungeon finder when making your group don't expect anyone to stay if it looks like it's going to be 10mins over time.

[Archy]

All three of these are pretty justified.

1) This is not an insane pull. I guess you blew your BL and died when the trash was around beaten down but not dead. I wouldn't continue a key like that if I want it timed.

2) and 3) are kinda sus. As I said many times, people will not be frustrated if the key is going well.
Maybe you see these as the only issues that happened in those runs but for the rogue they were the last straw (who tf lets thru the orbs anyway).

I had a HoV run 2 days ago where I invited 3-man premade.
The dps DH kept dying, didn't know boss or trash mechanics, didn't know how to do thundering at all and even body pulled.
I stayed until the 3rd boss then bailed.
I have a certain level of patience but this gross incompetence I couldn't tolerate any longer. I didn't even type anything in chat it was not worth it.
This was a fairly high-score guy compared to the dungeon (I think it was a 16 or 17).

Point is, things like people running around with Thundering so you have to actively chase them or when they instantly clear it for no reason etc these are little things that you as an observer wouldn't see as an issue right away but for the person experiencing it it is a major cause of frustration.
A couple of wipes after that even in a weekly run and it's just not worth the hassle anymore.

I kind of agree on 1. Maybe I overstated the mistake made by the tank. It's still frustrating if a player that made a bad play leaves.

I mean, of course. People won't be frustrated if everything is going well. This has kind of the energy of : "If my kids are behaving right, I don't have to beat them. It's on them. They made me do it."

Don't really get how you can say that all of those 3 are justified. You even said they are kind of sus and didn't offer any reason why it's alright what they did. I can even offer you a better example on 1. Nokhud double pull on fort with BL and CD -> wipe. Did it again -> of course another wipe. And he left. The poor DPS guy who is trying to push his 19 to a 20 because he is playing an off meta spec and has to rely on his own key is fucked.

It doesn't matter if you are frustrated. Suck it up and play the key. Sometimes you had enough and you just take the punishment. But not being punished for being a selfish dick isn't working well in multiplayer games.

[Drigs]

Yes they should. There should be a surrender option that will let players leave the key without it but people who just leave at the first struggle should be punished just like they are in BGs

[Anzen]

Not coming to work because you don't feel like it, isn't a reason. That's a normal statement. Everything a person does has a reason behind it. Having no reason to do something usual means having no good reason to do something. Language, you know.

If semantics bother you that much - replace the word 'reason' with 'justification' in my posts.

The scenario of someone leaving with no justification (as in, nothing objectively went wrong within the run) is rare. I think most people in this thread accept this.

So, no we shouldn't stop talking about people leaving for no reason. Because they do. The problem is that you're one of those players a lot of people don't want to play with, so you argue from the side of the leaver. For you it's ok to leave a key that will be depleted/feels unfun because of deaths (what other common reason would you even think of?). But it's not clear to everyone when a key is depleted and is not communicated to your team. People just leave the group with no word. That frustrates players. (I'm also guessing/hoping that you only think of yourself in that situation and are doing 21+ keys where all of this is a non-issue).

I'd say people subjectively leave 'for no reason' more often than they objectively leave 'for no reason'. The difference is whether players understand the reason why someone might have left.

It's quite amusing that you have had to resort to blanket statements like "you're one of those players a lot of people don't want to play with" to support your shakey assertions, given that I have maintained throughought the thread that leavers are relatively uncommon in my experience and I have great success in mythic+. I know it fits your argument better if I'm this villain who drops groups the second a party member takes a single point of avoidable damage, but unfortunately it's not reality. Literally last night I did 18+ SBG in time with 21 deaths at the end of the run (farming concentrated primal infusions - tank didn't seem to understand how bolstering worked and kept chain pulling while the DH AoE stunned the 'domination casting' adds straight away... luckily SBG is a total joke).

The only time I leave keys are when it's obvious that the run will not be timed, and I suspect that if I did not leave, others would straight after. If you pop lust on the first boss of a dungeon and wipe... then pull it again and wipe... you can probably assume the run will not be timed.

To touch on your last point, the reason people leave without saying anything, is because everyone knows what happens if you point out someones shortcomings, they ain't whispering you "thanks for the advice bro, much appreciated".

You mean, you repeat the same argument (that there is no problem) over and over again? So your saying that a lot of people read the title of the thread and think that it's an issue and you still think it isn't a problem?

Oh so anything that someone decides to create a thread here on MMOC is validated as a valid issue? Have you seen some of the threads we've had? I could literally create a thread now saying "I have an addon that announces whether the party has food buff - but if DPS were to use stamina food it doesn't announce they are missing food"... I don't know if this is the case, I've never seen it happen, but all of a sudden I would have a thread arguing 1. you should always inspect peoples food choice 2. food buff is food buff 3. add visual effects to people who use food suited to different roles 4. add a food score, which indicates the type of food they've used over the past couple of runs 5. add a rating where people can vote on the food choice of individual participants 6. make it so people can not enter an instance without the correct role-appropriate foods 7. add a vote on whether they should have gold auto-deducted for the correct food, etc. The reality? No-one has ever noticed it as being an issue, yet it suddenly is because I've said it is. Even if the whole thread is "I haven't personally experienced this as an issue but..." - much like this thread.

