Leaving M+ group should give you DESERTER

[Twdft]

The difference being that if there is a way for the system to tag the key, we could have separate rules and then we could apply a deserter debuff on Completion runs unless there is a majority vote to drop the run.

So a run where you talked to each other, made clear beforehand that it's for the vault and while timing would be nice you really only want it completed... and still someone leaves. Do you think this someone will deserve an automatic deserter debuff 100% of the time?

[sponge5307]

Pretty sure turtle doesn't work on dots so maybe thats your main issue?

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Hunter don't have anything that will give them 100%

Pretty stupid pull on fortified with bolstering. Why would you even bring the big dude into a 3 pull? Makes no sense.

Yup and that's the issue with turtle but that's another topic.

I do value my time. Very much. But when I signed up for a group I also took everyone else's time into consideration. It isn't just about you and your time. Think about if your the tank which I was how it slows everyone down even further compounding the issue by making them wait for a replacement and if everyone leaves then they have to wait for a new Queue again wasting even more time. nice try making it about YOUR time and not everyone else. Point is that people should work harder to stay and make the group the best they can on their part not bail because things get a little rough. That builds character outside of the game.

Just give up like me. People here don't want any form of punishment for leaving a group. They want to be able to leave any group they like, how many times they want in a day with no punishment, they don't care about 4 other's time. They want to leave for any reason even if it is a silly one. Heck I even suggest just showing them how many keys they left in a week and it gets reset weekly and that was still too much punishment for them. Just give up and move on. People simply want to be waste otherrs time by leaving. Nothing you can do unit blizzard actually start handling out punishment with like solo shuffle in PvP.

[Zodiark]

Yes, for the stated goal of the run. I you don't use "completion" option in dungeon finder when making your group don't expect anyone to stay if it looks like it's going to be 10mins over time.

I never said others should do that. Just that when things get rough people shouldn't bail. Nowadays people leave at the merest sight of adversity. I agree with the OP that something penalizing these people should be put in place.

I actually only run Mythic content these days sparingly if at all because I did that type of content to death years ago. I'm kinda over it tbh. But still I don't get involved in things half assed. If I sign up for something I do my darndest to stay until it's completed.

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Yup and that's the issue with turtle but that's another topic.



Just give up like me. People here don't want any form of punishment for leaving a group. They want to be able to leave any group they like, how many times they want in a day with no punishment, they don't care about 4 other's time. They want to leave for any reason even if it is a silly one. Heck I even suggest just showing them how many keys they left in a week and it gets reset weekly and that was still too much punishment for them. Just give up and move on. People simply want to be waste otherrs time by leaving. Nothing you can do unit blizzard actually start handling out punishment with like solo shuffle in PvP.

Yeah I totally get it but those immature people who want to leave with no punishment are just that, Immature. Everyone's time is valuable. But some choices should carry weight. Regardless of weather it's a game or not. If you are playing a solo game by yourself then do whatever you want. But this is a multi-player game and to do current content you need others to help you and work together.

[Relapses]

Yup and that's the issue with turtle but that's another topic.



Just give up like me. People here don't want any form of punishment for leaving a group. They want to be able to leave any group they like, how many times they want in a day with no punishment, they don't care about 4 other's time. They want to leave for any reason even if it is a silly one. Heck I even suggest just showing them how many keys they left in a week and it gets reset weekly and that was still too much punishment for them. Just give up and move on. People simply want to be waste otherrs time by leaving. Nothing you can do unit blizzard actually start handling out punishment with like solo shuffle in PvP.

Instead of passive-aggressively accusing people who contest your suggestions of "wasting time," maybe provide a valid counter-argument? Or, at the very least, provide a suggestion that is not able to be abused more than what we already have.

[sponge5307]

Pretty sure turtle doesn't work on dots so maybe thats your main issue?

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Pretty stupid pull on fortified with bolstering. Why would you even bring the big dude into a 3 pull? Makes no sense.

