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  1. #761
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Alternatively, before entering the dungeon and starting the run, do a quick inspection of the party. Honestly I'm a bit surprised there isn't a Weak Aura or addon that can summarize the group details.
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    It's not a problem inspecting peoples gear/IO after you get invited to the party - obviously I'd expect everyone to do a quick inspection of the party before starting the run. It is annoying having no idea what the party members are like before you get invited.

    I'm not really talking about myself though - I'm a relatively high rated/geared healer, it takes me minutes to get in to groups.

    I was speaking on behalf of hypothetical DPS players, who might spend ages and ages queueing to get into runs, finally getting accepted, to find out that half the group is in levelling gear. Sure they can immediately leave, but it seems like a clunky way to do things.

  2. #762
    Light comes from darkness shise's Avatar
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    Why bother doing M+ if not with friends?

    The game design is cancerous if you attempt to pug it. Just avoid it and save yourself the headache

  3. #763
    Quote Originally Posted by oplawlz View Post
    The system would take a lot of work to get right. You'd need a vote to kick system that refunded the key if the guy getting kicked didn't own it, escalating penalties, and tracking for people abusing the system. Blizzard isn't going to do any of that because they couldn't charge you for it.

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    I doubt it.
    But many more people would start pugging keys. Only reason my friends and I don't is because people can waste our time/key with no consequences.
    Why? I can just run with friends instead of doing it anytime I wanted like now.

    I mean you can run keys now, I pug a ton of keys and get most of my KSM that way, I think I've had maybe 5 leavers in the last three expansions? It's not some epidemic, if it always happens to you maybe you're just bad.

  4. #764
    Quote Originally Posted by Anchorite View Post
    I mean you can run keys now, I pug a ton of keys and get most of my KSM that way, I think I've had maybe 5 leavers in the last three expansions?
    If no one is leaving why would a penalty hurt anything?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Nah nah, see... I live by one simple creed: You might catch more flies with honey, but to catch honeys you gotta be fly.

  5. #765
    Quote Originally Posted by oplawlz View Post
    If no one is leaving why would a penalty hurt anything?
    Every time I see this argument, I recoil in my chair in cringe. You know as well as every one else that this wilfully ignores the fundamental issues discussed in this thread.

    In the keys that Anchorite did experience leavers, you have no way of knowing whether the reasons for leaving were justified or not, yet you'd happily suggest implementing penalties on them.

    What about the repercussions that have been discussed - instead of receive punishments for leaving, what's to stop me as a healer, forgetting to heal various party members? Doh, my addons have bugged out and I can now only see my health frame? Oopsy, I've only gone and backpedalled into a patrol. My doorbell keeps ringing and I have to keep going to get it.

    I don't experience leaving that often, but in the few cases I have, it was entirely justifiable (whether I left or someone else). The scenario of people randomly dropping groups that were going perfectly is one that only exists in MMOC posters heads and this thread.

    In the extremely rare instances that someone has to leave a group genuinely randomly - e.g. their mum has fallen down the stairs and is unconscious - you really think a deserter debuff will prevent them from leaving the group? Stupid.
    Last edited by Anzen; 2023-01-20 at 08:30 AM.

  6. #766
    Quote Originally Posted by Anzen View Post
    Every time I see this argument, I recoil in my chair in cringe. You know as well as every one else that this wilfully ignores the fundamental issues discussed in this thread.
    Man the amount of mental gymnastics you people will do to try and convince the world you're not the asshats who leave because you decided to pull 3 extra packs, wiped the group and fucked the timer is impressive. I mean Nan broke her hip? Holy shit man, that's right up there with "afk cat on fire"
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Nah nah, see... I live by one simple creed: You might catch more flies with honey, but to catch honeys you gotta be fly.

  7. #767
    Quote Originally Posted by oplawlz View Post
    Man the amount of mental gymnastics you people will do to try and convince the world you're not the asshats who leave because you decided to pull 3 extra packs, wiped the group and fucked the timer is impressive. I mean Nan broke her hip? Holy shit man, that's right up there with "afk cat on fire"
    > "mental gymnastics you people to will do" - ignores every point made.
    > next sentence sets up a strawman to argue against "try and convince the world you're not the asshats who leave because you decided to pull 3 extra packs, wiped the group and fucked the timer is impressive"

    Awkward. All the while being unable to read because the anti-punishment group is very open in this thread about the fact that leaving very rarely happens in their experience. Makes you wonder why some people seem to experience people leaving regularly, and some don't...

