Leaving M+ group should give you DESERTER

[Zodiark]

Yes, for the stated goal of the run. I you don't use "completion" option in dungeon finder when making your group don't expect anyone to stay if it looks like it's going to be 10mins over time.

I never said others should do that. Just that when things get rough people shouldn't bail. Nowadays people leave at the merest sight of adversity. I agree with the OP that something penalizing these people should be put in place.

I actually only run Mythic content these days sparingly if at all because I did that type of content to death years ago. I'm kinda over it tbh. But still I don't get involved in things half assed. If I sign up for something I do my darndest to stay until it's completed.

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Yup and that's the issue with turtle but that's another topic.



Just give up like me. People here don't want any form of punishment for leaving a group. They want to be able to leave any group they like, how many times they want in a day with no punishment, they don't care about 4 other's time. They want to leave for any reason even if it is a silly one. Heck I even suggest just showing them how many keys they left in a week and it gets reset weekly and that was still too much punishment for them. Just give up and move on. People simply want to be waste otherrs time by leaving. Nothing you can do unit blizzard actually start handling out punishment with like solo shuffle in PvP.

Yeah I totally get it but those immature people who want to leave with no punishment are just that, Immature. Everyone's time is valuable. But some choices should carry weight. Regardless of weather it's a game or not. If you are playing a solo game by yourself then do whatever you want. But this is a multi-player game and to do current content you need others to help you and work together.

[Relapses]

Yup and that's the issue with turtle but that's another topic.



Just give up like me. People here don't want any form of punishment for leaving a group. They want to be able to leave any group they like, how many times they want in a day with no punishment, they don't care about 4 other's time. They want to leave for any reason even if it is a silly one. Heck I even suggest just showing them how many keys they left in a week and it gets reset weekly and that was still too much punishment for them. Just give up and move on. People simply want to be waste otherrs time by leaving. Nothing you can do unit blizzard actually start handling out punishment with like solo shuffle in PvP.

Instead of passive-aggressively accusing people who contest your suggestions of "wasting time," maybe provide a valid counter-argument? Or, at the very least, provide a suggestion that is not able to be abused more than what we already have.

[sponge5307]

Pretty sure turtle doesn't work on dots so maybe thats your main issue?

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Pretty stupid pull on fortified with bolstering. Why would you even bring the big dude into a 3 pull? Makes no sense.

I do value my time. Very much. But when I signed up for a group I also took everyone else's time into consideration. It isn't just about you and your time. Think about if your the tank which I was how it slows everyone down even further compounding the issue by making them wait for a replacement and if everyone leaves then they have to wait for a new Queue again wasting even more time. nice try making it about YOUR time and not everyone else. Point is that people should work harder to stay and make the group the best they can on their part not bail because things get a little rough. That builds character outside of the game.

Instead of passive-aggressively accusing people who contest your suggestions of "wasting time," maybe provide a valid counter-argument? Or, at the very least, provide a suggestion that is not able to be abused more than what we already have.

Simple just show how many keys you left at what level per week. Gets reset every week. Is simple and effective. People on here kept saying people who push keys 20+ left keys all the time as soon as they won't time it and it is accept at high levels. So if it is accepted at high levels then just showing how many keys you won't affect your ability to join any 20+ keys right?

So why are people so against it? Simply put if you have have 40 times you left a 20+ keys that's pretty normal vs 30 times when you left a a sub +10 key. Why not show it so the GL and other players can see it so they can decide if they want to invite you or join your group or run with people who have left 30 times in a sub +10 key so they know the risk they are taking when they run with you.

We all know after +20 people are pushing for io so it doesn't matter how many keys you left. Yet people are still saying nononono we don't want that.