I do value my time. Very much. But when I signed up for a group I also took everyone else's time into consideration. It isn't just about you and your time. Think about if your the tank which I was how it slows everyone down even further compounding the issue by making them wait for a replacement and if everyone leaves then they have to wait for a new Queue again wasting even more time. nice try making it about YOUR time and not everyone else. Point is that people should work harder to stay and make the group the best they can on their part not bail because things get a little rough. That builds character outside of the game.

Instead of passive-aggressively accusing people who contest your suggestions of "wasting time," maybe provide a valid counter-argument? Or, at the very least, provide a suggestion that is not able to be abused more than what we already have.

Simple just show how many keys you left at what level per week. Gets reset every week. Is simple and effective. People on here kept saying people who push keys 20+ left keys all the time as soon as they won't time it and it is accept at high levels. So if it is accepted at high levels then just showing how many keys you won't affect your ability to join any 20+ keys right?

So why are people so against it? Simply put if you have have 40 times you left a 20+ keys that's pretty normal vs 30 times when you left a a sub +10 key. Why not show it so the GL and other players can see it so they can decide if they want to invite you or join your group or run with people who have left 30 times in a sub +10 key so they know the risk they are taking when they run with you.

We all know after +20 people are pushing for io so it doesn't matter how many keys you left. Yet people are still saying nononono we don't want that.

In fact let's throw some freebies first 5 keys you left won't show up in case anyone said what if I got unlucky and got a bad group. Well I am sure running into 5 bad group is likely not happening and the issue is most likely with you then. People want 0 punishment and will defend to the death lol. In fact let's have it so unless a boss is kill even if you leave the group it won't count as you leaving. I am sure right before the 1st boss is pull you would have known if the group will time the key or not? I tank and dps and after the first 2 to 3 pack I can pretty much how the run will be.

[Relapses]

Simple just show how many keys you left at what level per week. Gets reset every week. Is simple and effective. People on here kept saying people who push keys 20+ left keys all the time as soon as they won't time it and it is accept at high levels. So if it is accepted at high levels then just showing how many keys you won't affect your ability to join any 20+ keys right?

So why are people so against it? Simply put if you have have 40 times you left a 20+ keys that's pretty normal vs 30 times when you left a a sub +10 key. Why not show it so the GL and other players can see it so they can decide if they want to invite you or join your group or run with people who have left 30 times in a sub +10 key so they know the risk they are taking when they run with you.

We all know after +20 people are pushing for io so it doesn't matter how many keys you left. Yet people are still saying nononono we don't want that.

In fact let's throw some freebies first 5 keys you left won't show up in case anyone said what if I got unlucky and got a bad group. Well I am sure running into 5 bad group is likely not happening and the issue is most likely with you then. People want 0 punishment and will defend to the death lol. In fact let's have it so unless a boss is kill even if you leave the group it won't count as you leaving. I am sure right before the 1st boss is pull you would have known if the group will time the key or not? I tank and dps and after the first 2 to 3 pack I can pretty much how the run will be.

And, for the 35,000th time in this thread, how do you stop players from initiating behavior that causes other people to leave first, thereby keeping their leave percentage intact while another player takes the fall? You've completely failed to provide a legitimate reason for such a metric to exist in the first place.

[sponge5307]

And, for the 35,000th time in this thread, how do you stop players from initiating behavior that causes other people to leave first, thereby keeping their leave percentage intact while another player takes the fall? You've completely failed to provide a legitimate reason for such a metric to exist in the first place.

So what you are saying is you ran into more than 5 groups who like to troll you every week? They also like to troll you right after the first boss is down? LOL, if this happens to you, then is more of a "You" problem than it seems. After all I mention you get no penalty on the first 5 dungeons you leave and also if you leave after first boss is kill. So you get 5 freebie after the 1st is kill and leave and you get unlimited time to leave as long as no boss is down.

But what you are saying is HEY people love to troll me so they will on purpose only initiating behavior right after they kill the first boss and also make sure I am on the 6ath run where I kill a boss and left. Yea seems super unlikely.

[Relapses]

So what you are saying is you ran into more than 5 groups who like to troll you every week? They also like to troll you right after the first boss is down? LOL, if this happens to you, then is more of a "You" problem than it seems. After all I mention you get no penalty on the first 5 dungeons you leave and also if you leave before first boss is kill. So you get 5 freebie after the 1st is kill and leave and you get unlimited time to leave as long as no boss is down.