    My obviously extreme example of why someone might have to leave was meant to try support your argument that people do leave randomly. But you decided to argue against it /facepalm... in that case, I won't try to help you, let's just agree that no-one leaves groups randomly so punishments don't make sense.

    Honestly take your time coming up with your next reply, your last one was plain dumb.
    Last edited by Anzen; 2023-01-20 at 09:01 AM.

  8. #768
    Quote Originally Posted by oplawlz View Post
    Man the amount of mental gymnastics you people will do to try and convince the world you're not the asshats who leave because you decided to pull 3 extra packs, wiped the group and fucked the timer is impressive. I mean Nan broke her hip? Holy shit man, that's right up there with "afk cat on fire"
    I've had both happen (but thankfully was not playing WoW at the time).

  9. #769
    Quote Originally Posted by Anzen View Post
    Every time I see this argument, I recoil in my chair in cringe. You know as well as every one else that this wilfully ignores the fundamental issues discussed in this thread.

    In the keys that Anchorite did experience leavers, you have no way of knowing whether the reasons for leaving were justified or not, yet you'd happily suggest implementing penalties on them.

    What about the repercussions that have been discussed - instead of receive punishments for leaving, what's to stop me as a healer, forgetting to heal various party members? Doh, my addons have bugged out and I can now only see my health frame? Oopsy, I've only gone and backpedalled into a patrol. My doorbell keeps ringing and I have to keep going to get it.

    I don't experience leaving that often, but in the few cases I have, it was entirely justifiable (whether I left or someone else). The scenario of people randomly dropping groups that were going perfectly is one that only exists in MMOC posters heads and this thread.

    In the extremely rare instances that someone has to leave a group genuinely randomly - e.g. their mum has fallen down the stairs and is unconscious - you really think a deserter debuff will prevent them from leaving the group? Stupid.
    Bottom line is, this game(as any online game) is riddled with morons. Just last night, did a dungeon on my priest. The DK tank pulled half the brackenhide instance before first boss and dies. He goes on raging in chat telling everyone what they did wrong. He goes again, pulls everything. Dies. Rages and complain that people lack this and that. He got high io everyone else suck blablabla.

    Clearly this person thought that everyone is like him. Clearly he though before going into the dungeon with 4 strangers that everyone would know what to do, what he would do etc.

    Its just yet another example of asshats in an online game.

    I think a deserter button surely would hold value in m+, but I suspect it could(will) get abused somehow.

    With m+, Blizzard is telling us that we decide the group to go with. In dungeon finder, the game does. Thats the difference.

  10. #770
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    With m+, Blizzard is telling us that we decide the group to go with. In dungeon finder, the game does. Thats the difference.
    You only really decide if you are making the group though. Otherwise you are just picking a group based on the leader. ANd especially if you are dps, you cannot really afford to be that picky if you have small windows of playtime and don't want to waste them all looking for group.

  11. #771
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    You only really decide if you are making the group though. Otherwise you are just picking a group based on the leader. ANd especially if you are dps, you cannot really afford to be that picky if you have small windows of playtime and don't want to waste them all looking for group.
    I am not that picky, but even as dps I have limits. For example I don't mind much a tank boosting his undergeared friend but if that friend still has greens in m+ when 343 blues cost peanuts I'm out (also if said friend is from a different server as the tank).

    Or lack of greetings. Over the years I pugged enough to... dislike... silent groups where nobody else can be arsed to type literally two letters in chat.

    Of course I leave before the key started.

  12. #772
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    I am not that picky, but even as dps I have limits. For example I don't mind much a tank boosting his undergeared friend but if that friend still has greens in m+ when 343 blues cost peanuts I'm out (also if said friend is from a different server as the tank).

