Leaving M+ group should give you DESERTER

[chiddie]

I feel Jester Joe is really unappreciated in this thread.

He's out here, fighting the corner for the whole pro-punishment camp, stating that any argument against them is some form of logical fallacy, yet the people on his side of the argument are out here debating with points like this...

It must be painful.






If these posters are not exagerrating, do you not think it a coincidence that only certain forum members seem to experience people constantly leaving? Most in this thread have stated that it's a total non-issue.

I'd actually go as far to say I have a theory for why this happens (call it cognitive bias)... Let's saying we're doing the first boss of CoS in a relatively high level key (15+). Let's say two DPS die because they are not clearing the arcane lockdown debuff and we wipe. Let's say the healer leaves. For those that have raid frames and debuffs showing (perhaps the tank and other DPS), they would have noticed that the other DPS were not clearing the debuff. For the DPS that died (and I accept that they may not know why they died), they may conlude it was a healing issue - and become angry at the bad healer for leaving the run 'for no reason'. I mean just in this thread alone, how many stories end in 'then the healer left for no reason'.

In my experience, it is extremely rare for someone to leave for absolutely no reason. I'd suggest that if you think/experience multiple people leaving 'for no reason', you probably don't understand the reasons for it and very well may be the cause.

I will speak for myself, of course. It was not “constant” of course, but it happened. Now, this may not be an issue when you can afford 10 hours sessions, but when you have 1 hour or so sessions, given the time it takes to form or enter a group and enter the dungeon, a leave mid to end key means a completely wasted session.

Having a lot of spare time is not a skill, you have it or you don’t. If you don’t there’s not much you can do about it and group activities like M+ become a nightmare, also because unlike random BGs for example (that I also ditched because of waiting times) you can’t do anything else while trying to form or enter a group for M+.

[Anzen]

I will speak for myself, of course. It was not “constant” of course, but it happened. Now, this may not be an issue when you can afford 10 hours sessions, but when you have 1 hour or so sessions, given the time it takes to form or enter a group and enter the dungeon, a leave mid to end key means a completely wasted session.

Having a lot of spare time is not a skill, you have it or you don’t. If you don’t there’s not much you can do about it and group activities like M+ become a nightmare, also because unlike random BGs for example (that I also ditched because of waiting times) you can’t do anything else while trying to form or enter a group for M+.

I'm certainly not playing for 10 hours at a time (in my dreams), usually I can get away with an hour or two. Most dungeons have clear times of around 30 minutes, so it's obviously an extreme example of yours where people would leave right at the end of the run.

In my personal experience, I have found this scenario to be practically non-existent as you can usually tell how good players are pretty early on, and any people dropping the group usually happens near/on the first boss. In this more common scenario, you would likely have time to get another run in.*

People don't (or if you believe this thread, let's settle on 'rarely') leave runs for no reason. What would be the point of total strangers wasting their own time joining groups, getting half way through and then leaving, for no benefit? They will likely never meet the players again.

*Depending on what role you play. As a healer, I can join groups in about 5 minutes, whereas as a DPS I know it can take much longer. As a non-meta DPS, who might be wanting to push higher than they've currently done, you could probably spend all day queueing.

[Stormwolf64]

There is no easy solution. You might leave not because you're failing the time or people aren't good enough for the key, but sometimes people start to bicker and the tank or healer starts throwing tantrums like "I'm gonna stop tanking/healing" and you're then forced to just stand there like an idiot if you can't leave the group.

[kaelix1]

are you new here?

anyway, people that beg for deserter need to just play better so people don't leave their cursed groups.