But what you are saying is HEY people love to troll me so they will on purpose only initiating behavior right after they kill the first boss and also make sure I am on the 6ath run where I kill a boss and left. Yea seems super unlikely.

???

Brother, what the actual fuck are you on about now?

I'm asking you to tell us why this system needs to exist. If (hypothetically) 90% of the WoW population never does more than 4 keys a week and it doesn't apply to the first 5 keys, why is it even there? And in the situations where it does apply, it's only providing a negative: There is now an incentive for a player who knows that leaving will effect their leave percentage to ruin a key and make somebody else (who may still be on their "free 5 leaves") leave first. It seems pointless at best, and wildly inconvenient and prone to abuse at worst. Nothing is better than the system you're describing.

[Alroxas]

The difference being that if there is a way for the system to tag the key, we could have separate rules and then we could apply a deserter debuff on Completion runs unless there is a majority vote to drop the run.

But that does nothing to the unfortunate minority that gets out voted. Let's use Bob (he's a dick anyway). Bob joins a group who holds this vote system but unfortunate for Bob, the group wants completion but Bob is only there for Beat Timer. Now Bob is "stuck" in a group that didn't bother to advertise that it's going after completion.

You have literally just held Bob hostage in an activity he didn't want. Now Bob could waste his time and try to complete the run with the rest of the group or he could play as poorly as possible so that the group votes to drop the run. Is that later something you really want? A multi-hour slog-fest where Bob "accidentally" causes wipes as he pulls extra packs, stands in fire, or any number of things that makes the dungeon run experience hell for the rest of the party?

How would you be able to tell if a player is purposely playing poorly or just a bad player. Maybe like that DLC comic, Bob decided to let his little brother (Donald from DLC) play.

Somehow the voting thing just doesn't seem to be a "better" solution.

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Simple just show how many keys you left at what level per week. Gets reset every week. Is simple and effective.

And easily abused. For instance, if your system reports the first person that leaves the party (after a keystone is started), then quite simply players who are currently leaving (for whatever reason) will now try to skirt your system by "engaging in activities to encourage someone else to leave the party first".

Here's your hypothetical scenario: Bob is in a run and he wants to leave (doesn't matter the reason) but he knows that if he leaves first, it's a black mark against his toon (let say he's about to hit that limit of 5 that you suggested). So instead of leaving (like he normally does), Bob now is set out to make someone else leave.

Maybe he starts pulling extra (by accident). Or standing in fire. Or using knockbacks after the tank has carefully grouped up a patrol for AoE. Maybe instead of accepting a battle rez, he does a manual release and starts the long run back that some dungeons are known for.

Is this any better than just having Bob leave in the first place?

[Koollan]

I will say - genuinely, I hate when people actively tank my key. Especially when I'm trying my hardest to clear +16 or higher for the Concentrated Primal, and then the tank dies to an entirely avoidable mechanic or my DPS refuse to kick an unhealable spell, which results in one, sometimes two, people leaving, which always and invariably causes my key to deplete to 15. No longer eligible for the Concentrated Primal.

If we don't want to punish this degenerate behavior, then stop punishing the people suffering from this degenerate behavior. Why do I need to have 30, 45 minutes of my time wasted upgrading my key back up to 16, 17 from 15 when I'm not even the issue? I'm 405 ilvl yet people don't take me into their keys because they're expecting 410 ilvl at this point.

Either stop key depletion entirely from leavers or severely punish leavers. There is no in between in my eyes. If someone points me at one, I can be convinced, but I'm seriously done with this. Of the 9+ attempted 16+ keys I've tried this week, 8 of them have been abandoned after one, two wipes, and my key was depleted. Disgusting degenerate behavior.

And if you're one of those people that does that, I hope that you get what's coming to you. Time is hard to come by these days, and you waste others' time by not even feigning vague interest in trying and leaving when a death bores you. Stop playing M+ if you're going to do that. We try to complete content here for rewards. Not punishing others. Assholes.