    Or lack of greetings. Over the years I pugged enough to... dislike... silent groups where nobody else can be arsed to type literally two letters in chat.

    Of course I leave before the key started.
    Hence my suggestion earlier to show score and/or ilvl of each member on mouseover in the LFG interface (and to either force filter by goal (Standard, Beat Timer, Completion) so people only see groups with the same goal as them or at least make goal much more visible.

  13. #773
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Until a better solution comes along the best practice so far is that for keys that matter to you, only play with players you trust.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Some WoW players will always try to min/max the game to the point where they will do the exact scenario listed because it helps themselves. If Bob only cares about his play time and his goals then when a mismatch occurs then he's going to try to save as much of his time as possible.

    Currently, this means Bob just leaves the group. But with any kind of punishment system for the 1st leaver, then Bob will make it his job to quickly cause someone else to be the "1st leaver" so he doesn't get punished and can get out of the key.

    Bottom line - No punishment system can exist for M+ because it ultimately holds players hostage in a less than ideal scenario. The Stick isn't going to work because the anonymity and wide scope of players means that if Bob leaves, the probability of you running into Bob again is very low.




    True but not everyone just wants to "finish" the dungeon if it's going to take a long time (more than 40% over the dungeon timer). If Bob is only looking for improving his score then it is a waste of his time as soon as the probability of finishing the key in time is gone. But remember that's Bob's goal, it doesn't necessarily match the rest of the group.

    Hence why I keep saying that it's vital to check and recheck with your party members that the goal of the run is agreed upon by everyone. Is this a timed/push run? Is it just for weekly vault (aka completion only)? Etc etc.

    The problem is that most players ASSUME that whey they join a group, the goal is finish in time (as the default option) and unless otherwise stated. If folks want to reduce the amount of leavers, then communicate more prior to starting a key. Make sure everyone is on the same goal/objective THEN start the run.

    - - - Updated - - -



    So then instead of leavers, you get a whole slew more of carry groups. Now you can have a Pro team do 98% of a +24 (finishing the last boss but needs 0.5% of count to finish), then drop X players to pull in X "carries".

    Somehow I think that's a worse thing than the current number of actual percentage of leavers (including toxic ones).

    - - - Updated - - -




    Hey don't look at me, I have a group of reliable folks to run M+ AND I also do a fair amount of PuG. I'm merely highlighting the issues with the punishment systems that penalize folks for leaving before "X" happens.

    And like others have commented, how can you distinguish the motives behind someone playing poorly? Are they intentionally dying on purpose or do they honestly don't realize the mechanic or the "proper" strategy for handling the mechanic?

    Yes we all like to believe that at +10 or higher keys that players should KNOW how to handle mechanics but that's not always the case.

    - - - Updated - - -



    No because it means that it would hold players hostage in groups they no longer want to be in. Additionally there has not been a proposed punishment system that have automated safeguards preventing player abuse of said system.



    Which again just means that players will attempt to "game" the system so that someone else leaves first so they can keep their pristine record. If you already have players leaving keys so no-Untimed runs (completed runs over time) show up in their r.io page, don't you think these same players would somehow cause others to "leave first"? So now instead of Bob just leaving (for whatever reason), now you have Bob trying to get someone else to leave via playing poorly and further wasting more of other players' time.
    in your example you act like „Bob making the other player the 1st leaver“ costs no time and is not time wasting for Bob. What about Bob sitting down afk and the grp just goes on for x amout of time? what about Bob sitting down afk and the ppls start the vote mechanic and 4 ppls click „fine“. then the dungeon ends naturally and no other person has the marker debuff. it’s completely the same as it is today then. but in that case it’s the fallback, not the default, when Bob decides to leave.

    it seems you not fully understood the system i mentioned, tbh. (no offense)

  14. #774
    Herald of the Titans Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    in your example you act like „Bob making the other player the 1st leaver“ costs no time and is not time wasting for Bob. What about Bob sitting down afk and the grp just goes on for x amout of time?
    This currently exists? A group can continue to 4 man a dungeon with Bob afk/not there. Granted most players realize the amount of effort it takes to make up for the 5th person so they also leave.