Such a dumb replay, i had a guy yesterday that left the group after he ninja pull the first elemental in shadowmoon and died, how the duck you want the rest to 'get' better in that situation, want another one? DH left after dying in HOV after getting cleave like a moron by the adds, what about a mage the left in HOV after the first pull because the tank refused to pull all 3 packs at the start and only pul 2 i don't even want to start on tank, especially the huge number of obvious dumb warrior tanks, literally had a tank left 2 days ago from my group because he misclick and pulled another group and wiped us during already double pull

[Valysar]

If you quit, you loose 10% of your RIO, simple. Nah kidding

[Anzen]

There is no easy solution. You might leave not because you're failing the time or people aren't good enough for the key, but sometimes people start to bicker and the tank or healer starts throwing tantrums like "I'm gonna stop tanking/healing" and you're then forced to just stand there like an idiot if you can't leave the group.

I agree with the view that once people start to bicker, the run is effectively over.

But this is yet further reason to counter the notion suggested earlier in this thread, that players should teach other players their shortcomings (instead of leaving group).

In the very, very, very few occassions I've said "DH, these mobs do a frontal cleave that does a lot of damage, please stop standing in front of them", I'm met with "lol stfu and l2 heal retard" many more times than I'm met with "thanks for the useful feedback, I did not know that, I'll keep that in mind going forward".

The best option, in my experience of playing the game for longer than I care to admit, is to keep your head down and mouth shut, or just leave.

[Lolites]

The buff from Thundering is commonly wasted.

yeah, i "love" it when we get the buff and some prick run to me immediately to drop it...
i had so many keys where people do this and then we finish just few seconds after time...

[Stormwolf64]

I agree with the view that once people start to bicker, the run is effectively over.

But this is yet further reason to counter the notion suggested earlier in this thread, that players should teach other players their shortcomings (instead of leaving group).

In the very, very, very few occassions I've said "DH, these mobs do a frontal cleave that does a lot of damage, please stop standing in front of them", I'm met with "lol stfu and l2 heal retard" many more times than I'm met with "thanks for the useful feedback, I did not know that, I'll keep that in mind going forward".

The best option, in my experience of playing the game for longer than I care to admit, is to keep your head down and mouth shut, or just leave.

We can't be that naive anymore to think people are receptible enough to accept being taught how to play. No matter how you think it should be so, it's just not. People get angry once you start telling them to do this or that instead. And sadly even if person gets mad regardless how you phrase it, a lot phrase it less than delicately.

[erifwodahs]

For tanks that didn't plan for prideful, I can expect it was a complete nightmare. An OOM healer or it spawning in the middle of an already big trash pull could quickly spell disaster. That said, if memory serves correct, it didn't reset health?

That was my first season pushing actually high keys as a tank (picked up tanking in S4 BfA, but only managed to do some 20s) - there was a massive learning curve to begin with but it was very satisfying when all pieces fall into places. I couldn't play tank if it did not involve overall responsibility of the flow and the speed of the dungeon - tanking mechanically is boring af, it's the whole experience which delivers satisfaction (for me at least)

[Alroxas]

Yeah, something needs to happen. It's way to easy to ruin a key.

Until a better solution comes along the best practice so far is that for keys that matter to you, only play with players you trust.

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your first scenario shows exactly one of the advantages of the design: your scenario will rarely happen. because the mentioned design put value into „consider first what to do with which ppls“. the design soft-enforces that your Bob-type player will not even start running with the other 4 player types, if it is not clear that all have the same „how we handle it“ in mind. (sorry, it’s my bad english)

Some WoW players will always try to min/max the game to the point where they will do the exact scenario listed because it helps themselves. If Bob only cares about his play time and his goals then when a mismatch occurs then he's going to try to save as much of his time as possible.

Currently, this means Bob just leaves the group. But with any kind of punishment system for the 1st leaver, then Bob will make it his job to quickly cause someone else to be the "1st leaver" so he doesn't get punished and can get out of the key.

Bottom line - No punishment system can exist for M+ because it ultimately holds players hostage in a less than ideal scenario. The Stick isn't going to work because the anonymity and wide scope of players means that if Bob leaves, the probability of you running into Bob again is very low.

here is why: the other ppls wanna make clear, no one leaves, because they just wanna finish the dungeon.