In fact let's throw some freebies first 5 keys you left won't show up in case anyone said what if I got unlucky and got a bad group. Well I am sure running into 5 bad group is likely not happening and the issue is most likely with you then. People want 0 punishment and will defend to the death lol. In fact let's have it so unless a boss is kill even if you leave the group it won't count as you leaving. I am sure right before the 1st boss is pull you would have known if the group will time the key or not? I tank and dps and after the first 2 to 3 pack I can pretty much how the run will be.

[Relapses]

Simple just show how many keys you left at what level per week. Gets reset every week. Is simple and effective. People on here kept saying people who push keys 20+ left keys all the time as soon as they won't time it and it is accept at high levels. So if it is accepted at high levels then just showing how many keys you won't affect your ability to join any 20+ keys right?

So why are people so against it? Simply put if you have have 40 times you left a 20+ keys that's pretty normal vs 30 times when you left a a sub +10 key. Why not show it so the GL and other players can see it so they can decide if they want to invite you or join your group or run with people who have left 30 times in a sub +10 key so they know the risk they are taking when they run with you.

We all know after +20 people are pushing for io so it doesn't matter how many keys you left. Yet people are still saying nononono we don't want that.

In fact let's throw some freebies first 5 keys you left won't show up in case anyone said what if I got unlucky and got a bad group. Well I am sure running into 5 bad group is likely not happening and the issue is most likely with you then. People want 0 punishment and will defend to the death lol. In fact let's have it so unless a boss is kill even if you leave the group it won't count as you leaving. I am sure right before the 1st boss is pull you would have known if the group will time the key or not? I tank and dps and after the first 2 to 3 pack I can pretty much how the run will be.

And, for the 35,000th time in this thread, how do you stop players from initiating behavior that causes other people to leave first, thereby keeping their leave percentage intact while another player takes the fall? You've completely failed to provide a legitimate reason for such a metric to exist in the first place.

[sponge5307]

And, for the 35,000th time in this thread, how do you stop players from initiating behavior that causes other people to leave first, thereby keeping their leave percentage intact while another player takes the fall? You've completely failed to provide a legitimate reason for such a metric to exist in the first place.

So what you are saying is you ran into more than 5 groups who like to troll you every week? They also like to troll you right after the first boss is down? LOL, if this happens to you, then is more of a "You" problem than it seems. After all I mention you get no penalty on the first 5 dungeons you leave and also if you leave after first boss is kill. So you get 5 freebie after the 1st is kill and leave and you get unlimited time to leave as long as no boss is down.

But what you are saying is HEY people love to troll me so they will on purpose only initiating behavior right after they kill the first boss and also make sure I am on the 6ath run where I kill a boss and left. Yea seems super unlikely.

[Relapses]

So what you are saying is you ran into more than 5 groups who like to troll you every week? They also like to troll you right after the first boss is down? LOL, if this happens to you, then is more of a "You" problem than it seems. After all I mention you get no penalty on the first 5 dungeons you leave and also if you leave before first boss is kill. So you get 5 freebie after the 1st is kill and leave and you get unlimited time to leave as long as no boss is down.

But what you are saying is HEY people love to troll me so they will on purpose only initiating behavior right after they kill the first boss and also make sure I am on the 6ath run where I kill a boss and left. Yea seems super unlikely.

???

Brother, what the actual fuck are you on about now?

I'm asking you to tell us why this system needs to exist. If (hypothetically) 90% of the WoW population never does more than 4 keys a week and it doesn't apply to the first 5 keys, why is it even there? And in the situations where it does apply, it's only providing a negative: There is now an incentive for a player who knows that leaving will effect their leave percentage to ruin a key and make somebody else (who may still be on their "free 5 leaves") leave first. It seems pointless at best, and wildly inconvenient and prone to abuse at worst. Nothing is better than the system you're describing.

[Alroxas]

The difference being that if there is a way for the system to tag the key, we could have separate rules and then we could apply a deserter debuff on Completion runs unless there is a majority vote to drop the run.

