Leaving M+ group should give you DESERTER

[wixxi]

it was perfectly valid reason to leave.

youre trolling right? you must be

[Tyrilion]

You're trolling, right? you must be

I think what he's trying to explain is at keys above level 20, it's not about completion anymore, it's purely for score, gear from the cache is irrelevant, we do not need to finish it, and that time is better utilized finding another group.

[Kehego]

I rarely leave dungeons myself but its hilarious that people want your soul to be tethered to a group that isn't achieving what you want to achieve

like bffr

[wixxi]

hey yo all im back. started a 19AA and healer left after dying on tree from sapling aoe spawn. great job guys. i mean we still killed the boss cause he died at 5% of bosses hp, but I guess he couldnt see it, cause the leaving you know

[Azharok]

hey yo all im back. started a 19AA and healer left after dying on tree from sapling aoe spawn. great job guys. i mean we still killed the boss cause he died at 5% of bosses hp, but I guess he couldnt see it, cause the leaving you know

Nice context...

[sponge5307]

First problem, how does the game realize when a person leaves, it's because of themselves and not because of the group? Say Bob is being a troll (damnit, Bob!), but other people in the group leave first. Doesn't that mean that the first leaver is being punished for the actions of someone else?

So now you have all these people staying in a party because they don't want to be the "first" leaver but continue to play poorly so that some other poor schmuck leaves first.

Second problem, say you join Bob at a party, and then Bob has to leave (for whatever reason). Does Bob get flagged? Since you partied up with him, is his behavior going to affect your account? Let's say that Bob is already flagged but joins your party, does his flagged affect your ability to find other non-flagged people in group finder?

LOL, blizzard just made it even worse with 10.1
Five fragments if you don’t time a key, 12 if you do (the new item you need to upgrade your gear)
So now people will leave at the slightest mistake.
A better way, at least try to get people to stay is that if a key is a brink meaning it is completed over 30min when the key run out of time or the keyholder resets the key without completing it, then everyone in the group will have their key downgrade by one mythic + level. This way, everyone gets punished, not just the key holder, so it encourage people to try at least to complete the key, even if the key won't be timed at least their key doesn't go down by one mythic +. However, if the group is just that bad and there is no way to complete the key even if it is 30min over, then mind as well take a hit, and everyone gets punished.

[Alroxas]

A better way, at least try to get people to stay is that if a key is a brink meaning it is completed over 30min when the key run out of time or the keyholder resets the key without completing it, then everyone in the group will have their key downgrade by one mythic + level. This way, everyone gets punished, not just the key holder, so it encourage people to try at least to complete the key, even if the key won't be timed at least their key doesn't go down by one mythic +. However, if the group is just that bad and there is no way to complete the key even if it is 30min over, then mind as well take a hit, and everyone gets punished.

Holy batman levels of toxic. Don't you see how bad that idea is? "Everyone gets punished" means that group leaders will be EVEN MORE PICKY about who they bring.

No the 10.1 system is fine. 5 vs 12 fragments is a carrot (instead of the stick) to do well in a dungeon and at the very least even a non-timed completion is semi-rewarding to do.

[Relapses]

Holy batman levels of toxic. Don't you see how bad that idea is? "Everyone gets punished" means that group leaders will be EVEN MORE PICKY about who they bring.

No the 10.1 system is fine. 5 vs 12 fragments is a carrot (instead of the stick) to do well in a dungeon and at the very least even a non-timed completion is semi-rewarding to do.

If @sponge5307 had his way, he'd have the twins from Minority Report using precognition to have a team of heavily armed government officials raid your house before you ever even think about leaving a key.