[Jester Joe]

And easily abused. For instance, if your system reports the first person that leaves the party (after a keystone is started), then quite simply players who are currently leaving (for whatever reason) will now try to skirt your system by "engaging in activities to encourage someone else to leave the party first".

Here's your hypothetical scenario: Bob is in a run and he wants to leave (doesn't matter the reason) but he knows that if he leaves first, it's a black mark against his toon (let say he's about to hit that limit of 5 that you suggested). So instead of leaving (like he normally does), Bob now is set out to make someone else leave.

Maybe he starts pulling extra (by accident). Or standing in fire. Or using knockbacks after the tank has carefully grouped up a patrol for AoE. Maybe instead of accepting a battle rez, he does a manual release and starts the long run back that some dungeons are known for.

Is this any better than just having Bob leave in the first place?

And then he gets reported and eventually action is taken against his account.

Like, it's as simple as that, people who abuse a system get eventually in trouble, is it worth having your account suspended to dodge a few penalties for quitting M+?

It's getting exhausting seeing the same claim of "it's holding them hostage" at this point. People who are joining random groups are able to decide what groups they list for, and can easily quickly check to see if the group is qualified enough before starting the key.

Join a group and realize it's full of survival hunters for some reason? Leave before starting. Don't start the key and wait 10 minutes in to quit.

There's already deterrence systems in other content but I don't see people ruining LFR/LFG groups just to get others to leave first so they can quit without a debuff. Simple fall backs like "Key is already overtime" can be added to allow people to leave without any sort of debuff.


The major issue here is that the person receiving the punishment for a player rage quitting isn't the player who rage quit, it's the person who used their key for the run. Currently the punishment is more often aimed at the wrong player.

[Relapses]

The major issue here is that the person receiving the punishment for a player rage quitting isn't the player who rage quit, it's the person who used their key for the run. Currently the punishment is more often aimed at the wrong player.

It's still aimed incorrectly under any of the punishment systems suggested. Because players will know there's punishment for leaving keys, they'll simply act in ways that make other people more likely to quit. They could, for example, stop interrupting altogether. This will lead to wipes but there's a degree of plausible deniability even though the act itself is malicious. ("Oops, my bad I just rebinded my interrupt lol") This player decided 2 minutes into the key he didn't want to be there but doesn't want the penalty so now he's actively doing everything in his power to make somebody else leave first. Is that... really the way we want to go? I can't speak for everybody I'd rather that guy just leave and try it on the next key down.

[Alroxas]

And then he gets reported and eventually action is taken against his account.

But what proof is there? Again how does any automated system actually tell if a player is purposely playing poorly?

Like, it's as simple as that, people who abuse a system get eventually in trouble, is it worth having your account suspended to dodge a few penalties for quitting M+?

Additionally the issue is players finding ways to skirt systems in place to get by. Sure eventually, they may get caught but until then the degenerate gameplay that emerges is worse than the current "negative" of a bricked key.

It's getting exhausting seeing the same claim of "it's holding them hostage" at this point. People who are joining random groups are able to decide what groups they list for, and can easily quickly check to see if the group is qualified enough before starting the key.

And that's the crux of the issue - The group leader has the power to do all of this PRIOR to starting the run. But they don't properly vet or perform due diligence. They just see: hey there's a 2.5k score player that's playing a meta class, I'm going to invite them even though my goals don't necessarily align with theirs. Then when that player leaves, the group leader gets all upset about it.

There's already deterrence systems in other content but I don't see people ruining LFR/LFG groups just to get others to leave first so they can quit without a debuff. Simple fall backs like "Key is already overtime" can be added to allow people to leave without any sort of debuff.

LFR/LFD systems assemble the groups. Whereas Group Finder the group leader does the picking. So punishment systems for LFD/LFR even solo shuffle makes sense because it's an automation thing.

How come there's not a punishment for the group leader who made the wrong pick when assembling the group? How come we aren't holding that person's accountable for not vetting the group members properly?

The major issue here is that the person receiving the punishment for a player rage quitting isn't the player who rage quit, it's the person who used their key for the run. Currently the punishment is more often aimed at the wrong player.