But that does nothing to the unfortunate minority that gets out voted. Let's use Bob (he's a dick anyway). Bob joins a group who holds this vote system but unfortunate for Bob, the group wants completion but Bob is only there for Beat Timer. Now Bob is "stuck" in a group that didn't bother to advertise that it's going after completion.

You have literally just held Bob hostage in an activity he didn't want. Now Bob could waste his time and try to complete the run with the rest of the group or he could play as poorly as possible so that the group votes to drop the run. Is that later something you really want? A multi-hour slog-fest where Bob "accidentally" causes wipes as he pulls extra packs, stands in fire, or any number of things that makes the dungeon run experience hell for the rest of the party?

How would you be able to tell if a player is purposely playing poorly or just a bad player. Maybe like that DLC comic, Bob decided to let his little brother (Donald from DLC) play.

Somehow the voting thing just doesn't seem to be a "better" solution.

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Simple just show how many keys you left at what level per week. Gets reset every week. Is simple and effective.

And easily abused. For instance, if your system reports the first person that leaves the party (after a keystone is started), then quite simply players who are currently leaving (for whatever reason) will now try to skirt your system by "engaging in activities to encourage someone else to leave the party first".

Here's your hypothetical scenario: Bob is in a run and he wants to leave (doesn't matter the reason) but he knows that if he leaves first, it's a black mark against his toon (let say he's about to hit that limit of 5 that you suggested). So instead of leaving (like he normally does), Bob now is set out to make someone else leave.

Maybe he starts pulling extra (by accident). Or standing in fire. Or using knockbacks after the tank has carefully grouped up a patrol for AoE. Maybe instead of accepting a battle rez, he does a manual release and starts the long run back that some dungeons are known for.

Is this any better than just having Bob leave in the first place?

[Koollan]

I will say - genuinely, I hate when people actively tank my key. Especially when I'm trying my hardest to clear +16 or higher for the Concentrated Primal, and then the tank dies to an entirely avoidable mechanic or my DPS refuse to kick an unhealable spell, which results in one, sometimes two, people leaving, which always and invariably causes my key to deplete to 15. No longer eligible for the Concentrated Primal.

If we don't want to punish this degenerate behavior, then stop punishing the people suffering from this degenerate behavior. Why do I need to have 30, 45 minutes of my time wasted upgrading my key back up to 16, 17 from 15 when I'm not even the issue? I'm 405 ilvl yet people don't take me into their keys because they're expecting 410 ilvl at this point.

Either stop key depletion entirely from leavers or severely punish leavers. There is no in between in my eyes. If someone points me at one, I can be convinced, but I'm seriously done with this. Of the 9+ attempted 16+ keys I've tried this week, 8 of them have been abandoned after one, two wipes, and my key was depleted. Disgusting degenerate behavior.

And if you're one of those people that does that, I hope that you get what's coming to you. Time is hard to come by these days, and you waste others' time by not even feigning vague interest in trying and leaving when a death bores you. Stop playing M+ if you're going to do that. We try to complete content here for rewards. Not punishing others. Assholes.

[Jester Joe]

And easily abused. For instance, if your system reports the first person that leaves the party (after a keystone is started), then quite simply players who are currently leaving (for whatever reason) will now try to skirt your system by "engaging in activities to encourage someone else to leave the party first".

Here's your hypothetical scenario: Bob is in a run and he wants to leave (doesn't matter the reason) but he knows that if he leaves first, it's a black mark against his toon (let say he's about to hit that limit of 5 that you suggested). So instead of leaving (like he normally does), Bob now is set out to make someone else leave.

Maybe he starts pulling extra (by accident). Or standing in fire. Or using knockbacks after the tank has carefully grouped up a patrol for AoE. Maybe instead of accepting a battle rez, he does a manual release and starts the long run back that some dungeons are known for.

Is this any better than just having Bob leave in the first place?

And then he gets reported and eventually action is taken against his account.

Like, it's as simple as that, people who abuse a system get eventually in trouble, is it worth having your account suspended to dodge a few penalties for quitting M+?