[Temp name]

LOL, blizzard just made it even worse with 10.1
Five fragments if you don’t time a key, 12 if you do (the new item you need to upgrade your gear)
So now people will leave at the slightest mistake.
A better way, at least try to get people to stay is that if a key is a brink meaning it is completed over 30min when the key run out of time or the keyholder resets the key without completing it, then everyone in the group will have their key downgrade by one mythic + level. This way, everyone gets punished, not just the key holder, so it encourage people to try at least to complete the key, even if the key won't be timed at least their key doesn't go down by one mythic +. However, if the group is just that bad and there is no way to complete the key even if it is 30min over, then mind as well take a hit, and everyone gets punished.

Ah yes, so if I'm a dick, I get to ruin 4 other people's keys instead of just 1! That's way more efficient. Thank you.

[sponge5307]

Ah yes, so if I'm a dick, I get to ruin 4 other people's keys instead of just 1! That's way more efficient. Thank you.

And you wonder why people won't rather pug than use their own key. Coz hey if a jerk or the key is brick I don't have to worry about it coz that's no problem. That's why people bail and leave key even for the more tiny issue. Now if everyone keys will be downgrade as well it will force people to actual try to finish a run instead of leaving first sight of trouble coz they also get punish. Even if the key won't be time as least if the dungeon is completed in a reasonable no one will be have keys downgraded.

But hey S2 is coming and with the new affix I can already seen a lot of brick keys and people leaving dungeons. Tested it myself on the PTR. Explosive hp was crazy and it is nerf a bit but still a long way to go. Incorporeal IS JUST bad. There are already a lot of mobs that need CC and having Incorporeal that you need to CC constantly is a pain. Also it doesn't allow healer to get out of combat and grab a drink to regen mana. Afflicted again much like Incorporeal just annoying and is going to be a healer affix in the end. Entangling is just annoying 99% of the time and some class will have a much easier time than others. that 1% when you are Entanged and can not get out of an AoE fast enough and died is going to cause a lot of rage.

Pretty much having a class like pally, monk, rouge, DH even druid seems very very useful on 2 or even 3 of new affixes due to the number of CC and stuns they have. Some class like hunter and dps warrior is going to have a very hard time getting into pugs due to their limited utilites and CC/stun options they have. Is not end of the world if you have a guild or friends you play with and a comp that kinda of balances it out. But I expect in pugs where CC/stun/kicks aren't cordinated people is going to want to invite/spec with more CC/STUN With short CD on them just in case. Test a few run on the PTR with some +10 to +16 keys and the best way we find to deal with Explosive is just to do nothing and when they are about to exploded use our Def CD and let the healer heal us after or just HP pots. The amount of adds that pop up from Incorporeal and Afflicted are pretty bad. Not sure how is now after blizzard nerf the spwan rate.

- - - Updated - - -

Holy batman levels of toxic. Don't you see how bad that idea is? "Everyone gets punished" means that group leaders will be EVEN MORE PICKY about who they bring.

No the 10.1 system is fine. 5 vs 12 fragments is a carrot (instead of the stick) to do well in a dungeon and at the very least even a non-timed completion is semi-rewarding to do.

If @sponge5307 had his way, he'd have the twins from Minority Report using precognition to have a team of heavily armed government officials raid your house before you ever even think about leaving a key.

Ah yes, so if I'm a dick, I get to ruin 4 other people's keys instead of just 1! That's way more efficient. Thank you.

LOL, so all you want is to let people who leave unpunished even nothing is wrong with the group everything is going fine and the person leaving just doesn't like the group or the run for whatever reason. Even if it is just coz they don't like the tank transmog or the way the tank pull or even just say someone says hi in chat. Basically, you only want to punish the GL who provided the keys and those whose time you wasted coz you decided to leave mid-way?

Heck, even content like PVP and LFR and time walking and normal and heroic dungeon give you a bit of punishment why shouldn't M+ do the same? Unless you guys are the ones who leave the group for the tiniest issue therefore you are against any form of punishment you will receive.