Yeah obviously the system would just allow for friends to upvote each over run after every run. There is nothing you can do about that. We just don't have the technology.

Lmao *facepalm* so yet again, your concept, as with all others in this thread, has obvious and significant flaws, right out the gate.

So the people with the highest scores would be those that generally avoid pugging with strangers. 10/10

Nah the only reason this thread keeps going as if that's even a problem(?) is because people like yourself dismiss the issue while using other peoples experiences and criticism to put down them down while mounting your own high horses.
Oddly people don't respond well to that.

I know people don't like it, but it serves as perfect examples of how people often do not understand the reasons people leave.

It's a double edged sword, because people also generally do not like it if a people leave offering their criticism as a parting gift.

- - - Updated - - -

Different goals. Some people want to finish the key for weekly/loot/rating/valor regardless and some don't. Even if it's communicated before, they just don't care.

3 examples just from last two days:
1. +19 RLP starts. Tank pulls (not skippung first guy) 4 packs (fort + bolstering) los-ing the healer. Wipe. He leaves.

2. +21 Nokhud. Tactics were discussed before and also that we'd stay for the weekly. Rogue leaves on first wipe in 2nd biss because orbs were let through. After loudly complaining that nobody kicks (had half the kicks of the hunter on details and took 80% of all avoidable damage).

3. +20 AV. Time would have been close but we had a decent run so far and 7 min left for last 2 bosses (fort). Tank leaves because "we didn't stack enough for the frogs".

So you have your basic 3 causes of frustratration right there.
1: Bad player/a bad play bricks your key (and that's also yourself sometime, not really an issue)
2: People not keeping their word.
3: Different understanding if the key is depleted.

While I understand the reasons it fits your narrative better if the person leaving is also the baddie, I find it somewhat amusing that even if it that was typically the case, punishing leavers would be counterproductive to you.

The baddies that don't under mechanics, or how to interrupt, or take 80% of all avoidable damage - you're stuck with them now.

I can understand the motivation of others in this thread running lower level mythics wanting to complete the run at all costs because they want the gear or valor. But I can't see that this is the case for you. Would you truly be happy being forced to stay, at fear of punishment, in all of these runs if it was clear you couldn't time them?

Careful what you wish for or you might just get it.

- - - Updated - - -

The dps DH kept dying, didn't know boss or trash mechanics, didn't know how to do thundering at all and even body pulled.

Sounds like a typical 2.7k DH.

[Nymrohd]

I can understand the motivation of others in this thread running lower level mythics wanting to complete the run at all costs because they want the gear or valor. But I can't see that this is the case for you. Would you truly be happy being forced to stay, at fear of punishment, in all of these runs if it was clear you couldn't time them?

So what if Completion and Beat Timer were more than just an indication in the UI but actually meant something. What if when the key was used, the key user got to pick between Completion and Beat Timer and there was a vote on the spot?

[Garymorilix]

I kind of agree on 1. Maybe I overstated the mistake made by the tank. It's still frustrating if a player that made a bad play leaves.

I mean, of course. People won't be frustrated if everything is going well. This has kind of the energy of : "If my kids are behaving right, I don't have to beat them. It's on them. They made me do it."

Don't really get how you can say that all of those 3 are justified. You even said they are kind of sus and didn't offer any reason why it's alright what they did. I can even offer you a better example on 1. Nokhud double pull on fort with BL and CD -> wipe. Did it again -> of course another wipe. And he left. The poor DPS guy who is trying to push his 19 to a 20 because he is playing an off meta spec and has to rely on his own key is fucked.

It doesn't matter if you are frustrated. Suck it up and play the key. Sometimes you had enough and you just take the punishment. But not being punished for being a selfish dick isn't working well in multiplayer games.

It does matter. You don't owe anyone anything.

I said those are sus because you only provided info on what you perceived to be the reason for their leaving.
Which is only true if you have 1 major fuck up (like the first pull thing you said).
If someone leaves after 10-15 minutes into the run then it was most likely going poorly to begin with.

Your Nokhud example is clearly another one where it is totally justified to leave the key. It most likely won't be timed and wasting 30 mins on your life on something that starts like this is useless.

[Anzen]

So what if Completion and Beat Timer were more than just an indication in the UI but actually meant something. What if when the key was used, the key user got to pick between Completion and Beat Timer and there was a vote on the spot?

I've never been against this idea - assuming it would only be used to support matching people with shared goals.

Past this, I don't think these should be any enforcement mechanics - as that is where things get shakey (as has been described in this thread ad nauseam).

[klaps_05]

I like that there is no penalty, sometimes i logout as soon as the key start and leave group at 1 second, without talking in party or anywhere,
prevents getting reported

doubt an alt-posting chicken would be brave enough to do any of that, and even if you do, you can still be reported for breaking Player code of conduct which you signed off on logging in.