It's getting exhausting seeing the same claim of "it's holding them hostage" at this point. People who are joining random groups are able to decide what groups they list for, and can easily quickly check to see if the group is qualified enough before starting the key.

Join a group and realize it's full of survival hunters for some reason? Leave before starting. Don't start the key and wait 10 minutes in to quit.

There's already deterrence systems in other content but I don't see people ruining LFR/LFG groups just to get others to leave first so they can quit without a debuff. Simple fall backs like "Key is already overtime" can be added to allow people to leave without any sort of debuff.


The major issue here is that the person receiving the punishment for a player rage quitting isn't the player who rage quit, it's the person who used their key for the run. Currently the punishment is more often aimed at the wrong player.

[Relapses]

The major issue here is that the person receiving the punishment for a player rage quitting isn't the player who rage quit, it's the person who used their key for the run. Currently the punishment is more often aimed at the wrong player.

It's still aimed incorrectly under any of the punishment systems suggested. Because players will know there's punishment for leaving keys, they'll simply act in ways that make other people more likely to quit. They could, for example, stop interrupting altogether. This will lead to wipes but there's a degree of plausible deniability even though the act itself is malicious. ("Oops, my bad I just rebinded my interrupt lol") This player decided 2 minutes into the key he didn't want to be there but doesn't want the penalty so now he's actively doing everything in his power to make somebody else leave first. Is that... really the way we want to go? I can't speak for everybody I'd rather that guy just leave and try it on the next key down.

[Alroxas]

And then he gets reported and eventually action is taken against his account.

But what proof is there? Again how does any automated system actually tell if a player is purposely playing poorly?

Like, it's as simple as that, people who abuse a system get eventually in trouble, is it worth having your account suspended to dodge a few penalties for quitting M+?

Additionally the issue is players finding ways to skirt systems in place to get by. Sure eventually, they may get caught but until then the degenerate gameplay that emerges is worse than the current "negative" of a bricked key.

It's getting exhausting seeing the same claim of "it's holding them hostage" at this point. People who are joining random groups are able to decide what groups they list for, and can easily quickly check to see if the group is qualified enough before starting the key.

And that's the crux of the issue - The group leader has the power to do all of this PRIOR to starting the run. But they don't properly vet or perform due diligence. They just see: hey there's a 2.5k score player that's playing a meta class, I'm going to invite them even though my goals don't necessarily align with theirs. Then when that player leaves, the group leader gets all upset about it.

There's already deterrence systems in other content but I don't see people ruining LFR/LFG groups just to get others to leave first so they can quit without a debuff. Simple fall backs like "Key is already overtime" can be added to allow people to leave without any sort of debuff.

LFR/LFD systems assemble the groups. Whereas Group Finder the group leader does the picking. So punishment systems for LFD/LFR even solo shuffle makes sense because it's an automation thing.

How come there's not a punishment for the group leader who made the wrong pick when assembling the group? How come we aren't holding that person's accountable for not vetting the group members properly?

The major issue here is that the person receiving the punishment for a player rage quitting isn't the player who rage quit, it's the person who used their key for the run. Currently the punishment is more often aimed at the wrong player.

Maybe, but keys are also fairly plentiful until you get to very specific scenarios. And a -1 to a key isn't the worst thing in the world. May I remind you that the earliest iteration of M+ keystones had keys that would actual deplete. And you had to "recharge" them by running a depleted key in time (with no loot) to turn it back to a charged key.

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("Oops, my bad I just rebinded my interrupt lol")

Ha! It doesn't even have to be that. With the new talent trees, they could simply state that their "build" doesn't put any points into interrupt, knockback, or CCs. And since you can't change talents during a M+ (unless you step out of the instance)... It gives even more deniability.