[Ilookfly]

And you wonder why people won't rather pug than use their own key. Coz hey if a jerk or the key is brick I don't have to worry about it coz that's no problem. That's why people bail and leave key even for the more tiny issue. Now if everyone keys will be downgrade as well it will force people to actual try to finish a run instead of leaving first sight of trouble coz they also get punish. Even if the key won't be time as least if the dungeon is completed in a reasonable no one will be have keys downgraded.

But hey S2 is coming and with the new affix I can already seen a lot of brick keys and people leaving dungeons. Tested it myself on the PTR. Explosive hp was crazy and it is nerf a bit but still a long way to go. Incorporeal IS JUST bad. There are already a lot of mobs that need CC and having Incorporeal that you need to CC constantly is a pain. Also it doesn't allow healer to get out of combat and grab a drink to regen mana. Afflicted again much like Incorporeal just annoying and is going to be a healer affix in the end. Entangling is just annoying 99% of the time and some class will have a much easier time than others. that 1% when you are Entanged and can not get out of an AoE fast enough and died is going to cause a lot of rage.

Pretty much having a class like pally, monk, rouge, DH even druid seems very very useful on 2 or even 3 of new affixes due to the number of CC and stuns they have. Some class like hunter and dps warrior is going to have a very hard time getting into pugs due to their limited utilites and CC/stun options they have. Is not end of the world if you have a guild or friends you play with and a comp that kinda of balances it out. But I expect in pugs where CC/stun/kicks aren't cordinated people is going to want to invite/spec with more CC/STUN With short CD on them just in case. Test a few run on the PTR with some +10 to +16 keys and the best way we find to deal with Explosive is just to do nothing and when they are about to exploded use our Def CD and let the healer heal us after or just HP pots. The amount of adds that pop up from Incorporeal and Afflicted are pretty bad. Not sure how is now after blizzard nerf the spwan rate.

- - - Updated - - -







LOL, so all you want is to let people who leave unpunished even nothing is wrong with the group everything is going fine and the person leaving just doesn't like the group or the run for whatever reason. Even if it is just coz they don't like the tank transmog or the way the tank pull or even just say someone says hi in chat. Basically, you only want to punish the GL who provided the keys and those whose time you wasted coz you decided to leave mid-way?

Heck, even content like PVP and LFR and time walking and normal and heroic dungeon give you a bit of punishment why shouldn't M+ do the same? Unless you guys are the ones who leave the group for the tiniest issue therefore you are against any form of punishment you will receive.

Its premade content. Deserter would be silly

[Alroxas]

Heck, even content like PVP and LFR and time walking and normal and heroic dungeon give you a bit of punishment why shouldn't M+ do the same? Unless you guys are the ones who leave the group for the tiniest issue therefore you are against any form of punishment you will receive.

Let me see, do you get to choose your teammates in LFR? How about Dungeon finder for normal/heroic/timewalking dungeons? No? The system chooses for you? Then that's why those systems have a "deserter debuff" if you bail early.

And honestly, all it take for that system not to give you a "debuff" is to wipe ONCE. Honestly that system if translated to M+ is also incredibly stupid. Oops we wiped once, guess everyone can leave without penalty AND key holder still gets their key downgraded.


You want better M+ groups? Vet your teammates. Check and confirm their goals match yours. Are they going for completion or timing? Are they score obsessed or are they ok with slightly going over time? Maybe inspect each party member and make sure they have sufficient gear that is well suited for their spec? Go as far as check their talent choices?


Oh that takes up too much time? And you'd rather just go now with whatever ad hoc group? Sure then accept the odds that the group may fall apart and players will bail. Their time is as important to them as your time is as important to you.

- - - Updated - - -

But hey S2 is coming and with the new affix I can already seen a lot of brick keys and people leaving dungeons. Tested it myself on the PTR.

PTR by it's nature is a test realm. In fact, Blizzard has already stated that they have reduced explosive orb HP and are thinking about iterating on it so that it provides a shield to trash if it isn't killed before it gets the cast off.

Incorporeal/Afflicted/Entangling are also all getting some changes as well. Which again underscores the nature of PTR.