True but not everyone just wants to "finish" the dungeon if it's going to take a long time (more than 40% over the dungeon timer). If Bob is only looking for improving his score then it is a waste of his time as soon as the probability of finishing the key in time is gone. But remember that's Bob's goal, it doesn't necessarily match the rest of the group.

Hence why I keep saying that it's vital to check and recheck with your party members that the goal of the run is agreed upon by everyone. Is this a timed/push run? Is it just for weekly vault (aka completion only)? Etc etc.

The problem is that most players ASSUME that whey they join a group, the goal is finish in time (as the default option) and unless otherwise stated. If folks want to reduce the amount of leavers, then communicate more prior to starting a key. Make sure everyone is on the same goal/objective THEN start the run.

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Wouldn't it be easier to just let players hit pause in a dungeon if need be? So add a Vote to Pause and if the dungeon is paused, your characters get locked in place and nothing moves (your CDs stop ticking down as does the timer etc). You can still chat, you can enter LFG and look for a new person if it is what is needed. Add a small penalty to pausing (equivalent to 1 Death?) so people don't abuse it. If someone leaves the group, you automatically get paused. It would solve so many issues beyond just leavers (crying children, screaming elderly parents, irritable bowels?)

So then instead of leavers, you get a whole slew more of carry groups. Now you can have a Pro team do 98% of a +24 (finishing the last boss but needs 0.5% of count to finish), then drop X players to pull in X "carries".

Somehow I think that's a worse thing than the current number of actual percentage of leavers (including toxic ones).

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No system is perfect, also if somebody dies on purpose like 20 times in 5minutes, it easy report for griefing, already done already got somebody banned so ?

If you dont like it then make your own group with friends and dont bother

Hey don't look at me, I have a group of reliable folks to run M+ AND I also do a fair amount of PuG. I'm merely highlighting the issues with the punishment systems that penalize folks for leaving before "X" happens.

And like others have commented, how can you distinguish the motives behind someone playing poorly? Are they intentionally dying on purpose or do they honestly don't realize the mechanic or the "proper" strategy for handling the mechanic?

Yes we all like to believe that at +10 or higher keys that players should KNOW how to handle mechanics but that's not always the case.

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As proven people here will say no to any form of punishment. Maybe they are they ones who like to leave even with just 1 death or doesn't like the route the tank is taking or maybe they don't even like mogs people use in their group. They want to be able to leave with no punishment AT ALL So they can do this all day everyday.

No because it means that it would hold players hostage in groups they no longer want to be in. Additionally there has not been a proposed punishment system that have automated safeguards preventing player abuse of said system.

Heck I even mention maybe just a system that shows how many times you left a key for the week so when they apply for a group the GL can decide if they want to take the risk and invite a person who left xxx times already. But nope people here don't even want that. That just tell you how this community is.

Which again just means that players will attempt to "game" the system so that someone else leaves first so they can keep their pristine record. If you already have players leaving keys so no-Untimed runs (completed runs over time) show up in their r.io page, don't you think these same players would somehow cause others to "leave first"? So now instead of Bob just leaving (for whatever reason), now you have Bob trying to get someone else to leave via playing poorly and further wasting more of other players' time.

[Jester Joe]

I feel Jester Joe is really unappreciated in this thread.

He's out here, fighting the corner for the whole pro-punishment camp, stating that any argument against them is some form of logical fallacy, yet the people on his side of the argument are out here debating with points like this...

It must be painful.






If these posters are not exagerrating, do you not think it a coincidence that only certain forum members seem to experience people constantly leaving? Most in this thread have stated that it's a total non-issue.

I'd actually go as far to say I have a theory for why this happens (call it cognitive bias)... Let's saying we're doing the first boss of CoS in a relatively high level key (15+). Let's say two DPS die because they are not clearing the arcane lockdown debuff and we wipe. Let's say the healer leaves. For those that have raid frames and debuffs showing (perhaps the tank and other DPS), they would have noticed that the other DPS were not clearing the debuff. For the DPS that died (and I accept that they may not know why they died), they may conlude it was a healing issue - and become angry at the bad healer for leaving the run 'for no reason'. I mean just in this thread alone, how many stories end in 'then the healer left for no reason'.