[Relapses]

Ha! It doesn't even have to be that. With the new talent trees, they could simply state that their "build" doesn't put any points into interrupt, knockback, or CCs. And since you can't change talents during a M+ (unless you step out of the instance)... It gives even more deniability.

I feel like with the current system sometimes I get players who I think are actively working against the successful completion of the key. It's ultimately just memes because the more likely explanation is that the player just sucks. With any of these punishment systems suggested, there's a distinct possibility players are making conscious decisions to ruin keys in order to get let go earlier. That is the wrong way to fix an issue, imo.

[Jester Joe]

But what proof is there? Again how does any automated system actually tell if a player is purposely playing poorly?

All reports aren't automated.

This has been covered already several times.

I'm not interested in the "but what about the other sides flaws!!" rebuttal either. Everyone has ways to judge people's participation in m+.

If you're looking for people who are experienced, guess what, there's a neat tool to tell you how many keys they've ran, what level, and what dungeons.

On the other hand, there's no way to tell someones attitude. You can't hold both sides equally accountable, when you can easily tell what kind of level someone plays at without knowing anything about them as a person.

And it's absolutely silly to claim losing a key level is a small punishment while ALSO trying to say "but punishing people for leaving is bad!"

They're both wasting other people's times. A debuff that stops people from joining keys for a short time is less than forcing someone to redo a dungeon to push the difficulty up again.

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It's still aimed incorrectly under any of the punishment systems suggested. Because players will know there's punishment for leaving keys, they'll simply act in ways that make other people more likely to quit. They could, for example, stop interrupting altogether. This will lead to wipes but there's a degree of plausible deniability even though the act itself is malicious. ("Oops, my bad I just rebinded my interrupt lol") This player decided 2 minutes into the key he didn't want to be there but doesn't want the penalty so now he's actively doing everything in his power to make somebody else leave first. Is that... really the way we want to go? I can't speak for everybody I'd rather that guy just leave and try it on the next key down.

As I've said before though, the right level of punishment is all that's needed.

I have doubts that there would be some widespread "just vaguely troll instead!", if the punishment is just a simple like, 15-30 minutes debuff that you can't do keys for.

Because nothing ensures that people are going to leave before you, would you rather just keep pounding your head into a wall praying someone leaves or just leave and do something else yourself?

[Relapses]

As I've said before though, the right level of punishment is all that's needed.

I have doubts that there would be some widespread "just vaguely troll instead!", if the punishment is just a simple like, 15-30 minutes debuff that you can't do keys for.

Because nothing ensures that people are going to leave before you, would you rather just keep pounding your head into a wall praying someone leaves or just leave and do something else yourself?

...which once again brings the discussion back to, "if the punishment isn't enough, why bother putting it in the first place?"

Look -- I'm not gonna circle the drain with you on this topic. It's clear you and I are approaching this from opposite ends of the same spectrum. I get where you're coming from on a conceptual level. I just know that this game is full of sociopaths and I'd rather not have a layered system that encourages passive aggressive play from random people in my 5 mans. You speak as if this would fix a problem but I can only see it making the problem worse. Yeah, it sucks when some douchenozzle bricks your key. I think almost everybody contributing to this topic feels the same way here. But it's my firm belief the only way a system which relies on total anonymity can succeed is if there are as few limiting factors for leaving as possible. Limiting factors for leaving only make sense for cooperative multiplayer when there's a collective interest in either succeeding or failing. For M+, that would mean either gaining score for completing a key or losing score for depleting a key; and since the latter factor simply doesn't happen under the current system, I don't see the harm in leaving it the way it is.

[Jester Joe]

...which once again brings the discussion back to, "if the punishment isn't enough, why bother putting it in the first place?"