Explosive hp was crazy and it is nerf a bit but still a long way to go. Incorporeal IS JUST bad. There are already a lot of mobs that need CC and having Incorporeal that you need to CC constantly is a pain. Also it doesn't allow healer to get out of combat and grab a drink to regen mana. Afflicted again much like Incorporeal just annoying and is going to be a healer affix in the end. Entangling is just annoying 99% of the time and some class will have a much easier time than others. that 1% when you are Entanged and can not get out of an AoE fast enough and died is going to cause a lot of rage.

Blizzard is already fixing/iterating on these. See this wowhead article.

[sponge5307]

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ing/1603036/37
The latest issue someone has with m+ is apparently if you have leave and all 4 players report you it might be counted as griefing.

A better way to fix the system is to make people pick an option before listing the group and they have to pick an option otherwise they can not post their groups.
-Competition
-Time
-1 Chest
-2 Chest
-3 Chest
-Carry
So when people use the LFG feature they also have to pick which category they are looking for. It should reduce the number of people complaining coz if I sign up for a Competition I know I am running with people who don't care about timing the keys and all they care is completing the run for the vault vs people who want to 3 chest the keys and I know if the time is no longer able to 3 cheat it people will leave and is kinda agree upon even before people enter the dungeon.

[dacoolist]

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ing/1603036/37
The latest issue someone has with m+ is apparently if you have leave and all 4 players report you it might be counted as griefing.

A better way to fix the system is to make people pick an option before listing the group and they have to pick an option otherwise they can not post their groups.
-Competition
-Time
-1 Chest
-2 Chest
-3 Chest
-Carry
So when people use the LFG feature they also have to pick which category they are looking for. It should reduce the number of people complaining coz if I sign up for a Competition I know I am running with people who don't care about timing the keys and all they care is completing the run for the vault vs people who want to 3 chest the keys and I know if the time is no longer able to 3 cheat it people will leave and is kinda agree upon even before people enter the dungeon.

necro! lol

ON topic though: if you punish people for leaving its going to work the same way LFR works - people can just vote kick you and you get deserter even though you did everything right. So yeah: the issue is sometimes groups just fall apart: its all good, queue up for another - ignore/block list people

[sponge5307]

Let me see, do you get to choose your teammates in LFR? How about Dungeon finder for normal/heroic/timewalking dungeons? No? The system chooses for you? Then that's why those systems have a "deserter debuff" if you bail early.

And honestly, all it take for that system not to give you a "debuff" is to wipe ONCE. Honestly that system if translated to M+ is also incredibly stupid. Oops we wiped once, guess everyone can leave without penalty AND key holder still gets their key downgraded.


You want better M+ groups? Vet your teammates. Check and confirm their goals match yours. Are they going for completion or timing? Are they score obsessed or are they ok with slightly going over time? Maybe inspect each party member and make sure they have sufficient gear that is well suited for their spec? Go as far as check their talent choices?


Oh that takes up too much time? And you'd rather just go now with whatever ad hoc group? Sure then accept the odds that the group may fall apart and players will bail. Their time is as important to them as your time is as important to you.

- - - Updated - - -



PTR by it's nature is a test realm. In fact, Blizzard has already stated that they have reduced explosive orb HP and are thinking about iterating on it so that it provides a shield to trash if it isn't killed before it gets the cast off.

Incorporeal/Afflicted/Entangling are also all getting some changes as well. Which again underscores the nature of PTR.



Blizzard is already fixing/iterating on these. See this wowhead article.

Is fix but sometimes they still spawn at werid place. Feels odd for Warrior and DK to not have much to deal with Incorporeal.

[Thirtyrock]

necro! lol

ON topic though: if you punish people for leaving its going to work the same way LFR works - people can just vote kick you and you get deserter even though you did everything right. So yeah: the issue is sometimes groups just fall apart: its all good, queue up for another - ignore/block list people

We had our healer DC after the second pull in a key this morning. Healer was still in group. We waited for like 2 minutes, then all left. Who gets deserter?