Maybe, but keys are also fairly plentiful until you get to very specific scenarios. And a -1 to a key isn't the worst thing in the world. May I remind you that the earliest iteration of M+ keystones had keys that would actual deplete. And you had to "recharge" them by running a depleted key in time (with no loot) to turn it back to a charged key.

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("Oops, my bad I just rebinded my interrupt lol")

Ha! It doesn't even have to be that. With the new talent trees, they could simply state that their "build" doesn't put any points into interrupt, knockback, or CCs. And since you can't change talents during a M+ (unless you step out of the instance)... It gives even more deniability.

[Relapses]

Ha! It doesn't even have to be that. With the new talent trees, they could simply state that their "build" doesn't put any points into interrupt, knockback, or CCs. And since you can't change talents during a M+ (unless you step out of the instance)... It gives even more deniability.

I feel like with the current system sometimes I get players who I think are actively working against the successful completion of the key. It's ultimately just memes because the more likely explanation is that the player just sucks. With any of these punishment systems suggested, there's a distinct possibility players are making conscious decisions to ruin keys in order to get let go earlier. That is the wrong way to fix an issue, imo.

[Jester Joe]

But what proof is there? Again how does any automated system actually tell if a player is purposely playing poorly?

All reports aren't automated.

This has been covered already several times.

I'm not interested in the "but what about the other sides flaws!!" rebuttal either. Everyone has ways to judge people's participation in m+.

If you're looking for people who are experienced, guess what, there's a neat tool to tell you how many keys they've ran, what level, and what dungeons.

On the other hand, there's no way to tell someones attitude. You can't hold both sides equally accountable, when you can easily tell what kind of level someone plays at without knowing anything about them as a person.

And it's absolutely silly to claim losing a key level is a small punishment while ALSO trying to say "but punishing people for leaving is bad!"

They're both wasting other people's times. A debuff that stops people from joining keys for a short time is less than forcing someone to redo a dungeon to push the difficulty up again.

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It's still aimed incorrectly under any of the punishment systems suggested. Because players will know there's punishment for leaving keys, they'll simply act in ways that make other people more likely to quit. They could, for example, stop interrupting altogether. This will lead to wipes but there's a degree of plausible deniability even though the act itself is malicious. ("Oops, my bad I just rebinded my interrupt lol") This player decided 2 minutes into the key he didn't want to be there but doesn't want the penalty so now he's actively doing everything in his power to make somebody else leave first. Is that... really the way we want to go? I can't speak for everybody I'd rather that guy just leave and try it on the next key down.

As I've said before though, the right level of punishment is all that's needed.

I have doubts that there would be some widespread "just vaguely troll instead!", if the punishment is just a simple like, 15-30 minutes debuff that you can't do keys for.

Because nothing ensures that people are going to leave before you, would you rather just keep pounding your head into a wall praying someone leaves or just leave and do something else yourself?

[Relapses]

As I've said before though, the right level of punishment is all that's needed.

I have doubts that there would be some widespread "just vaguely troll instead!", if the punishment is just a simple like, 15-30 minutes debuff that you can't do keys for.

Because nothing ensures that people are going to leave before you, would you rather just keep pounding your head into a wall praying someone leaves or just leave and do something else yourself?

...which once again brings the discussion back to, "if the punishment isn't enough, why bother putting it in the first place?"

Look -- I'm not gonna circle the drain with you on this topic. It's clear you and I are approaching this from opposite ends of the same spectrum. I get where you're coming from on a conceptual level. I just know that this game is full of sociopaths and I'd rather not have a layered system that encourages passive aggressive play from random people in my 5 mans. You speak as if this would fix a problem but I can only see it making the problem worse. Yeah, it sucks when some douchenozzle bricks your key. I think almost everybody contributing to this topic feels the same way here. But it's my firm belief the only way a system which relies on total anonymity can succeed is if there are as few limiting factors for leaving as possible. Limiting factors for leaving only make sense for cooperative multiplayer when there's a collective interest in either succeeding or failing. For M+, that would mean either gaining score for completing a key or losing score for depleting a key; and since the latter factor simply doesn't happen under the current system, I don't see the harm in leaving it the way it is.

[Jester Joe]

...which once again brings the discussion back to, "if the punishment isn't enough, why bother putting it in the first place?"