In my experience, it is extremely rare for someone to leave for absolutely no reason. I'd suggest that if you think/experience multiple people leaving 'for no reason', you probably don't understand the reasons for it and very well may be the cause.

I mean, I have stated from the start that I feel like people playing at the top where there's rarely mistakes or the key is dead, fail to realize the playing field of lower keys where people get all like "THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN A 15 MINUTE KEY MY TIME IS WASTED NOW" and rage quit.

Like someone just tried to dismiss that because "it was a +5"

Why does that matter? The issue is people leaving face no consequence at the end of the day. I'm not here to claim either that there should be some massive punishment, I still stand by that a debuff should be enough similar to other group content. Something that just makes people think "well, I can be done with this key in less than 30 minutes still so I might as well stick it out".

I also find it weird that people want to insist the issue can be solved just by picking better groups that won't fall apart yet don't also want to accept that also applies to groups you want to leave because of a bad player.

[sponge5307]

Until a better solution comes along the best practice so far is that for keys that matter to you, only play with players you trust.

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Some WoW players will always try to min/max the game to the point where they will do the exact scenario listed because it helps themselves. If Bob only cares about his play time and his goals then when a mismatch occurs then he's going to try to save as much of his time as possible.

Currently, this means Bob just leaves the group. But with any kind of punishment system for the 1st leaver, then Bob will make it his job to quickly cause someone else to be the "1st leaver" so he doesn't get punished and can get out of the key.

Bottom line - No punishment system can exist for M+ because it ultimately holds players hostage in a less than ideal scenario. The Stick isn't going to work because the anonymity and wide scope of players means that if Bob leaves, the probability of you running into Bob again is very low.




True but not everyone just wants to "finish" the dungeon if it's going to take a long time (more than 40% over the dungeon timer). If Bob is only looking for improving his score then it is a waste of his time as soon as the probability of finishing the key in time is gone. But remember that's Bob's goal, it doesn't necessarily match the rest of the group.

Hence why I keep saying that it's vital to check and recheck with your party members that the goal of the run is agreed upon by everyone. Is this a timed/push run? Is it just for weekly vault (aka completion only)? Etc etc.

The problem is that most players ASSUME that whey they join a group, the goal is finish in time (as the default option) and unless otherwise stated. If folks want to reduce the amount of leavers, then communicate more prior to starting a key. Make sure everyone is on the same goal/objective THEN start the run.

- - - Updated - - -



So then instead of leavers, you get a whole slew more of carry groups. Now you can have a Pro team do 98% of a +24 (finishing the last boss but needs 0.5% of count to finish), then drop X players to pull in X "carries".

Somehow I think that's a worse thing than the current number of actual percentage of leavers (including toxic ones).

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Hey don't look at me, I have a group of reliable folks to run M+ AND I also do a fair amount of PuG. I'm merely highlighting the issues with the punishment systems that penalize folks for leaving before "X" happens.

And like others have commented, how can you distinguish the motives behind someone playing poorly? Are they intentionally dying on purpose or do they honestly don't realize the mechanic or the "proper" strategy for handling the mechanic?

Yes we all like to believe that at +10 or higher keys that players should KNOW how to handle mechanics but that's not always the case.

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No because it means that it would hold players hostage in groups they no longer want to be in. Additionally there has not been a proposed punishment system that have automated safeguards preventing player abuse of said system.



Which again just means that players will attempt to "game" the system so that someone else leaves first so they can keep their pristine record. If you already have players leaving keys so no-Untimed runs (completed runs over time) show up in their r.io page, don't you think these same players would somehow cause others to "leave first"? So now instead of Bob just leaving (for whatever reason), now you have Bob trying to get someone else to leave via playing poorly and further wasting more of other players' time.