[tomten]

Funnel and focus damage on the big guy genius. If you don't have a shroud that is a perfectly viable pull and the one most groups do. If you are being stupid and putting your funnel damage on little guys and bolstering him that's a you/your group problem not the pull problem.

How to tell everyone you dont know how bolstering works without saying you dont know how bolstering works. Pulling the big guy into a double is stupid but fine, doing it into a 4 pull on fort+bolst? Yeh, no. That's as standard as pulling double whelp in AZ. Can you do it? Sure. Is it a regular pug strat? lel...
Since you think a rogue is mandatory, let me introduce you to invis pots lol...

[Twdft]

So what if Completion and Beat Timer were more than just an indication in the UI but actually meant something. What if when the key was used, the key user got to pick between Completion and Beat Timer and there was a vote on the spot?

It already does. You just have to talk to your fellow dungeoneers and make sure all 5 of you are on the same page. Instead of not even bothering to say hi and just silently start the key.

[Nymrohd]

It already does. You just have to talk to your fellow dungeoneers and make sure all 5 of you are on the same page. Instead of not even bothering to say hi and just silently start the key.

The difference being that if there is a way for the system to tag the key, we could have separate rules and then we could apply a deserter debuff on Completion runs unless there is a majority vote to drop the run.

[Twdft]

The difference being that if there is a way for the system to tag the key, we could have separate rules and then we could apply a deserter debuff on Completion runs unless there is a majority vote to drop the run.

So a run where you talked to each other, made clear beforehand that it's for the vault and while timing would be nice you really only want it completed... and still someone leaves. Do you think this someone will deserve an automatic deserter debuff 100% of the time?

[sponge5307]

Pretty sure turtle doesn't work on dots so maybe thats your main issue?

- - - Updated - - -

Hunter don't have anything that will give them 100%

Pretty stupid pull on fortified with bolstering. Why would you even bring the big dude into a 3 pull? Makes no sense.

Yup and that's the issue with turtle but that's another topic.

I do value my time. Very much. But when I signed up for a group I also took everyone else's time into consideration. It isn't just about you and your time. Think about if your the tank which I was how it slows everyone down even further compounding the issue by making them wait for a replacement and if everyone leaves then they have to wait for a new Queue again wasting even more time. nice try making it about YOUR time and not everyone else. Point is that people should work harder to stay and make the group the best they can on their part not bail because things get a little rough. That builds character outside of the game.

Just give up like me. People here don't want any form of punishment for leaving a group. They want to be able to leave any group they like, how many times they want in a day with no punishment, they don't care about 4 other's time. They want to leave for any reason even if it is a silly one. Heck I even suggest just showing them how many keys they left in a week and it gets reset weekly and that was still too much punishment for them. Just give up and move on. People simply want to be waste otherrs time by leaving. Nothing you can do unit blizzard actually start handling out punishment with like solo shuffle in PvP.

[Zodiark]

Yes, for the stated goal of the run. I you don't use "completion" option in dungeon finder when making your group don't expect anyone to stay if it looks like it's going to be 10mins over time.

I never said others should do that. Just that when things get rough people shouldn't bail. Nowadays people leave at the merest sight of adversity. I agree with the OP that something penalizing these people should be put in place.

I actually only run Mythic content these days sparingly if at all because I did that type of content to death years ago. I'm kinda over it tbh. But still I don't get involved in things half assed. If I sign up for something I do my darndest to stay until it's completed.

- - - Updated - - -

Yup and that's the issue with turtle but that's another topic.



Just give up like me. People here don't want any form of punishment for leaving a group. They want to be able to leave any group they like, how many times they want in a day with no punishment, they don't care about 4 other's time. They want to leave for any reason even if it is a silly one. Heck I even suggest just showing them how many keys they left in a week and it gets reset weekly and that was still too much punishment for them. Just give up and move on. People simply want to be waste otherrs time by leaving. Nothing you can do unit blizzard actually start handling out punishment with like solo shuffle in PvP.

Yeah I totally get it but those immature people who want to leave with no punishment are just that, Immature. Everyone's time is valuable. But some choices should carry weight. Regardless of weather it's a game or not. If you are playing a solo game by yourself then do whatever you want. But this is a multi-player game and to do current content you need others to help you and work together.

[Relapses]

Yup and that's the issue with turtle but that's another topic.



Just give up like me. People here don't want any form of punishment for leaving a group. They want to be able to leave any group they like, how many times they want in a day with no punishment, they don't care about 4 other's time. They want to leave for any reason even if it is a silly one. Heck I even suggest just showing them how many keys they left in a week and it gets reset weekly and that was still too much punishment for them. Just give up and move on. People simply want to be waste otherrs time by leaving. Nothing you can do unit blizzard actually start handling out punishment with like solo shuffle in PvP.

Instead of passive-aggressively accusing people who contest your suggestions of "wasting time," maybe provide a valid counter-argument? Or, at the very least, provide a suggestion that is not able to be abused more than what we already have.