Look -- I'm not gonna circle the drain with you on this topic. It's clear you and I are approaching this from opposite ends of the same spectrum. I get where you're coming from on a conceptual level. I just know that this game is full of sociopaths and I'd rather not have a layered system that encourages passive aggressive play from random people in my 5 mans. You speak as if this would fix a problem but I can only see it making the problem worse. Yeah, it sucks when some douchenozzle bricks your key. I think almost everybody contributing to this topic feels the same way here. But it's my firm belief the only way a system which relies on total anonymity can succeed is if there are as few limiting factors for leaving as possible. Limiting factors for leaving only make sense for cooperative multiplayer when there's a collective interest in either succeeding or failing. For M+, that would mean either gaining score for completing a key or losing score for depleting a key; and since the latter factor simply doesn't happen under the current system, I don't see the harm in leaving it the way it is.

Likewise, I don't understand this idea of "if it isn't enough..."

It's not meant to be a crippling punishment. I've been clear about that from the start, it's meant to be a "You can either put in the effort and spend 20ish-30ish minutes finishing the key, or you can bite the bullet and just not do a key for that long by leaving".

If people would rather have keys that they can leave, then they should play with friends who can decide as a group "Yeah this is bricked, let's do something else", not joining random keys and just leaving. It's basically the WoW version of the shopping cart test, and if they can't pass such a simple situation then perhaps they shouldn't be pugging content.

Just because there isn't a score decrease for depleting keys doesn't change the flaw that if someone's key is depleted, they're the ones now stuck in the situation of having to push it back up, which takes another 20-30 minutes of running the dungeon again which could just lead to the same issue. The current system punishes those who are taking initiative to offer their key, not the ones who act like dicks and just leave. That's what I would call a flawed system that needs analysis, not "Eh, it's fine, just leave it". Whether or not you agree with the proposed ideas from players doesn't change that.

[Tech614]

Likewise, I don't understand this idea of "if it isn't enough..."

It's not meant to be a crippling punishment. I've been clear about that from the start, it's meant to be a "You can either put in the effort and spend 20ish-30ish minutes finishing the key, or you can bite the bullet and just not do a key for that long by leaving".

If people would rather have keys that they can leave, then they should play with friends who can decide as a group "Yeah this is bricked, let's do something else", not joining random keys and just leaving. It's basically the WoW version of the shopping cart test, and if they can't pass such a simple situation then perhaps they shouldn't be pugging content.

Just because there isn't a score decrease for depleting keys doesn't change the flaw that if someone's key is depleted, they're the ones now stuck in the situation of having to push it back up, which takes another 20-30 minutes of running the dungeon again which could just lead to the same issue. The current system punishes those who are taking initiative to offer their key, not the ones who act like dicks and just leave. That's what I would call a flawed system that needs analysis, not "Eh, it's fine, just leave it". Whether or not you agree with the proposed ideas from players doesn't change that.

Honestly they could just make keys under a certain level not go down a level at all unless you complete it and it wouldn't change a single thing about the game's competitive balance. I'm surprised they haven't. At the high end people could abuse it but I don't know why it's still a thing for lower keys.

[Jester Joe]

Honestly they could just make keys under a certain level not go down a level at all unless you complete it and it wouldn't change a single thing about the game's competitive balance. I'm surprised they haven't. At the high end people could abuse it but I don't know why it's still a thing for lower keys.

I mean, I'd be perfectly happy with that solution too. If people want to keep resetting their key just to keep retrying a higher key, by all means, it's still a timesink they're investing into the key to get that perfect run, instead of just having to do random dungeons hoping to reroll that one key that they need again at a high level.

[Nymrohd]

I mean, I'd be perfectly happy with that solution too. If people want to keep resetting their key just to keep retrying a higher key, by all means, it's still a timesink they're investing into the key to get that perfect run, instead of just having to do random dungeons hoping to reroll that one key that they need again at a high level.

One simple solution to that issue would be for the key to not deplete to require a certain run time. So if you just run in, activate it then brick it, it will deplete. But if you run it and you deplete it after e.g. 10 mins, it is not depleted.