Look -- I'm not gonna circle the drain with you on this topic. It's clear you and I are approaching this from opposite ends of the same spectrum. I get where you're coming from on a conceptual level. I just know that this game is full of sociopaths and I'd rather not have a layered system that encourages passive aggressive play from random people in my 5 mans. You speak as if this would fix a problem but I can only see it making the problem worse. Yeah, it sucks when some douchenozzle bricks your key. I think almost everybody contributing to this topic feels the same way here. But it's my firm belief the only way a system which relies on total anonymity can succeed is if there are as few limiting factors for leaving as possible. Limiting factors for leaving only make sense for cooperative multiplayer when there's a collective interest in either succeeding or failing. For M+, that would mean either gaining score for completing a key or losing score for depleting a key; and since the latter factor simply doesn't happen under the current system, I don't see the harm in leaving it the way it is.

Likewise, I don't understand this idea of "if it isn't enough..."

It's not meant to be a crippling punishment. I've been clear about that from the start, it's meant to be a "You can either put in the effort and spend 20ish-30ish minutes finishing the key, or you can bite the bullet and just not do a key for that long by leaving".

If people would rather have keys that they can leave, then they should play with friends who can decide as a group "Yeah this is bricked, let's do something else", not joining random keys and just leaving. It's basically the WoW version of the shopping cart test, and if they can't pass such a simple situation then perhaps they shouldn't be pugging content.

Just because there isn't a score decrease for depleting keys doesn't change the flaw that if someone's key is depleted, they're the ones now stuck in the situation of having to push it back up, which takes another 20-30 minutes of running the dungeon again which could just lead to the same issue. The current system punishes those who are taking initiative to offer their key, not the ones who act like dicks and just leave. That's what I would call a flawed system that needs analysis, not "Eh, it's fine, just leave it". Whether or not you agree with the proposed ideas from players doesn't change that.

[Tech614]

Likewise, I don't understand this idea of "if it isn't enough..."

It's not meant to be a crippling punishment. I've been clear about that from the start, it's meant to be a "You can either put in the effort and spend 20ish-30ish minutes finishing the key, or you can bite the bullet and just not do a key for that long by leaving".

If people would rather have keys that they can leave, then they should play with friends who can decide as a group "Yeah this is bricked, let's do something else", not joining random keys and just leaving. It's basically the WoW version of the shopping cart test, and if they can't pass such a simple situation then perhaps they shouldn't be pugging content.

Just because there isn't a score decrease for depleting keys doesn't change the flaw that if someone's key is depleted, they're the ones now stuck in the situation of having to push it back up, which takes another 20-30 minutes of running the dungeon again which could just lead to the same issue. The current system punishes those who are taking initiative to offer their key, not the ones who act like dicks and just leave. That's what I would call a flawed system that needs analysis, not "Eh, it's fine, just leave it". Whether or not you agree with the proposed ideas from players doesn't change that.

Honestly they could just make keys under a certain level not go down a level at all unless you complete it and it wouldn't change a single thing about the game's competitive balance. I'm surprised they haven't. At the high end people could abuse it but I don't know why it's still a thing for lower keys.

[Jester Joe]

Honestly they could just make keys under a certain level not go down a level at all unless you complete it and it wouldn't change a single thing about the game's competitive balance. I'm surprised they haven't. At the high end people could abuse it but I don't know why it's still a thing for lower keys.

I mean, I'd be perfectly happy with that solution too. If people want to keep resetting their key just to keep retrying a higher key, by all means, it's still a timesink they're investing into the key to get that perfect run, instead of just having to do random dungeons hoping to reroll that one key that they need again at a high level.

[Nymrohd]

I mean, I'd be perfectly happy with that solution too. If people want to keep resetting their key just to keep retrying a higher key, by all means, it's still a timesink they're investing into the key to get that perfect run, instead of just having to do random dungeons hoping to reroll that one key that they need again at a high level.

One simple solution to that issue would be for the key to not deplete to require a certain run time. So if you just run in, activate it then brick it, it will deplete. But if you run it and you deplete it after e.g. 10 mins, it is not depleted.

[Anzen]

And then he gets reported and eventually action is taken against his account.