100% You are right, and I am wrong. In fact, we should roll out the red carpet treatment for the 1st person leaving a group. Not only they will be rewarded with 100k gold in the mail but also their vault will be filled instantly with mythic raid gear and they can go and pick them all at once. That's right all 6 slots (3 for raid and 3 for m+) can be had at once. Also, there is no limit on how many times they can do this.

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Such a dumb replay, i had a guy yesterday that left the group after he ninja pull the first elemental in shadowmoon and died, how the duck you want the rest to 'get' better in that situation, want another one? DH left after dying in HOV after getting cleave like a moron by the adds, what about a mage the left in HOV after the first pull because the tank refused to pull all 3 packs at the start and only pul 2 i don't even want to start on tank, especially the huge number of obvious dumb warrior tanks, literally had a tank left 2 days ago from my group because he misclick and pulled another group and wiped us during already double pull

Nope the person leaving is never at fault according to everyone here. Is always someone fault other than the person leaving. In fact the person leaving is doing everyone a favour so now the group can be disband. He should get a red carpet treatment not being blame on.

[onlypumps]

This wouldn't work cause m+ for many players is not just about gear it's about gaining score. If you are solo queuing depleted keys really hurt you when trying to join higher level pugs. If you want people to stay advertise your key as a to completion group or join groups who are listing the same. No timer removes the competitive nature of M+

[sponge5307]

I mean, I have stated from the start that I feel like people playing at the top where there's rarely mistakes or the key is dead, fail to realize the playing field of lower keys where people get all like "THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN A 15 MINUTE KEY MY TIME IS WASTED NOW" and rage quit.

Like someone just tried to dismiss that because "it was a +5"

Why does that matter? The issue is people leaving face no consequence at the end of the day. I'm not here to claim either that there should be some massive punishment, I still stand by that a debuff should be enough similar to other group content. Something that just makes people think "well, I can be done with this key in less than 30 minutes still so I might as well stick it out".

I also find it weird that people want to insist the issue can be solved just by picking better groups that won't fall apart yet don't also want to accept that also applies to groups you want to leave because of a bad player.

Slow down a min and think why people here don't want any form of punishment at all for leaving a group. Could it be they are the ones doing it and you suggesting giving them even a tiny bit of punishment will expose them and make the game, not as fun for them?

[Anzen]

100% You are right, and I am wrong. In fact, we should roll out the red carpet treatment for the 1st person leaving a group. Not only they will be rewarded with 100k gold in the mail but also their vault will be filled instantly with mythic raid gear and they can go and pick them all at once. That's right all 6 slots (3 for raid and 3 for m+) can be had at once. Also, there is no limit on how many times they can do this.

Nope the person leaving is never at fault according to everyone here. Is always someone fault other than the person leaving. In fact the person leaving is doing everyone a favour so now the group can be disband. He should get a red carpet treatment not being blame on.

YOu are right we should keep it. In fact we have promote people from leaving. If you leave a group first not only get you 100k gold mail to you but also all your vault will be with mythic raiding gear and you can claim it right away. There is also no donwtime so you can do this all day everyday and every group you join. That should be fair as it reward people who left.

Are you OK ?

Slow down a min and think why people here don't want any form of punishment at all for leaving a group. Could it be they are the ones doing it and you suggesting giving them even a tiny bit of punishment will expose them and make the game, not as fun for them?

Yes, that's exactly why. You obviously have opposing views but that perfectly encapsulates my stance, thank you.

[sponge5307]

Are you OK ?

Yes, that's exactly why. You obviously have opposing views but that perfectly encapsulates my stance, thank you.

What! I am 100% supporting your views with arms and feet in the air. We should 100% give compensation for the 1st person to leave a group. Appreciation needs to be shown to people who love to waste others' time and brick their keys. We need to shower these players with gold and loot to show much of a service they are doing to the WoW pugging community.

Leaving a group and causing others to be miserable is the best thing that happens to WoW. Why would we want to punish anyone for doing that? I am 100% with you. We should not put any punishment or blame for people leaving.