    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    what about Bob sitting down afk and the ppls start the vote mechanic and 4 ppls click „fine“. then the dungeon ends naturally and no other person has the marker debuff. it’s completely the same as it is today then. but in that case it’s the fallback, not the default, when Bob decides to leave.

    it seems you not fully understood the system i mentioned, tbh. (no offense)
    Uh but that assumes that the rest of the group wants to leave. The case I spelled out is if only Bob wants to leave and not the rest of the group. So seeing that Bob is "trapped" (or held hostage) by the rest of the group, Bob then decides to be counterproductive so that either the group has another vote (if there is a voting system) or someone else leaves first (if there's a punishment system for the first leaver).

    The how Bob is "counterproductive" is irrelevant. He is now a hinderance to the group because he can't leave the group nor does the rest of the group want to disband. Additionally, now there's additional time being "wasted" on top of the time already spent in dungeon. That is the biggest issue, you've turned a smaller problem into potentially a larger one.
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  15. #775
    I like that there is no penalty, sometimes i logout as soon as the key start and leave group at 1 second, without talking in party or anywhere,
    prevents getting reported

  16. #776
    Quote Originally Posted by Lordofbelbol View Post
    I like that there is no penalty, sometimes i logout as soon as the key start and leave group at 1 second, without talking in party or anywhere,
    prevents getting reported
    Mhmm, of course you do. If you're going to troll, at least make it somewhat convincing.

  17. #777
    Pandaren Monk Forgottenone's Avatar
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    What would stop people from simply afking? Although I haven't done it myself, I've seen on the WoW pvp subreddit videos of some people just afking due to them not winning in solo shuffle. Hell, the one match I had a DPS pop all cds before the match started. We barely won but it was a huge up hill fight due to that guy just being a troll. I feel like shitholes will just continue to be shitholes.

    Can't leave the M+? Just afk.
    Can't afk? Half ass it and "die" early/often

    They'll just find another way to not contribute and be an anchor.

  18. #778
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    You only really decide if you are making the group though. Otherwise you are just picking a group based on the leader. ANd especially if you are dps, you cannot really afford to be that picky if you have small windows of playtime and don't want to waste them all looking for group.
    You still pick who you play with. There isn't some magical contract you sign when you get accepted. You can look at the group comp and then leave and try again. You still have agency of who you play with. The fact that as DPS you can't be as picky is a supply/demand problem, not a Blizzard problem. In a nutshell, you always have agency over who you play with, and the fact that you've delegated that to someone else (by not being the party leader) does not change that.

    Mythic+ is designed to be played as an organized group, not a PuG.

  19. #779
    Quote Originally Posted by Lora View Post
    Should people who leave the key immediately after it starts be punished, sure. But there's so many factors that go into why someone would leave a key.
    I actually don't mind people leaving in the first 5 minutes - at least they are saving my time. But people who leave before the last boss should be locked out of their account for a couple of days.

  20. #780
    Quote Originally Posted by Forgottenone View Post
    What would stop people from simply afking? Although I haven't done it myself, I've seen on the WoW pvp subreddit videos of some people just afking due to them not winning in solo shuffle. Hell, the one match I had a DPS pop all cds before the match started. We barely won but it was a huge up hill fight due to that guy just being a troll. I feel like shitholes will just continue to be shitholes.

    Can't leave the M+? Just afk.
    Can't afk? Half ass it and "die" early/often

    They'll just find another way to not contribute and be an anchor.
    Bingo.

    Every single freakin "solution" suggested since the creation of Mythic+ has been plagued with unintended consequences. People will post their brilliant idea to Reddit without thinking through those consequences, and others will point out exactly those consequences. On Reddit there's a guy that posts in every "M+ leaver solution" thread a list of previous Reddit posts going back to Legion with the ideas suggested and the comments section explaining why it's not a viable idea.

    Once players start understanding that they have the power to control who they play with, the sooner we will stop seeing these types of threads pop up on the mmo-champion forums and Reddit. Until then, we're going to continue to have some person who thinks they're smarter than the rest of the room tell us their genius idea for M+ and then have it devolve into 700+ pages of posts explaining why it won't work.

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