Like, it's as simple as that, people who abuse a system get eventually in trouble, is it worth having your account suspended to dodge a few penalties for quitting M+

At this point, I don't even think you believe this is true. Are you telling me that you genuinely believe that armies of GM's are going to sit there painstakingly analysing a players gameplay and comparing it against past performance or logs or something to form an assessment of whether the player got hit by an AoE or missed an interrupt deliberately? Come on.

This very point has already been debated in this thread by you, if you remember people started posing the view of "What if you can't tell if a teammate is throwing or is just bad?" and your response was along the lines of "report everyone, the GM's will work it out".

I mean firstly, I think it quite amusing that players could be reported and potentially banned for playing poorly. Secondly, I'm amazed by this incredible horde of GM's you seem to think Blizzard possesses that presumably are ready and waiting to do this. My experience of GM's has generally been a week for a ticket reply in which the response is usually a stock reply about something completely unrelated to the issue I reported or 'soz, can't do anything'.

It's getting exhausting seeing the same claim of "it's holding them hostage" at this point. People who are joining random groups are able to decide what groups they list for, and can easily quickly check to see if the group is qualified enough before starting the key.

Join a group and realize it's full of survival hunters for some reason? Leave before starting. Don't start the key and wait 10 minutes in to quit.

And it's exhausting that you keep trying to pretend that ilvl/IO is a guarantee of a players skill. I can not inspect a DPS and know whether they will avoid the beam on Mari or interrupt mobs. I can not inspect a tank and know whether he will chain pull during bolstering. Ilvl/IO is a guide, sure, but certainly not a guarantee and I see plenty of 2.7k players getting hit by the most obvious shit on a daily basis. It's surely tiresome for you to try and keep up this facade, which you yourself know isn't true.

There's already deterrence systems in other content but I don't see people ruining LFR/LFG groups just to get others to leave first so they can quit without a debuff. Simple fall backs like "Key is already overtime" can be added to allow people to leave without any sort of debuff.

And the deception continues. It's interesting that you choose to deliberately compare matchmade content to premade content.

Why don't you compare premade dungeons (mythic+) to premade raids? Last I checked there is no punishment for leaving a premade raid.

There is however punishments for leaving matchmade dungeons (LFD) and matchmade raids (LFR)

The major issue here is that the person receiving the punishment for a player rage quitting isn't the player who rage quit, it's the person who used their key for the run. Currently the punishment is more often aimed at the wrong player.

This is again a difference in perspective.

Is the person that failed the run the person who doesn't know they have to run out the group with chillstorm in RLP? Or the person that accidently ninja pulled the dragon and wiped the group, guaranteeing the run would not be timed? Or is it the person that left first because of it. There's no right answer here, some could reasonably argue that the run being untimed isn't a valid reason to abandon it. I just think the blanket generalisation of leaver=baddie is lazy.

I dislike the key system so I can loosely agree with the stance that the key owner takes an additional hit by his key being delevelled, and I think our focus should be entirely on this - but there's been very few suggestions to change the key system, just wonky systems with debuffs and votes and scores based on subjective nonsense.

[Archy]

If semantics bother you that much - replace the word 'reason' with 'justification' in my posts.

The scenario of someone leaving with no justification (as in, nothing objectively went wrong within the run) is rare. I think most people in this thread accept this.

I don't really get how this is a point. You could say that about everything. "Nobody murders anybody without justification." That's true, doesn't say anything about the deed though.

It's quite amusing that you have had to resort to blanket statements like "you're one of those players a lot of people don't want to play with" to support your shakey assertions, given that I have maintained throughought the thread that leavers are relatively uncommon in my experience and I have great success in mythic+.