In fact no punishment should be place on any players for leaving in PvE and PvP content.

[Relapses]

What! I am 100% supporting your views with arms and feet in the air. We should 100% give compensation for the 1st person to leave a group. Appreciation needs to be shown to people who love to waste others' time and brick their keys. We need to shower these players with gold and loot to show much of a service they are doing to the WoW pugging community.

Leaving a group and causing others to be miserable is the best thing that happens to WoW. Why would we want to punish anyone for doing that? I am 100% with you. We should not put any punishment or blame for people leaving.

In fact no punishment should be place on any players for leaving in PvE and PvP content.

You suck at sarcasm.

Enlighten us. How would you prevent abuse of a leave system?

[chiddie]

I'm certainly not playing for 10 hours at a time (in my dreams), usually I can get away with an hour or two. Most dungeons have clear times of around 30 minutes, so it's obviously an extreme example of yours where people would leave right at the end of the run.

In my personal experience, I have found this scenario to be practically non-existent as you can usually tell how good players are pretty early on, and any people dropping the group usually happens near/on the first boss. In this more common scenario, you would likely have time to get another run in.*

People don't (or if you believe this thread, let's settle on 'rarely') leave runs for no reason. What would be the point of total strangers wasting their own time joining groups, getting half way through and then leaving, for no benefit? They will likely never meet the players again.

*Depending on what role you play. As a healer, I can join groups in about 5 minutes, whereas as a DPS I know it can take much longer. As a non-meta DPS, who might be wanting to push higher than they've currently done, you could probably spend all day queueing.

You nailed the point with the * part.

Casuals usually play dps for obvious reasons (solo open world performances). Dps have a really hard time in entering M+ due to the vast majority of players (both casuals and not casuals) being dps too. Often a failed run means a wasted session, especially if as I said sessions are short.

Notice that I have no problems with that, but please let’s stop pretending that M+ is casual friendly.

[Alroxas]

Slow down a min and think why people here don't want any form of punishment at all for leaving a group. Could it be they are the ones doing it and you suggesting giving them even a tiny bit of punishment will expose them and make the game, not as fun for them?

Or is it because they used critical thinking and thought through what those "punishment" systems would likely cause as a by-product?

Consider the various scenarios:

Currently, Bob doesn't like the run (for whatever reason) and leaves. Yeah the group "wasted" X amount of time and the key is gone. Individual members go find another group.

System A: Punishes first player that leaves or DC. Bob doesn't like the run but doesn't want the punishment. Now Bob continues to "waste" the rest of the groups time by making DAMN sure it's going to go as long as possible until someone else leaves and Bob can now leave without a negative mark on his account. So instead of just wasting X time, you're now looking at X+Y time but now it involves everyone.

System B: Uses some form of voting to either abandon or stop the run. Again if Bob doesn't like the run AND he's in the minority then he can still make things more difficult until another vote is held.

System C: Some form of being able to replace a member that leaves. Now instead of worrying about leavers, you get a different issue that M+ turns into a carry fest. Do the dungeon with the first team but save the last 1% (or less) of trash left, switch out members for the carries then finish.

Still haven't seen any good robust "punishment" system that has automated safeguards against exploiting or gaming the "punishment" system.


And as a counterpoint, Blizzard HAS provided "carrot" incentives to stick around. Going slightly over time (less that 40% of timer) still gives points towards score. Loot still drops at End of Dungeon chest (albeit one will have lower ilv) and finishing dungeon still counts for weekly Great Vault.

[Azharok]

Like someone just tried to dismiss that because "it was a +5

I wasn't trying to dismiss that the key being a +5 made it okay to leave the key, more the fact that the healer thought that they couldn't finish based on the damage the tank took, had the healer pressed more buttons I'm sure they would've been able to finish even with less than a competent tank. Hell you could probably have a warlock pet tank bosses and trash.

My general thought process was also more close to : I'd rather not they implemented a punishment system for what happens in small keys (sub 15s) that would cover all key levels.