There just isn't a perfect, one-size fits all solution to this problem.

[Ragnarohk]

We had our healer DC after the second pull in a key this morning. Healer was still in group. We waited for like 2 minutes, then all left. Who gets deserter?

There just isn't a perfect, one-size fits all solution to this problem.

Make it a vote function to end the key. Majority voted to end the run? Run ends and nobody gets debuff

[Biomega]

Make it a vote function to end the key. Majority voted to end the run? Run ends and nobody gets debuff

That runs into a few issues. People will start holding groups hostage to force a vote. So you'd have to kick the person. And if kicking DOESN'T also give them Deserter, then people will just behave in a way that forces groups to kick them rather than leave and get Deserter. But if kicking DOES give them Deserter, then group leaders can maliciously troll people by kicking them and giving them Deserter. It's not a big problem in Group Finder currently because it's super low stakes shit - nobody cares about a heroic or TW dungeon, and those self-select for super casuals to begin with (since none of the tryhards would ever do a heroic). The more stakes, the higher the chance someone will abuse it somewhere.

In addition, Deserter isn't even that big a deterrent for a lot of people in manual LFG, because as a DPS it can easily take 30+ mins to find a group to begin with. So how long do you make the debuff? 2 hours? 3 hours? The harsher it is the more abuse potential from the trolls, who'll just machine-gun kick anyone for anything, even the most mundane shit. That's exactly how it used to be in say WotLK or Cata. Heck there were even people who queued with friends, then kicked the last person before the final boss because they knew they could 4-man it and it was funny to screw the other guy out of final-boss loot. I'm not saying that's going to happen specifically, but there's always potential for abuse when you give that kind of power to people in a situation where people do a lot of runs at reasonable difficulty.

That being said, I don't think a perfect solution exists. Maybe this is the best they could do, despite the problems. IDK. But if they implement a Deserter system and whatnot, they REALLY need to just give people a solo M+ queue.

[Alroxas]

That being said, I don't think a perfect solution exists.

Go back a few pages - it's basically only run in premade (pre-established) groups for M+.

they REALLY need to just give people a solo M+ queue.

This is one of the worst ideas. Consider how LFD/LFR currently puts groups together - It just looks for X tanks, Y Healers, Z DPS. It gives ZERO consideration to comp or utility.

Take this week affix with Afflicted - do you really want a group where the only decurse/dispel is on the healer? What is the healer supposed to do when an equally important dispel lands on tank? Do you enjoy -100% haste? Or how about an all melee group when you have Storming affix?

[Biomega]

Go back a few pages - it's basically only run in premade (pre-established) groups for M+.

That's not a perfect solution, because it requires people to establish and maintain the social network required to always have a premade at hand. Which is precisely what a lot of people DON'T want to have to do, and is why the group finder exists in the first place.

This is one of the worst ideas. Consider how LFD/LFR currently puts groups together - It just looks for X tanks, Y Healers, Z DPS. It gives ZERO consideration to comp or utility.

It's always a world of trade-offs. But being realistic, you don't NEED to take into account comp or utility for any but the highest of keys. For the rest, random chance is enough coverage, and it'd be extraordinarily unlikely to get a setup that literally doesn't work - if not outright impossible. Sure this would fall off if people are doing +25s or whatever, but chances are that on that level people wouldn't be using this kind of tool anyway so the point is moot.

Take this week affix with Afflicted - do you really want a group where the only decurse/dispel is on the healer? What is the healer supposed to do when an equally important dispel lands on tank? Do you enjoy -100% haste? Or how about an all melee group when you have Storming affix?

There's ways to algorithmically fix this, but the better solution is just to rework the affixes in the first place like everyone has been clamoring. Forcing things like decurse/dispel is bad design to begin with.