It's fair enough, that you took it the wrong way. I worded it rather aggressively. What I mean to be saying is, that a lot of people don't want to be playing with someone who only thinks about their own goals. You kinda make my point with your SBG story. You're in there for concentrated primal focus. This will drop even if depleted (I'm pretty sure). So you're getting something out of it and you know that SBG is a joke and it will be probably timed in a timely fashion. This is the example of you being "not the villain". It even ended with you completing the run. So to you it would have been acceptable to leave a key that can stille easily be timed. I'm not sure what the "villain" in your mind would be. Someone coming to your house after the run and stabbing you?

To touch on your last point, the reason people leave without saying anything, is because everyone knows what happens if you point out someones shortcomings, they ain't whispering you "thanks for the advice bro, much appreciated".

Just yesterday I did a key that was obviously depleted (DH and my fault). Instead of just leaving the DH and mage asked if everybody wants to finish the run (but they'd got nothing from it). We finished it. I'd completely understood a leave there, even if "only" 2 people wanted to leave. You don't have to point fingers. I'm not sure why you think that was the thing I wanted people to say.

Oh so anything that someone decides to create a thread here on MMOC is validated as a valid issue?

Not that it was created, but that, as you said, new people kept coming in here and are opposing your views. Shows some kind of interest.

Lmao *facepalm* so yet again, your concept, as with all others in this thread, has obvious and significant flaws, right out the gate.

So the people with the highest scores would be those that generally avoid pugging with strangers. 10/10

You say that, because trying so hard to point out "obvious flaws", without even thinking about them. Your pointed out "flaws" are more inane than my half baked ideas. So just think this through. Your problem is that a system misjudged people who won't participate in the kind of activity that the system was built for (pugging). So what? That's not even a problem. It's like saying a mythic raider who doesn't do M+ won't have a M+ score that is indicative of his skill.
So is it about your boogie man who only puggs to troll people with his premade? This kind of person would get no upvotes (because you can't upvote your friends/guildies) but all the downvotes form people being trolled. So he would have a terrible rating. Compare that how it is now. There is nothing in place to stop them. They can do what they want.

While I understand the reasons it fits your narrative better if the person leaving is also the baddie, I find it somewhat amusing that even if it that was typically the case, punishing leavers would be counterproductive to you.

The baddies that don't under mechanics, or how to interrupt, or take 80% of all avoidable damage - you're stuck with them now.

I can understand the motivation of others in this thread running lower level mythics wanting to complete the run at all costs because they want the gear or valor. But I can't see that this is the case for you. Would you truly be happy being forced to stay, at fear of punishment, in all of these runs if it was clear you couldn't time them?

Careful what you wish for or you might just get it.

I would be stuck with them if everyone in the group thinks the same. Almost never saw that happen. But you're right. For me this would be an overall bad thing. I don't need end of the run gear anymore and I'm only here for the IO. Even when I'm twinking I'd rather have a smooth run than a shitshow and can't really be bothered to stick it out with morons. I really enjoy M+ though and I want as many people engaged in that type of content as possible. Top 1% is just about having everything on 20. Not a good trend, imho. Rewarding friendly people would be a step in the right direction, I believe.

It does matter. You don't owe anyone anything.

I said those are sus because you only provided info on what you perceived to be the reason for their leaving.
Which is only true if you have 1 major fuck up (like the first pull thing you said).
If someone leaves after 10-15 minutes into the run then it was most likely going poorly to begin with.

Your Nokhud example is clearly another one where it is totally justified to leave the key. It most likely won't be timed and wasting 30 mins on your life on something that starts like this is useless.

Quite a toxic sentiment.
The RLP was the example I gave for poor performance (to which you agreed). Nokhud was about keeping your word. If you think it's okay to agree to something and then just go back on your word 10min later, we don't have a game discussion but one about morals and ethics. And the 3rd one was about not being on the same page about the key being depleted or not.

Of coure poor performance was involved in every one. Why should people quit if everything is going exactly how they expected it? Again, it's something like a kid behaving well if he gets everything he wants. The instant something goes not according to his plan, s/he throws a tantrum. Would you say that this kid is well behaved?